Gun Dog Forum

I tried to search this topic but got so many results wih none actually telling me the process.

Those of you that use this method, could you give me instructions on how to do it?

Thank You

That is not the way I do it...but...

I did a quick search and I came across a video by Buck Daniels of Daniels Creek Kennels that explains the process. The trainer starts with a checkcord and a flank hitch. So should you. Do it silently as much as possible. If you issue a verbal command, issue it ONCE and do it in a calm voice at a very low level.

Once the pup or dog is responding correctly to the checkcord and flank hitch you can overlay the e-collar...at a VERY low level...like 1. When you issue the stim, use momentary mode and ONE stim. When I say OVERLAY I mean use both simultaneously. A very gentle pop with the cord and a very low momentary stim.

RayG

There's a really good piece discussing this in the most recent pointing dog journal.

I use this an integral part of my training. The check cord on the flank is the critical foundation to this process. As with ANY e-collar process the discipline is in the person with the controller. If this is done incorrectly, you may instill some serious issues on your dog.
I remember when folk used to say, "NEVER use and e-collar on your dogs around birds. :roll:
As is most often the case, it's not the e-collar that is the issue.
Because I rarely speak to my dogs when hunting them (and absolutely NO whistles!), silence itself actually speaks volumes to your dog. As with all e-collar processes there should be no connection to you. So, the birds are the reason the dog learns to hold reliably.
I do not use the nick function on my e-collars. For that matter, it could be removed completely on my collars. The level of stim is most critical and because every dog is different, it is typically the dog that determines both level and duration of stim.
I re-iterate, the foundation check cord work must be complete before you overlay the e-collar, etc.

I'd like to tell you how to do it but I don't know. Been using the original Delmar Smith system about 30 yrs now and it's never failed me. Seem's to me that putting an e-collar on the dog's waist just doesn't appeal to me. Beside's I'm pretty much stuck on staying with what works for me.

Whenever people ask about this, I reply "Why"? For many of us the dog will live his life with an ecollar on the neck. Putting an ecollar on the flank is the most unnatural thing possible you can do to the dog. Train him with the collar on his neck. If you put it on the flank, you'll have to transition to the neck later anyhow.

Featherfinder wrote:I use this an integral part of my training. The check cord on the flank is the critical foundation to this process. As with ANY e-collar process the discipline is in the person with the controller. If this is done incorrectly, you may instill some serious issues on your dog.
I remember when folk used to say, "NEVER use and e-collar on your dogs around birds. :roll:
As is most often the case, it's not the e-collar that is the issue.
Because I rarely speak to my dogs when hunting them (and absolutely NO whistles!), silence itself actually speaks volumes to your dog. As with all e-collar processes there should be no connection to you. So, the birds are the reason the dog learns to hold reliably.
I do not use the nick function on my e-collars. For that matter, it could be removed completely on my collars. The level of stim is most critical and because every dog is different, it is typically the dog that determines both level and duration of stim.
I re-iterate, the foundation check cord work must be complete before you overlay the e-collar, etc.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Now I didn't know that. Considering the success you have had though I wouldn't question your technique.

Try these links.
http://huntsmith.com/article.php?id=15
http://huntsmith.com/article.php?id=16

You don't teach whoa with the collar - you teach it with the cord and then transition to the collar for reinforcement and conditioning work.

DonF wrote:I'd like to tell you how to do it but I don't know. Been using the original Delmar Smith system about 30 yrs now and it's never failed me. Seem's to me that putting an e-collar on the dog's waist just doesn't appeal to me. Beside's I'm pretty much stuck on staying with what works for me.

And Rick Smith is the one that popularized the use of the collar on the belly.

Ferrell Miller, said he had real success with teaching Whoa with the collar on the belly, with another collar on the neck to enforce, here, turn and other commands.

Gonehuntin' , I don't believe you understand the application of the e-collar on the waist or you would realize that there is absolutely no need to transition from the e-collar on the waist to the e-collar on the neck. Perhaps I can over-simply it this way: The use of the e-collar on the neck is the steering while the use on the waist is the brakes.
Done properly, you get a wonderfully reliable steady dog that handles like a dream.....minus the hacking/whistling. Dogs trained this way elect to hold reliably of their own volition rather than through threat of correction or discipline BUT it goes hand-in-hand with the early bird work experiences on birds that flush naturally without launchers, kick-cages, tethers, cardboard or garden hose. I control the outcome AND where dogs that chose to do it against the rules are corrected predominantly by the birds.
Since, my dogs are often "found" on point on wild birds rather than whoaed into point, it all seems to come together nicely.....VERY nicely. Silence speaks volumes!!

