Hunting Dog Training & More    

Popular Searches: Garmin Astro | Dog Collars | Tri-Tronics | SPORTdog

Shooting Over Running Dogs

Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Higgins » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:09 am

Most of the videos I see show dogs chasing birds after the flush, followed by the shooter pulling the trigger (killing the bird) over the running dog. Seems to me this would be rewarding the dog for chasing and being unsteady. Wouldn't a dog rock steady on flush be preferred. Your thoughts?

Brad Higgins
http://HigginsGundogs.com
User avatar
Higgins
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Yerington, NV

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby RayGubernat » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:55 am

Higgins wrote:Most of the videos I see show dogs chasing birds after the flush, followed by the shooter pulling the trigger (killing the bird) over the running dog. Seems to me this would be rewarding the dog for chasing and being unsteady. Wouldn't a dog rock steady on flush be preferred. Your thoughts?

Brad Higgins
http://HigginsGundogs.com


Brad -

That depends on what you want from a dog and how much time and effort you are willing( or able) to put into the training. Italso depends on how willing you are to maintain that training in the field.

I currently have dead broke, rock steady dogs and that is all I have... BUT I am retired and do field trials which require the dogs to be stone dead broke.


For most of my life, I had staunch bird dogs. They would stand a bird until I got there...no matter how long that took... BUT at the first wingbeat...the race was on. I call that staunch. I generally hunted alone or with one or at most two close family members, so no worries about hitting the dog. I suppose if I guided I would want a dog that was at least steady to shot or if I hunted on dangerous terrain, like chucker hunters do, I would want a broke dog...for the safety of the dog... but that ain't what I did and certainly not what I do now. I did guide a bit with dogs that were staunch but not steady...and did fine, but the hunters/gunners knew what was expected of them and were responsible and safe.

That worked quite well for me for almost forty years. Killed a boatload of birds over a bunch of different dogs that way. I found that a dog that was allowed to break and chase at the flight of the bird would, most often, be pretty honest on its birds, holding them there on point, until I arrived on scene and rousted the bird. The dogs I had needed very little refresher training to stay staunch.

Today when I hunt, I am also training. ALWAYS training. The hunt and especially the kill is very much secondary to the dog's performance. If I feel the need to put my hands on the dog, I will put the gun down and work with the dog. If the bird flies...Oh well. I am OK with that today, but when I first started hunting, it was all about a full gamebag, so letting a bird fly off because the dog took a step...just wasn't gonna happen. Today... the dog will get to watch the bird fly off.

The level of performance you insist upon with your dog very much depends on what you yourself want to get out of the experience.

Having a dead broke dog is a thing of beauty to see, but it can be a PIA if you just want to hunt.

Different strokes for different folks. I can say that because I have been in both places.

RayG
RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3190
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:25 pm

My preference is for broke dogs. I feel there are several key advantages to them aside from aesthetics - big upside, and Ray has already mentioned the downside. I have hunted over all manner of dogs. Staunch dogs are the key to successful bird hunting and I will always choose dog over no dog regardless of training.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Trekmoor » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:53 pm

During the 25 - 30 years in which I worked brittanies and GSP's I never had a dog that was not completely steady to flush, shot and fall of game. Steadiness was essential to me for several reasons. (1) I just liked to train to that standard. (2) I wanted to field trial and not being steady to flush, shot and fall were all eliminating faults. (3) I did a lot of "guiding" for shooting parties of various sizes and very varying standards of basic gun safety. One of my dogs came very close to being shot when one of those guns was far too quick too fire, he shot a snipe the instant it rose and my dogs head was "in the way." If she had moved even a few feet as the bird flew off, she would have been a dead dog !
Complete steadiness was essential to me when working with guns like him. In case you are wondering ....yes, I blew my top at that gun and the rest of his shooting party following that very near miss and then I walked off the estate .

Bill T.
Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:10 pm

Higgins wrote:Most of the videos I see show dogs chasing birds after the flush, followed by the shooter pulling the trigger (killing the bird) over the running dog. Seems to me this would be rewarding the dog for chasing and being unsteady. Wouldn't a dog rock steady on flush be preferred. Your thoughts?

Brad Higgins
http://HigginsGundogs.com

It would .
I bet some of those good ole' dawg men are the same ones who say 'The game teaches the dog' ? Perhaps they are missing the point , no wait, They got the point , but missed the last part ,no wait, they got the bird , but the whole point was missed.
Spaniels flush Too!.. Vive la Flusher .
ps.
Brad, when I first seen your Post header 'Shooting Over Running Dogs' I was looking forward to some Greyhounds . lol :mrgreen:
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:10 pm

slistoe wrote: Staunch dogs are the key to successful bird hunting and I will always choose dog over no dog regardless of training.