Featherfinder wrote:The use of the e-collar on the neck is the steering while the use on the waist is the brakes.

My observation is that ecollar stimulation on the neck causes the dog to move to avoid discomfort - he moves to comply with the command, or if the command is to whoa, he at least slightly moves his feet or head/neck which takes the feet with them. With the collar on the flank for whoa, the dog doesn’t move his feet at all since the only movement to avoid stim is an upward scrunch of the belly. Feet stay put.

At a Rick Smith seminar I attended, he explained that for dogs that need to learn to sit, place the flank collar with the prongs on the back so that the stim avoidance movement is downward - exactly what the trainer wants.

Ecollar location matters

I use the same process you mentioned (prongs on top) Shags when working with flushers but after the preliminary foundation work without the e-collar has been fully completed.

I use the flank ecollar, and there is one point that I haven't seen anyone mention. I start with the cord around the flank and a 'whoa' post, and then transition to a flank ecollar. I agree with the post about the collar on the neck being steering and the collar on the flank being the brakes. I do, however, eventually transition both to the neck. The point that I haven't seen mentioned is that I use continuous stimulation on the flank and momentary on the neck. When I transition to the neck, I continue to use momentary to enforce handling, and continuous to enforce 'whoa'. The dog knows the difference.

A recent example with an older, broke dog. I had a dog pointing in heavy cover. A second dog came on the scene and there was no way he could see the pointing dog. Second dog is wearing a neck collar only. I gave the second dog a low level, continuous stimulation. This stopped the second dog in his tracks until he was released after flush and shot. He knew that continuous stimulation was 'whoa'.

slistoe wrote:

DonF wrote:I'd like to tell you how to do it but I don't know. Been using the original Delmar Smith system about 30 yrs now and it's never failed me. Seem's to me that putting an e-collar on the dog's waist just doesn't appeal to me. Beside's I'm pretty much stuck on staying with what works for me.

And Rick Smith is the one that popularized the use of the collar on the belly.

Ya I know that. I'd stick to what I know and if I didn't have a clue, I'd suspect a collar goes around the neck.

Featherfinder wrote:Gonehuntin' , I don't believe you understand the application of the e-collar on the waist or you would realize that there is absolutely no need to transition from the e-collar on the waist and the e-collar on the neck. Perhaps I can over-simply it this way: The use of the e-collar on the neck is the steering while the use on the waist is the brakes.
Done properly, you get a wonderfully reliable steady dog that handles like a dream.....minus the hacking/whistling. Dogs trained this way elect to hold reliably of their own volition rather than through threat of correction or discipline BUT it goes hand-in-hand with the early bird work experiences on birds that flush naturally without launchers, kick-cages, tethers, cardboard or garden hose. I control the outcome AND where dogs that chose to do it against the rules are corrected predominantly by the birds.
Since, my dogs are often "found" on point on wild birds rather than whoaed into point, it all seems to come together nicely.....VERY nicely. Silence speaks volumes!!

Well a dog done properly by any method will be steady on it's birds. Just as using the collar on the neck, I strongly suspect a dog can be messed up with a collar on it any where. There is a lot of people that don't even train whoa.

Rinker, I tend to do it similarly to what you described. You are correct too that once the process is complete, you no longer need an e-collar on the waist and for that matter, the only reason I still keep one on their neck is for insurance. I'd hate to think a particularly social dog wanted to run towards a luring coyote beatch in heat to make friends while I failed in recalling that dog. I'd be thinking, "Guess I should have had that e-collar on!!" Furthermore, I am somewhat "detached" from the lesson (in the dog's mind) which actually enhances style on point.
Anyway, we often learn better ways to do things - most of us. If you are comfy with a particular process you might be reticent to make the leap towards that better way. I get it.
Steadiness, by virtue of a threat of discipline requiring physical human intervention will NEVER be as reliable as steadiness in a dog that choses to hold of it's own volition.
Like I said, I had 2 horseback FT Chs before I ever used an e-collar. It was more harsh but you can't deny the results. Today, I get better results faster with a much more humane process. I struggled with the transitions too especially when you've had success. That said, I'm a MUCH better trainer today and hope to be even better tomorrow.

I don't know that it would be a better way, just a different way!

Most trainers I know currently use the EC on the flank or belly as it were to aid in steadying a dog to wing and shot.

One trainer makes a consistent effort to locate the prongs of the e-collar on the upper part of the dog's back, near to the spine, into the large muscle of the back leg, especially when working a young dog on foot the first few times.

The consensus opinion I have gotten from them is that a VERY light stim on the flank tends to stop and tighten a dog up, without the dog associating the stim with the bird or its scent.

I always used the e-collar on the neck point of contact for obedience. I drill heel and whoa in the yard...as an obedience command, with no bird component at all. The dog learns to stop and stand first...then it learns to allow me to walk around it without moving a toenail and then to allow me to stroke, style, push, pull, pick up and reposition, bump into, step over... essentially anything I want to do to the dog... without it moving a toenail.

THEN... I put it on birds.

Doing it this way(which takes longer), allows me to use the e-collar on the neck, since WHOA has become an ingrained obedience command. It also allows me to dial back and redirect the pressure by putting the collar on the flank or belly or hip during the initial exposure to birds and establishing a rock solid point. This ability can be very useful for a sensitive dog, or a really smart dog(usually the two go together) to maintain a high degree of style on point in front of birds.

I believe the consistent obedience work in the yard allows the sight or scent of the bird to absolutely SCREAM the command WHOA to the dog...without me saying or doing anything. A couple dogs that have been brought along this way have pointed and held the very first bird they encountered in the field( bird in launcher). Most others were steady to wing and shot within the first two or three bird encounters, after being corrected with a pop from a checkcord, or nick from an e-collar. The all required multiple repetitions and different situations before they were reliably steady and to be completely honest, there were a couple dogs that did not get with the program, but that required another approach. Not all dogs are created equal.

FWIW, I have only trained pointers from start to finish, and trial bred ones at that. This kind of dog usually comes out of the birth canal with more point than most breeds.

RayG

RayG, as light as the stim is, dogs tend to move away from the point of contact. I would not put the prongs on top of the flanks, myself.
The way I use a neck collar if absolutely required is to turn an ornery dog. Having a dog turn and having a dog stop in his tracks from the same source is just...ambiguous.
The waist collar is clean, clear and takes less time in part because of the clarity - where the dog is concerned.

Quailtail wrote:I tried to search this topic but got so many results wih none actually telling me the process.

Those of you that use this method, could you give me instructions on how to do it?

Thank You

I wouldn't have a clue where to start !
I thought you guys believed in the game teaching the dog whoa' anyway

OP, if you go to huntsmith.com you can find articles about this. Look for Whoa Post Redux parts 1 and 2. The first article shows how to use the whoa post in order to set up for the transition to the flank collar in part 2. The articles are pretty specific and clearly written.

Featherfinder wrote:RayG, as light as the stim is, dogs tend to move away from the point of contact. I would not put the prongs on top of the flanks, myself.
The way I use a neck collar if absolutely required is to turn an ornery dog. Having a dog turn and having a dog stop in his tracks from the same source is just...ambiguous.
The waist collar is clean, clear and takes less time in part because of the clarity - where the dog is concerned.

Featherfinder -

I hear what you are saying about the collar on the top of the back. I had my doubts...and still do. BUT...the trainer who showed me that particular variation was Jeannette Tracy. She has broke more pups and derbies than I would care to count and she showed it to me on my dog. She was getting that dog ready for stakes where she would be handling him so I gotta believe she was doing what she considered the best...for that dog.

For me, the e-collar is a means to enforce an obedience command that the dog has blown off. Any obedience command. If I holler "whuuup" as the dog is heading toward a blacktop road...That SOB had better stop...immediately...or I'm going to light his a$$ up with an 8 second high hard one. If that don't get his attention...he'll get another one and another...until he stops.

RayG

For the people asking how to whoa train their dogs, don't do that......................Cj

cjhills wrote:For the people asking how to whoa train their dogs, don't do that......................Cj

If you enjoy the prospect of watching your dog getting run over, then I agree...don't do that.