I don't know how you can say staunch dog's are the key to successful bird hunting. As long as the dog is steady to flush, that's all the average guy needs or wants. There are far more birds killed every year over dog's that are only steady until the flush than over broke dog's. Why? There ain't many broke dog's out there.

Most hunters that don't trial, which is most hunters, simply aren't interested in putting in the time necessary for a broke dog.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 4399
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:21 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Most hunters that don't trial, which is most hunters, simply aren't interested in putting in the time necessary for a broke dog.

Curiously over here Gonehuntin' most Trial'ers are not 'Hunters'. Those that are , are far more successful in 'Trials' over here.
I'm sure that many assume that it's just a matter of breeding and the dog doing all the work .
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Higgins » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:23 pm

Hello gonehuntin'

For this conversation, I want to make sure I understand the descriptions of the levels of steadiness. As described here, a "staunch" dog is a dog that is steady UNTIL the flush. When the bird flushes, he chases. A dog that is "steady to flush" is a dog that remains steady even though the bird has flushed. This would also be a "broke" dog.

How would we describe a dog that is steady to flush, shot and fall?
User avatar
Higgins
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Yerington, NV

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby blanked » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:05 pm

Ray G
How would your staunch dogs react to running birds

React to backing situations
blanked
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:58 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby blanked » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:11 pm

I don't know how you can say staunch dog's are the key to successful bird hunting. As long as the dog is steady to flush, that's all the average guy needs or wants. There are far more birds killed every year over dog's that are only steady until the flush than over broke dog's. Why? There ain't many broke dog's out there.

Most hunters that don't trial, which is most hunters, simply aren't interested in putting in the time necessary for a broke dog.[/quote]



Steady to flush means lost birds. Cripple birds need a dog to be right on it as soon as possible
blanked
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:58 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:13 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
slistoe wrote: Staunch dogs are the key to successful bird hunting and I will always choose dog over no dog regardless of training.


I don't know how you can say staunch dog's are the key to successful bird hunting. As long as the dog is steady to flush, that's all the average guy needs or wants. There are far more birds killed every year over dog's that are only steady until the flush than over broke dog's. Why? There ain't many broke dog's out there.

Most hunters that don't trial, which is most hunters, simply aren't interested in putting in the time necessary for a broke dog.

Perhaps you aren't up to speed on terminology?

Staunch dogs stand their game till the handler moves in - then all bets are off.
Steady dogs, or broke dogs stand till they are given permission to move.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:14 pm

blanked wrote:
Steady to flush means lost birds. Cripple birds need a dog to be right on it as soon as possible

That is the most often quipped fallacy.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:18 pm

Higgins wrote:Hello gonehuntin'

For this conversation, I want to make sure I understand the descriptions of the levels of steadiness. As described here, a "staunch" dog is a dog that is steady UNTIL the flush. When the bird flushes, he chases. A dog that is "steady to flush" is a dog that remains steady even though the bird has flushed. This would also be a "broke" dog.

How would we describe a dog that is steady to flush, shot and fall?

It is only is the NAVHDA book that I have seen steady broken down into various nuances. I have never really understood what practical purpose it served.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Chukar12 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:45 pm

Always makes me wonder when people who proclaim one way or another, that steady to kill and release or steady to flush is more efficient for downed birds; have they trained and employed both levels? For most I suspect not, but they do emphatically espouse an opinion. Can you more accurately Mark a moving/falling item at a run or still and watching. Circumstances vary and what is "better" is often circumstantial. For the record, I do know the original poster has trained more dogs than I likely ever will and darn sure has an educated opinion
User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby oldbeek » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:35 pm

I had a dog shot on flush so I train to stay till shot. Had my current dog holding till fetch command. She cheated back to stay till shot. With lots of wild quail shooting this year, she cheated back to leaving on flush. Next trip the grandkids will do the shooting while I will run the collar. Time for a tune up. i want stay till shot.
User avatar
oldbeek
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:47 pm
Location: Lancaster CA

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:08 am

Higgins wrote:Hello gonehuntin'

For this conversation, I want to make sure I understand the descriptions of the levels of steadiness. As described here, a "staunch" dog is a dog that is steady UNTIL the flush. When the bird flushes, he chases. A dog that is "steady to flush" is a dog that remains steady even though the bird has flushed. This would also be a "broke" dog.

How would we describe a dog that is steady to flush, shot and fall?