The point is...if you do the obedience work thoroughly and have the dog responding...instantly... to a command, you should not need to use such extreme measures. But if you do...you should not hesitate.

Obedience is obedience.

RayG

RayGubernat wrote:

cjhills wrote:For the people asking how to whoa train their dogs, don't do that......................Cj

If you enjoy the prospect of watching your dog getting run over, then I agree...don't do that.

The point is...if you do the obedience work thoroughly and have the dog responding...instantly... to a command, you should not need to use such extreme measures. But if you do...you should not hesitate.

Obedience is obedience.

RayG

Absolutely right

Nothing wrong with teaching with the collar on the neck. It simply reinforces NEVER TEACHES what the dog all ready knows. A retriever learns at least 26 or more commands with reinforcement from the collar on the neck. Pointing dog's can do the same. Just the way I've always done it. No more confusing to them teaching them to stop on it than to sit, come, or fetch with it.

ezzy333 wrote:

RayGubernat wrote:

cjhills wrote:For the people asking how to whoa train their dogs, don't do that......................Cj

If you enjoy the prospect of watching your dog getting run over, then I agree...don't do that.

The point is...if you do the obedience work thoroughly and have the dog responding...instantly... to a command, you should not need to use such extreme measures. But if you do...you should not hesitate.

Obedience is obedience.

RayG

Absolutely right

Again To the people learning to train their dog. Get some yard training on your dog before you put him in that situation. Get a reasonable recall that you can enforce with reasonable stimulation, which you should have if your dog is wearing a collar in the field.
I have seen dogs trained like Ray and Ezzy suggest who never left their owner's side while wearing a ecollar after that kind of treatment.
I have always used a Tritronics field 70 and have for 20 years. Very simple collar, 6 stim settings, no vibration, no nick it does have a tone, I don't use that, just set it 1 to 6 and push the button. I have never used higher than a 4 on a dog. I can not even imagine what 8 seconds of a six would do. I am sure it would stop him. just use a little common sense..........Cj

Again To the people learning to train their dog. Get some yard training on your dog before you put him in that situation. Get a reasonable recall that you can enforce with reasonable stimulation, which you should have if your dog is wearing a collar in the field.
I have seen dogs trained like Ray and Ezzy suggest who never left their owner's side while wearing a ecollar after that kind of treatment.
I have always used a Tritronics field 70 and have for 20 years. Very simple collar, 6 stim settings, no vibration, no nick it does have a tone, I don't use that, just set it 1 to 6 and push the button. I have never used higher than a 4 on a dog. I can not even imagine what 8 seconds of a six would do. I am sure it would stop him. just use a little common sense..........Cj

That is pretty funny Cj.

For the record, I train AND TRIAL field trial bred pointers. Only pointers. I have helped folks with other breeds of dogs on occasion, but that is all.

I have had some moderate success with the dogs I have trained myself. That includes about 75 placeents in both American field and AKC horseback and walking field trials. It also includes one little girl who was awarded her AKC Field Championship after placing in ALL AGE stakes sponored by several different GSP clubs. To get her FC and yes it was an FC, she had to soundly beat some of the best shorthairs in the country. Billy Mengert and Joe Amatulli, among others... run dogs where I do.

With all due respect, you have absolutely no clue how I train my dogs. My dogs DO not walk by my side. They run...to the limits of the available cover(and occasionally beyond)...with joy and abandon and independence. They are VERY independent. They do that because I encourage them to. They are, for the most part, Waaaay more dog than most folks would enjoy hunting over...because I mostly trial these days, and a dog that runs to the limits with confidence, and enthusiasm...is what gets looked at. I can and do train on foot and hunt with those same dogs, on a 40 acre preserve field because they know it is a different gamne when the shotguns come out, but their real niche is running out in front of a horse.

I have used a Tritronics Flyway Special for quite some time now...about 30 years or so I guess. It has been rebuilt twice and still going strong.

And while I do endless obedience drills in the yard, using leads or prong or pinch collars, I always have a collar on the dog when it is in the field, because if it ain't on the dog, you cannot enforce a command beyond 50 ft. I RARELY use a stim level above 2 and that being, for the most part a momentary stim, there HAVE been occasions where a dog has blown me off.