To me, that's a fully broke dog. Now understand I don't trial so may not use the exact terminology you fellas do. So In your terminology, a staunch dog is all the average hunter requires.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 4399
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby blanked » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:23 am

Even before the flush..... a dog that is not allowed to relocate on running birds means lost birds


Bird hunters that expect a broke dog hunt a very narrow window of wild upland birds
blanked
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:58 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Timewise65 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:51 am

As a guy who hunts and trains retrievers....I would never "shoot" over one of my dogs! They are trained to "release only on command"! This training is primarily for waterfowl hunting. We retriever guys know that shooting over a dog that 'breaks' on shot will in time result in a dog that cannot hear! Or a wounded or dead dog! When I run my dog in Hunt Tests one of the primary things they test is that the Dog hold steady, and only releases on command.

Taking this into upland game, our dogs work always staying within forty to fifty yards out. I can tell if they are on scent and their tails 'flag' and they slow way down. When I see they are close to the bird, I give them a whistle sit command. They sit and we move up, they I release the dog! When the birds flush, the dog will not follow until I give the release command....

Admittedly, this is not a 100% senario....so all hunting with me are directed before the hunt to never take a shot that is not above the horizon. I don't hunt with strangers, so luckily I have never had a dog injured or shot while hunting.
Timewise65
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:30 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby RayGubernat » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:08 am

blanked wrote:Ray G
How would your staunch dogs react to running birds

React to backing situations


Blanked -

If the birds were running, I would expect(read HOPE!!) that the dog would not commit to a point until the bird was cut off and stopped. Pheasants can be a real SOB in that regard, but I have witnessd, and have myself owned one dog, that would outrun and turn back and trap, or simply stop a running pheasant between us. Not every dog is capable of this, but there are some that are and they are a treasure.

You deal with what you have. Not all bird dogs are created equal. Not all dogs have had the same opportunities to learn their craft.

If a dog remains on point as the bird runs out from under, I can usually tell by the dog's demeanor(let down). Very often, if I release that dog, they would go straight for where the sneaky little bastard bird ran to, because they stood there and watched and listened as it made its exit. I, for one would never discourage a dog for standing there and waiting for me...even if the bird got away. That is still a good bird dog...to me. I say that because the dog waited...for ME. The dog held...for ME. That cannot be a bad thing.

As far as the other thing...I INSIST that my dogs back on sight. No excuses. Honoring another dog's point in the field is not optional and failure to do that will bring down the hammer from me.

RayG
RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3190
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:54 pm

Timewise65 wrote:As a guy who hunts and trains retrievers....I would never "shoot" over one of my dogs! They are trained to "release only on command"! This training is primarily for waterfowl hunting. We retriever guys know that shooting over a dog that 'breaks' on shot will in time result in a dog that cannot hear! [b]Or a wounded or dead dog![/b] When I run my dog in Hunt Tests one of the primary things they test is that the Dog hold steady, and only releases on command.

Taking this into upland game, our dogs work always staying within forty to fifty yards out. I can tell if they are on scent and their tails 'flag' and they slow way down. When I see they are close to the bird, I give them a whistle sit command. They sit and we move up, they I release the dog! When the birds flush, the dog will not follow until I give the release command....

Admittedly, this is not a 100% senario....so all hunting with me are directed before the hunt to never take a shot that is not above the horizon. I don't hunt with strangers, so luckily I have never had a dog injured or shot while hunting.

?
This would need a whole thread on it's own for me to get my head round :roll:
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:22 pm

averageguy wrote:I want my dog to relocate on running birds on its own.

Wisconsin ? Contact Timewise 65. :roll:
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Sharon » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:41 pm

oldbeek wrote:I had a dog shot on flush so I train to stay till shot. Had my current dog holding till fetch command. She cheated back to stay till shot. With lots of wild quail shooting this year, she cheated back to leaving on flush. Next trip the grandkids will do the shooting while I will run the collar. Time for a tune up. i want stay till shot.


Big problems with beagles flushing rabbits too. I had a beagle killed by a friend. Too bad we can't teach beagles to hold on the flush. :)
User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 7946
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Featherfinder » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:29 am

There are a number of dynamics in this post as I see it. The first being what you could call steady to wing, shot and fall or steady until released. If you are going to trial and hunt your dog, this is not an option. It is required.
The distinct two views are that a dog that releases itself after the shot is on the bird sooner, especially if it's a cripple. In the real world, the species you hunt and terrain plays a HUGE part in this philosophy too.
The other school of thought says, "Aside from the safe-keeping of my dog (as per Sharon's example) especially if you are hunting with folk that have never hunted over dogs, the completely steady dog is preferred because he holds his ground and better marks the fallen bird." Their view being that if a dog self-releases on a dead bird, he still needs to negotiate dense cover, trees, fences, etc. and can more easily loose his mark anyway.
Now, as for the self-relocating dog - which is something I like to see in my dogs - there is a misconception that a self relocating dog is more likely to bump a runner. A bumped bird is NEVER acceptable to me, whether the dog nails the holding bird or self-relocates on a runner. Either that or you need to buck up on excuses for your misbehaving dog. Those same excuses are typically part-and-parcel of why your dog bumps when relocating. While NO dog gets it right 100% of the time making excuses for a bump bird is a recipe for even more bumped birds! I refuse to shoot at ANY bumped birds....period.
Finally, the flushing pointer does have it's place. This is how it's "supposed" to work. I am hunting woodcock/grouse in nasty dense cover with typical deadfalls, etc. I might prefer to hunt by myself so I ask you, "What do I do when my dog is standing a find in a deadfall along with dense dogwood on the perimeter?" If I try to flush, I can't even get my gun to my shoulder in that tangle!
Here's what might work very well for the solo hunter. Once you try to figure your best shoot-able position for the flush (obviously you don't KNOW where the bird will flush but...) you then release the dog for the flush. Now here's the part most folk don't understand - the dog rips in flushes the bird for you, THEN STANDS STEADY (not unlike the "hup" for flushers) until released or after the shot. For that solo hunter, he has the best of both worlds.
Again, my dogs are completely steady until released but.....who am I to judge?
The other issue for me regarding the dog that breaks on the flush or shot is, supposing your dog points a bird, you walk in and flush, then your dog breaks to go retrieve the shot bird and runs over another bird(s)? Anyway, at the end of the day there are even more variables you could offer, so if you're happy....so am I!
User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Higgins » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:45 am

Allowing the dogs to flush birds on my cue has been a very useful hunting technique. I use a verbal "alright" cue. The dogs do an aggressive flush and an immediate stop to that flush. Here is a video I did a while ago. It shows a Vizsla working a single chukar. You'll see in the video the dog had done a great job of stalking and setting the bird up for the flush. The first time I gave her the "alright" cue, she jumps in but the bird had moved a bit since she pointed. She does the right thing. She sets it up again. The interesting part is that since I have been training the dogs to flush/stop on my cue, they have all become much more steady and trustworthy. Who would have guessed that allowing dogs to flush birds would make them more steady.

https://youtu.be/hSlokTfOGW0

All the dog I work with are trained and encouraged to stalk their prey. No creeping, only stalking. The difference is in the intent. Creeping is moving toward a bird to see, flush or catch it. That is a bad thing. Stalking is different. Predators us stalking (including pointing) to establish where the target is. It's a beautiful balancing act. Too little pressure and the prey keeps running ahead. Too much pressure and the bird flushes prematurely. I have found that there is no better way to build natural style, intensity and drive. I have some stalking videos too for those that are interested.

Brad Higgins
http://HigginsGundogs.com
User avatar
Higgins
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Yerington, NV

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:04 am

Higgins wrote:Allowing the dogs to flush birds on my cue has been a very useful hunting technique. I use a verbal "alright" cue. The dogs do an aggressive flush and an immediate stop to that flush. Here is a video I did a while ago. It shows a Vizsla working a single chukar. You'll see in the video the dog had done a great job of stalking and setting the bird up for the flush. The first time I gave her the "alright" cue, she jumps in but the bird had moved a bit since she pointed. She does the right thing. She sets it up again. The interesting part is that since I have been training the dogs to flush/stop on my cue, they have all become much more steady and trustworthy. Who would have guessed that allowing dogs to flush birds would make them more steady.

https://youtu.be/hSlokTfOGW0

All the dog I work with are trained and encouraged to stalk their prey. No creeping, only stalking. The difference is in the intent. Creeping is moving toward a bird to see, flush or catch it. That is a bad thing. Stalking is different. Predators us stalking (including pointing) to establish where the target is. It's a beautiful balancing act. Too little pressure and the prey keeps running ahead. Too much pressure and the bird flushes prematurely. I have found that there is no better way to build natural style, intensity and drive. I have some stalking videos too for those that are interested.

Brad Higgins
http://HigginsGundogs.com


100% agree. It is incredibly useful for HUNTER to have a dog that flushes on command.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 4399
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Bedight » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:06 pm

All of my dogs have been steady to wing and shot, takes a couple of months to train in their first year and it's not difficult,( the downside is that is does take a lot of birds steady a pointing dog, so can be expensive) but IMO has big upside and almost no downside. I often hunt with several others, can't always trust them not to shoot at low fliers with dogs leaping into the line of fire. My dogs are always safely on point until I release them. The steady dogs have rarely failed to find dead or crippled birds, that's what that great nose is for.
I can always trial my dogs because they are steady. Steady dogs seem to know the difference between hunting and field trials and are more intense on point in a trial, more observant & careful when hunting. When birds (usually Pheasants) run, my dogs have all had "tells" when on point that allow me to release them to relocate, point again and again be steady.