If a dog deliberately disobeys a known obedience command and then ignores a nick on 1 or 2, ... it gets hammered...immediately. That way, it will remember, the next time a command is issued, it knows very well what will happen if it disobeys.

If a dog disobeys a known command, it is defying the trainer. Plain and simple...it is defiance. Once the dog understands that defiance will not be tolerated and will be punished severely, the dog will accept its place in the pack and be happy with it. A bird dog lives and breathes to hunt and find birds. If you set down the rules and parameters within which the dog is allowed to hunt and find birds...the dog will work, with joy and enthusiasm...within those boundaries...because when it does, it gets to wrap its gums around a bird

Whoa is an obedience command for my dogs... WHEN I ISSUE THE VERBAL COMMAND. If I do, the dog had better skid to a stop and grow roots...or the hammer will come down. I VERY SELDOM issue that verbal command, or any other verbal commands, for that matter. I prefer to have the dog cue off the directions I issue via the position of the horse or the way I "sing" to the dog.

When hunting, the sight or scent of the bird is what SCREAMS whoa to the dog. Not me. The interaction needs to be between the dog and the bird. The human element generally distracts from that interaction.

I stay out of it, as much as is humanly possible. My job is to flush the bird and fire the gun. The dog's job is to find, point and hold the bird.

I hope some of this helps.

RayG

Belly band is to speed up the whoa training on a dog so there’s no confusion. Stim on the belly always means whoa, Stim on the neck means avoidance (trash breaking or running back to you) and handling. With the method the breaking process tends to go a lot smoother and faster.

a lot of people like the belly band but you will have to transfer it to the neck if you dont then if the dog dont comply while your hunting if all your work has been with the collar on the belly what are you going to do will the dog understand that the collar on its neck mean the same thing .but a lot of people do it that way

I was just 'spiff balling' ?/?
Whilst those that use e-collar as a tool to overlay a known command and those that use a known behaviour with a command and when one uses a command or a stim with a collar .
I sure would like to know how a turn of a Horse and singing tone communicates with a dog at range ? That would be real cool for me ! Thanks in advance .

The dog knows to stay to the front, roughly between 10 and 2 oclock. By the horse’s position the dog notices the handler is headed in a different direction and goes to the front. The singing can be be either a heads up or a command.

polmaise wrote:I
I sure would like to know how a turn of a Horse and singing tone communicates with a dog at range ? That would be real cool for me ! Thanks in advance .

Most dogs do not want to be lost. Most dogs are much better at keeping track of us than we are of them. When we "think" a dog is lost, the dog is usually not in the least worried because we are not "lost" to them. So, going quiet and hiding on a young dog in the field will generally bring them back around with a rather worried or even frantic attitude as they have become "lost". By the same token, "singing" to the dog assures that they are able to be confident in the location of their handler and comfortable in their ability to continue moving and working without coming around.
One of the more (I tend to think of it as one of the most useful) traits in a working dog is to have a front running dog. These dogs are keenly aware of their handler and will always seek to be in motion to the front. If you want one of these types of dogs to turn you simply have to turn yourself. The turn of a horse is a much better visual cue than the turn of the human body, and the dogs will quickly cue off the change of direction of the horse and move to position themselves to the new "front".

Lol...so most on here don't work a Spaniel ...Right ?

polmaise wrote:Lol...so most on here don't work a Spaniel ...Right ?

I'm pretty sure that those who do, don't sing to them, work them from a horse, or use and EC to teach "whoa".

slistoe wrote:

polmaise wrote:Lol...so most on here don't work a Spaniel ...Right ?

I'm pretty sure that those who do, don't sing to them, work them from a horse, or use and EC to teach "whoa".

I can see how it would be confusing . lol

Quailtail wrote:I tried to search this topic but got so many results wih none actually telling me the process.

Those of you that use this method, could you give me instructions on how to do it?