If the birds flush or run before I can get to the dog, I wouldn't have been able shoot anyway and the dog will find them again, that's what that great nose is for........................

Finally, steady dogs are a joy to watch do their job with style and grace..........
Bedight
Rank: Junior Hunter
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:28 pm
Location: George, WA

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby mrelite » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:31 pm

averageguy wrote:Hard to know if less experienced folks who might read these threads gain any insights from them or not.


I am a first year pointer owner and I dissect these posts the best I can, generally I get what most post and feel some of it is extremely pertinent to what is happening in my current events, everyones insight is very much appreciated.
Since my dog and I are going through our first hunting season right now I am learning what I want from my dog and why I want it, I think going through actual hunting scenarios with my dog has given me the insight to take the insight of the experienced and somewhat learn from it and hopefully apply it to my training.

After going out with my dog I can see the importance of having a dog stay steady at least until shot, we repeatedly had big covey's of quail flushing all around us, birds were flushing from all directions and because the dog broke at flush makes things a little hectic and not what I wanted. I want the dog to be focused on going after a falling bird so that after the bird is in hand I can release a little more composed dog after any birds that still are holding tight and then we will go after the birds that flew. I do not want my dog chasing after the covey when I just shot a bird! LOL after I shot a bird in one direction I turned to see my dog taking off in the wrong direction and now we both don't know where the dead bird is because I had to recall an excited dog then get him to the area the dead bird is in, but all the while the dog is saying "no the birds went that way". Breaking at flush on single birds and small groups of birds were not that big a deal but when you need the dog to hold you gotta train for steady to shot all of the time, at least thats what I am after for next years season. At this point my dog is very steady to flush........LOL we will get there!

I have watched more dog hunting vids then I care to mention and I would say 95% of them the dogs break at flush, some go towards the shot at bird and many times they are going after a different bird, people shooting over running dogs, birds and dogs going in all different directions, people almost shooting other people, the biggest thing I have taken from them is to be careful who you hunt with!!
Attachments
20171223_124141.jpg
20171223_124141.jpg (599.58 KiB) Viewed 5919 times
User avatar
mrelite
Rank: Junior Hunter
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:10 pm
Location: New Mexico

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:58 pm

Higgins wrote:Most of the videos I see show dogs chasing birds after the flush, followed by the shooter pulling the trigger (killing the bird) over the running dog. Seems to me this would be rewarding the dog for chasing and being unsteady.

Brad Higgins

Yes it would.... 'What else would anyone think it would be doing' ?
Then comes the reasons why some don't ..... :lol:
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Featherfinder » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:19 pm

mrelite, first off....that is a very nice dog you have there!
You are dead on when you mention that you need to have good hunting partners. You'd be surprised how challenging it can be to get partners that understand/respect your goals for you dog. Some just want to kill things so their primary rule is: "If it flies, it dies."
If you have a young dog that you want brought along just right, it is especially important to be selective of your hunting partner(s). Sometimes, the ones with just enough experience to be dangerous are the worst to have along.
The bottom line is, it's your dog and you need to be both clear and firm about how you want pup to develop. You are allowed to get it wrong...but only once. :wink:
Last edited by Featherfinder on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Timewise65 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:28 pm

polmaise wrote:?

This would need a whole thread on it's own for me to get my head round :roll:


I completely understand your comments.....from what I know about the way you hunt in Scotland, I would need more than a 'thread' to get my head around that also....and if we start talking about Retrievers....double that comment!
Timewise65
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:30 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Featherfinder » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:23 am

That is a nice looking dog you have there averageguy! Thanks for the pics.
Remember, we all have our own preferences which include where we hunt, how we hunt, what we hunt, etc. Just think of those three entities and you realize how wide a spectrum of responses you can elicit from coast-to-coast!
Consistency can be approximated via competitive events - for the most part - where the expectations are reasonably clear. Again, if you want to hunt your dog and trial your dog, you need to understand that it is much easier on your dog to maintain a consistent level of expectation. You don't HAVE TO, but it just makes it easier in general. If you hunt your dog only, you can do so as you please.
I had one chap that was THRILLED with his pointing dog because it would catch many of the pheasants at the game farm. His exact words were, "I save on shot shells!" !?!?!?!
I'd save on shot shells too. I'd only need one. :lol: (Never lose your sense of humor.)
User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:36 am

averageguy there is one thing you are overlooking in your zeal to slag the standard - just because a dog WILL stand till released regardless of what happens in front of them does not mean that they have to stand there every time, all the time. The handler is free to choose to release the dog at any point in time. If it is perceived to be an advantage in a particular situation to have the dog leaving quickly a simple "alright" or "fetch" or whatever command the dog is trained for will send it on the way as quickly and reliably as the dog that self releases.
I currently do not hunt over steady dogs because of the time and resources required to do so, but I have no delusions or fabrications of any perceived benefit to such other than a reduction of effort on my part.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:13 pm

averageguy wrote:Calling out a voice command to release a dog to retrieve is an unproductive warning to late season public lands roosters which are already difficult enough without it.

To each their own. I know how to best train and handle my dogs for my objectives and do.

Calling my view on this "a delusion or fabrication of a perceived benefit" is representative of the kind of slights found throughout this thread.

Did you think about what you wrote before you posted it? If I have just fired a shot at and hit a rooster I would hardly think that commanding my dog to fetch would be the "straw" that causes all the rest of the roosters to do whatever it is you think they are going to do with the "warning".
For sure to each their own. As I said before, I would choose to hunt over a dog that is not staunch rather than go with no dog, but I would bet 95% of hunters wouldn't want to. Hunt with a pug if you want to. It is all good to me and I hope you get out often and enjoy your time in the field.
But make no mistake. There will be no feigning a slight on my part here. If you want to put forth any reason other than "I don't feel like/know how to keeping them steady" as a reason for dogs breaking on birds then you are deluded or are fabricating benefits. That is not a slight on your dogs in any way. And I think that "I don't feel like it" is a perfectly acceptable reason to not steady dogs. There is no need to falsify a justification for the action. Train the dogs to whatever serviceable level you feel like and take them to the field. Have fun with them. That's what I do.

BTW - steady is not a Field Trial standard, it is the standard in every venue ever developed over the course of history for the evaluation of pointing dogs.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:13 pm

averageguy wrote:Nothing unnerves a late season public land rooster worse than a human voice.

And here I thought it was the truck door slamming that was the consummate error. I haven't encountered many birds that are tolerant of gunfire, but they exist where you hunt so do as you have to.

averageguy wrote:I am not advocating a dog "break on birds" unless you mislabel a dog relocating on birds that moved out from its point, as "breaking on birds". I do want my dogs to relocate on running birds on their own and they do. I have relayed based on my experience hunting wild birds that requiring the dog to stand steady to fall waiting to be released to retrieve is not optimal to swiftly recovering shot birds and moving on to the next ones.

Obviously I can train my dog to be steady to WSF because I did and he demonstrated the results in his Prize I UT test at 18 months of age. I do not subsequently require him to continue to be steady to fall when hunting.

Calling a dog self releasing to retrieve after the birds have flown, shots have gone off and birds fell, as a dog "breaking on birds" as you just posted is an erroneous characterization of my very clear on the subject posts in this thread. Not the first one time it has happened in this thread and that is why I worked hard to be clear in additional posts.

It is obvious some have a need to make my posts into something they are not. Oh well I tried and think that perhaps some will see value in them even if you do not.

I'm not sure what you think I am making up from your post. A dog that goes without being told to is breaking. If the dog self released it is breaking. I really don't know why you seem upset that the term applies to your dog. We choose to hunt with steady dogs or breaking dogs. Whatever. I was simply pointing out that the advantage you are espousing does not really exist.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:33 pm

Ok. I will concede that when hunting in an area where any human vocalization will instantly negate all further opportunities to find any birds, a breaking dog will garner a distinct advantage over a steady dog :roll:


Of course there is the possibility that a person desiring the steady dog could train a whistle command to release in the event they find themselves in that part of the country where birds that weren't spooked by the 100 dB shotgun blasts clear out of the country by the single 50 dB word that follows.

I have mischaracterized nothing. Steady is steady, and breaking is breaking. A dog is either steady, or it breaks. You claimed a distinct advantage to the dog that breaks on shot (or was it on fall?). I said the steady dog can be sent on shot (or fall?) should the hunter choose - resulting in the identical action. Ergo no discernible advantage to the breaking dog. For some reason you took umbrage with that.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Featherfinder » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:49 am

Although I tap my dogs to send them, I occasionally use "dead bird" to quick-release my dog(s) on wild birds. They must remain steady...period. It is rare that I lose a bird that I stone however a poorly hit bird brings with it it's own challenges and a expedited release can help. I personally enjoy my dog's performance first and foremost. So, I enjoy my steady to WSF dogs as much as I do watching them apply themselves, their gait, how they negotiate probable objectives, including style on point. I believe NONE of us enjoy the fact that occasionally we lose a bird. For me, the challenge has been at the forefront of the process - my choice for taking a bird. That is where the ethics begin. Couple this to practice with your scattergun while ensuring you have what you need to be efficient (gun/shells/gear). In summary, I screw up more than my dogs do. Then again, what's new?
User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:56 am