Thank You

Ray,I have the utmost respect for the Tracey family - know them well. Don't know that Jeanette would recall me but George, Mary and Mike assuredly do.
That said, I might have to try what you said. I got where I am because I am always willing to learn.
CJ, I think what Ray was trying to convey is that some dogs will disregard their foundation training if the bait is luring enough. In this event, you need to ensure that dog comes back (recalls) BEFORE it gets hit by a car. On occasion, you don't have the time to experiment with what might best convey your message before that car strikes the dog. So, you might use extra stim BUT the dog goes home with you to work another day.
The variables are many:
- where you train,
- local lures (coyote, deer, skunks, snakes, traffic, etc.)
- the dog's ability to focus and/or take stim.
I had a pointer that would run right through the highest level of my Dogtra 2502! To give you an example of his pain threshold, he tore apart a porcupine! There were quills in his mouth, his tongue, his chest, around one eye and in one paw. There were literally pieces of meat from that porky hanging from the quills in his mouth! Once satisfied, he turned to find birds with a cracking TWELVE O'CLOCK TAIL....I kid you not. That dog is the friendliest couch potato you can meet but relentless in the field with no aggression but.....TOUGH!!! It took a DVM with an assistant almost 4 hours to get the quills out.
Getting him back against his will was a challenge, to say the least. We do what we do to protect our dogs.

Polimaise, I have worked spaniels with an e-collar but no horses or singing. I couldn't remember the words.

Every dog deserves to be de-bolted and when done correctly it most certainly has no effect on their range.

There ya'll go talking about singing again! (hearing show tunes in my head).

Singing starts at about 33 seconds in
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r9FukGHrhm0

shags wrote:Singing starts at about 33 seconds in
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r9FukGHrhm0

Looking forward to watching. . . .when I'm not at work. Thanks!

Whilst I'm always eager to learn and extrapolate dog training from many fields ,it looks like to me anyways from the video clip that it's a whole lot easier on the human to ride a horse than it is to walk ?. I still can't get my head round the singing bit or the fore mentioned 'position of the horse' to relate to the dog on point , or hunt bit ?

Heck yeah, it’s a lot easier to let the horse do the hauling

If you view some of the other videos, particularly the pheasant championship one by skydance kennels, you can see the distances involved in some of our trials. In the east, our grounds are much tighter. For a dog that ranges, singing is communication with him at a distance. On the tighter grounds, the cover often hides dog, handler, or both. Believe me, singing is much more pleasant than hearing some old guy or gal screeching at the dog.

You can see on the prairie trials videos how far the dogs range...little specks on the horizon. They can see a horse more easily than a handler on the ground, and learn to cue off the horse for direction changes. If you have a good front running dog, your horse can ‘aim’ him anywhere you want him to go without a word.

A good dog, handler, and horse team is a beautiful song and dance routine

shags wrote:Heck yeah, it’s a lot easier to let the horse do the hauling

If you view some of the other videos, particularly the pheasant championship one by skydance kennels, you can see the distances involved in some of our trials. In the east, our grounds are much tighter. For a dog that ranges, singing is communication with him at a distance. On the tighter grounds, the cover often hides dog, handler, or both. Believe me, singing is much more pleasant than hearing some old guy or gal screeching at the dog.

You can see on the prairie trials videos how far the dogs range...little specks on the horizon. They can see a horse more easily than a handler on the ground, and learn to cue off the horse for direction changes. If you have a good front running dog, your horse can ‘aim’ him anywhere you want him to go without a word.

A good dog, handler, and horse team is a beautiful song and dance routine

Interesting ! Thanks 'Shags' .
So , at these great distances where the dog is at away from the horse , how does the dog pick up them , when most don't see diddly sqwat at 50 metres in high grass ?. Just Prairie or a mound in front ? ..Just trying to get my head around it

Well, that’s where the singing comes in. As long as the dog can discern from which direction the voice comes, he cues off that. Generally, handlers have a ‘song’ that means ‘good dog, keep on rolling’ and another that means ‘hey, I’m going over here, so turn’.

IME a good handler in an iffy sight-distance situation, will ride to a likely-better-viewing-area, turn his horse, pause, and sing. Soon as the dog picks him up, the handler continues on in the desired direction.

I bet the sound echo plays havoc when there is cover like Trees or forest around ?.. Or even wind .

My local trial grounds are filled with small deep valleys and hills. Add windy conditions and it can be a mess. On the one hand you can clearly hear conversations a quarter mile away but can’t holler so your dog can hear you at 100 yards. Just depends, so you do the best you can.

I don’t do coverdog trialls, but from what I’ve heard, the woods can make sound travel (or not) in strange ways.