Average guy, it is nice to have you on the forum and I certainly hope you learn to communicate without taking a difference of opinion or a comment about your training methods as a personal insult and then feeling you need to return it. For instance,
Slistoe, Your posts reveal you have little experience hunting wild pressured pheasants.
There is absolutely no indication of that and if you knew who you were talking to, you would never had said of even thought it. You keep commenting on how good you and your dog really are and I would guess thee is some truth to that, but there are many people on here that are just as dedicated as you are, have a great deal more experience, and are willing to share some of the knowledge they have obtained over the years they have hunted, trained, and judged dog professionally. For your information, Slistoe just happens to slip into that category. To tell you the truth, I doubt if anyone of us agrees completely with any other individual but all that shows is there are different methods to get to where we all are going. Think about it, maybe change the tone of your post and you will find others will change also when trying to have a conversation with you. Hope you understand what I am trying to say and you will be a contributing member to our group. Happy New Year.
User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 16574
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby slistoe » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:51 am

averageguy wrote:More telling you admit you do not put out the effort to train your dogs to be steady to WSF and yet you sit at the keyboard lecturing a guy who did train his dog to be steady to WSF (and whose dog was judged highly proficient at that level of work at a very young age) all about it.

I doubt it will make much difference to your smugness, but of the three pointing dogs I currently hunt with the 10 year old is a broke dog - as were the dozen or so before him. The 6 year old and 3 year old are not - circumstances and time priorities change and I hunt them as staunch dogs.
When the young dog was in it's first couple years and had trouble locating a shot bird I just called over the older, experienced broke dog. Even though he had no involvement in the event around the bird - at times he would have even been in the truck some 1/2 hour or more away - and he would track down and find the bird. IMO experience trumps speed, but I have never been against giving the dog a headstart by releasing them quickly if I felt there was a need.
I have taken it under advisement however that in some circumstances, somewhere that I have yet to encounter, there are birds that will be fully comfortable where they are at with a dog racing through the cover, a trodding human footstepping all over and shotguns going off, but will skedaddle at the first utterance of a spoken command. When I come across it I will now be prepared to adjust accordingly.
slistoe
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby bustingcover » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:20 am

I will never understand why people take personal offense towards others who chose to do something differently. It really doesn't matter.

But for the record there's unhinged, green-broke, and broke. Idk where all the other classifications came from.
User avatar
bustingcover
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:16 am
Location: PNW

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:06 pm

we don't often delete people posts unless they are something that shouldn't be read on a forum. Otherwise they are left so others can see and learn. I am sorry to think there is nothing on a forum that is probably the most successful learning forum of this type ever. Comeback if you change your mind as your contribution will be here. Thanks for participating.

Ezzy
User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 16574
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:51 pm

ezzy333 wrote:we don't often delete people posts unless they are something that shouldn't be read on a forum. Otherwise they are left so others can see and learn. I am sorry to think there is nothing on a forum that is probably the most successful learning forum of this type ever. Comeback if you change your mind as your contribution will be here. Thanks for participating.

Ezzy

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year .
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby averageguy » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:16 pm

ezzy333 wrote:we don't often delete people posts unless they are something that shouldn't be read on a forum. Otherwise they are left so others can see and learn. I am sorry to think there is nothing on a forum that is probably the most successful learning forum of this type ever. Comeback if you change your mind as your contribution will be here. Thanks for participating.

Ezzy


Hey ezzy333,

Just so I am clear. A post telling the new guy he is "deluded or fabricating benefits" if he sees an advantage to a dog self releasing to retrieve a downed bird is ok.

But a response to posts advocating yelling voice commands to a dog or blowing a whistle would indicate the poster lacks experience hunting pressured public area wild pheasants, is not.

Hmmm. Those are some pretty confusing ground rules.

Pretty clear a new guy best not wade in with a different opinion on this board. Rest assured I won't again.
averageguy
Rank: Master Hunter
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:28 pm

averageguy wrote: Rest assured I won't again.

Is that your last , or your very last ? :mrgreen:
C'mon Sharon that has to be funny ?? lol
'averageguy' you obviously ain't average so take a breather perhaps and chill a while ?
Personally it don't matter.
If it does ...who cares ? :lol:
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Sharon » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:24 pm

How was your holiday Bud? :) I think this has been an excellent discussion on the subject- generally polite. You should talk about how spaniels are taught to sit and stay on flush and then released. I'd like to learn more about spaniels.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I hope you do wade in with different opinions average guy. You are not an average guy, you have a lot of experience obviously. This is not just any forum; it is full of experienced gun dog handlers. You can add a lot too.


( average guy: using just a dot as an answer is not acceptable on here. )
User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 7946
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:28 pm

Sharon wrote:How was your holiday Bud? :) I think this has been an excellent discussion on the subject- generally polite. You should talk about how spaniels are taught to sit and stay on flush and then released. I'd like to learn more about spaniels.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I hope you do wade in with different opinions average guy. You are not an average guy, you have a lot of experience obviously. This is not just any forum; it is full of experienced gun dog handlers. You can add a lot too.


( average guy: using just a dot as an answer is not acceptable on here. )

Agree !!!
Mind you , ...You never know everything do you ? :mrgreen:
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby Sharon » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:02 pm

You're going to get it one of these days. :)
User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 7946
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:08 pm

averageguy wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:we don't often delete people posts unless they are something that shouldn't be read on a forum. Otherwise they are left so others can see and learn. I am sorry to think there is nothing on a forum that is probably the most successful learning forum of this type ever. Comeback if you change your mind as your contribution will be here. Thanks for participating.

Ezzy


Hey ezzy333,

Just so I am clear. A post telling the new guy he is "deluded or fabricating benefits" if he sees an advantage to a dog self releasing to retrieve a downed bird is ok.

But a response to posts advocating yelling voice commands to a dog or blowing a whistle would indicate the poster lacks experience hunting pressured public area wild pheasants, is not.

Hmmm. Those are some pretty confusing ground rules.

Pretty clear a new guy best not wade in with a different opinion on this board. Rest assured I won't again.
being a new guy has nothing to do with it, Attitude does. There are plenty of old guys on here that probably agree with you and they are still here and haven't threatened to quit or told an old guy it is evident he has no experience that has been hunting trialing judging and teaching though not always as well as he could. That is a problem a lot of old guys have trouble with.
User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 16574
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:18 pm

Sharon wrote:You're going to get it one of these days. :)

yup!
Attachments
IMAG0165.JPG
IMAG0165.JPG (1.53 MiB) Viewed 5333 times
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby crackerd » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:37 am

polmaise wrote:
Sharon wrote:You're going to get it one of these days. :)

yup!


Sharon, just don't ask what we're going to get one one of these days when Robt. gets it - the one-way ticket to the realm of North American gundogs, that is. It'll be fun.

Enjoying this thread from the trialer/hunter/retriever uber alles cheap seats - Scott's input most of all. To that end, the human voice - said to spook those wary wild birds at the drop of a cymbal, er syllable - for releasing a retriever (or spaniel) for a fall seldom rises above 30 dB - or about the sound of your 25-year-old Frigidaire self-defrosting freezer humming away...

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Shooting Over Running Dogs

Postby polmaise » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:57 pm

Sharon wrote: I think this has been an excellent discussion on the subject- generally polite. You should talk about how spaniels are taught to sit and stay on flush and then released. I'd like to learn more about spaniels.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:) ..So would I ...lol
I have a Vizsla pup been with us since it was 10 weeks old ,it's now just under 6 months . It has been trained just the same as the Spaniels ,just without the 'sit to flush' ;) ...It does 'Stop to Shot' and it does 'Stop to flush' . We started with the 'R' part in 'HPR' :wink:
Steadier and more mature with a delivery to 'shot game' than many beyond them years ..Retrievers and Pointers and Spaniels alike who have 'Been rewarded' with the 'Chase or Catch' ? as I reckon the OP was alluding too in the original post .
Y'all can make up scenarios that suit your style or preference or 'Indifference' ..It comes down to simple stuff like 'Is the dog Employed and working with you' or 'Self employed and working for it'self' when it 'breaks' on a shot bird . (I have two barrels on my gun, I often shoot two birds ,which one does the dog go for ,the shot dead one or the cripple? ) :mrgreen: .. I have a hundred more reasons for or against.
I like it when both the dog or dogs because often there is more than One man and his dog' .
btw 'Crackerd' ..That bit about talking and noise and decibels a ringing on the prairie........... What about all that 'Singing on horseback' ?..that must scare the Sh*t out a some Roosters :roll: :lol:
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Next

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

| Pedigrees

THIS POST : Shooting Over Running Dogs brought to you by Gun Dog Supply: Dog Training Collars & Hunting Dog Supplies

Click here to tweet this post

  • NOT logged in
  • Shooting Over Running Dogs
  • ./viewtopic.php?f=89&t=52682&start=0&sid=ad0508b37308cc49b4915cbb4aa373d8