Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

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BuckeyeSteve
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Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:25 am

I'm considering getting a TT15mini for my Brittany pup. I'm in the VERY VERY beginning phases of training....as in kennel training, "no bite", "drop it", agbout to start "come", and frustratingly working on house training. As I continue to train "come" and get into hunt training, I'm looking at an e-collar, and thinking a gps like the TT15 because my dog is clearly a confident roamer so I worry about losing him. I don't want to hodge podge together a newbies guess at training.... so I'm wondering if there is a clear training plan that comes with the TT15's, or a system I should buy along side it....or if I just need to use it for corrections on commands I'm otherwise working.

Any advice from those with extensive successful experience would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:11 pm

I'm not 100% sure exactly what you are asking. As far as a "training plan", I don't know of any e-collar that really comes with a plan. Training is a whole separate thing than learning to use an e-collar. And before start to use the e-collar you need to understand that the collar is to re-enforce what the dog has already been taught. You don't teach the dog with the e-collar.

As far as the Alpha TT15 Mini. It's an excellent choice. I have a Brittany and that's what I run on my dog. Never have to worry about losing them.
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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by shags » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:19 pm

I don’t care much for the gps/ecollar combos because if one component goes oit and you need to send it for repairs, you got nothin’ for the duration. Some folks like not having two separate systems though, like having the one handheld etc, so that’s a personal choice.

I I have a TT pro 100 exp and a garmin minis for my dogs. The mini supposedly has less range than a regular collar, so I jacked it up with an extended range antenna. I like the lighter mini because I use a regular sized ecollar, so weight was a concern.

My ecollars came with a little training manual or dvd but it’s super basic and not anything I would count on for real instruction. I’ve looked at some you tube vids too, but don’t click with the methods. YMMV.

I taught recall the Amish way, with a light cc and food rewards first in the back yard when my guys were little pups, then expanded to bigger areas. Once out in the field they were pretty good for recall, but came to an independent stage around 5 months. Back to the yard, but this time overlayed the ecollar on a very light stim and the cc. Back out to the field...call the dog, he ignores, light nick, dog realizes my invisible cc is very very long, and comes in.

For my guys, it took a few of those kind of sessions to be reliable and I don’t need the ecollar for correction.* Over time they tend to backslide a little so a repeat every few years might be in order.

I did pretty much the same with heel, used the ecollar for correction only. I want my dogs to heel off horseback, or heel to my ATV, at any speed I need to go, so the ecollar makes it easy to ride and train at the same time. Again just a very light nick is all it takes to remind them.

I didn’t use a printed or video type program to learn because I’m lucky to have had mentors to teach me in person. But IME the ecollar is a very simple tool so not much savvy of it’s workings are necessary, BUT you must be able to read your dog and have impeccable timing to use the ecollar effectively. That takes work and the willingness to know what you don’t know.

You want to use the lightest stim you can, that gets a reaction from your dog. That means you have to watch for very sublte cues, like ear twitches, a little chop-licking, or even eye blinks. Depends on your dog. Once you have that down, you have to see what level of stim gets your dog to comply. Again, depends on the dog. One of my dogs reacts to a nick at 2 and also complies there; the other reacts to a nick at 1 but complies at 2 or 3. So i know where to set my collar so as not to be nagging with too little, nor overreacting with too much.

I’ve trained with good pros, so haven’t had much need for boxed systems. But I really enjoyed a Slient Command System seminar by Rick Smith, and learned a ton. If I didn’t have my current resources, I would look into training their way.

* My dogs don’t need their ecollars for training these days, except for the very occasional reminder, but the mostly wear them when we go to the field, because we have deer out the wazoo and roads nearby. Good trash breaking only takes once, but ya never know. They’re just dogs :lol:

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by Bedight » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:52 pm

If you intend to train the dog yourself then Training with Mo, Steve Smith Pointing Dog Series, George Hickox Pointing Dog Series, Jon Hanns Perfection Series and many more excellent training programs in books, tapes and CDs are available and all cover use and abuse of the e-Collar as a training tool. I'd pick one or more of these, study them before deciding on an e-collar. Better still attend one of these trainers seminars.

As for the TT-Mini the only downside to selecting it rather than the 2.5 ounce larger TT15 is that the TT Mini has half the range and 60% less battery life than the TT15. So the only reason for getting a Mini is if the dog's neck size is between 9.5" and 14", hard to tell how big they are going to be before they are 9 months old or more. I have heard of guys successfully modifying the TT15 Collar to fit smaller dogs, don't know how they did it so can't recommend it.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by shags » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:51 pm

At the time I bought my minis, the collar straps were the same length as the dc 30 (or 40, I forget)

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:40 pm

Bedight wrote:As for the TT-Mini the only downside to selecting it rather than the 2.5 ounce larger TT15 is that the TT Mini has half the range and 60% less battery life than the TT15. So the only reason for getting a Mini is if the dog's neck size is between 9.5" and 14", hard to tell how big they are going to be before they are 9 months old or more. I have heard of guys successfully modifying the TT15 Collar to fit smaller dogs, don't know how they did it so can't recommend it.
Even though Garmin says that the range of the Mini is less than the standard TT15 from the tests I've read, in reality, there is actually very little difference in range. And while the battery life is less with the Mini I have not found that to be an issue. The battery in the Mini lasts plenty long, just be sure to charge it after every use or second use depending on how long you are in the field.
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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:16 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:I'm not 100% sure exactly what you are asking. As far as a "training plan", I don't know of any e-collar that really comes with a plan. Training is a whole separate thing than learning to use an e-collar. And before start to use the e-collar you need to understand that the collar is to re-enforce what the dog has already been taught. You don't teach the dog with the e-collar.

As far as the Alpha TT15 Mini. It's an excellent choice. I have a Brittany and that's what I run on my dog. Never have to worry about losing them.
Thanks... I appreciate the feedback. I also have a Brittany - the mini fits okay?
I get that the e-collar is for reinforcement...I was mainly wondering if it comes with a specific training "set of rules" type thing. I've gathered that some people don't use e-collars, so I didn't know if there were certain commands or times to use, etc. I don't want to figure it out as I go. I'm still trying to figure out which commands I teach, and in which order. Do i only use the e-collar to reinforce a "whoa" and a "come", or do I use it for every little thing like continuous if he breaks heel? It seems like enough damage could be done with an e-collar that it should come with some pretty specific instructions on when/why to use, not just how to use. I may be overcomplicating it.... I just know that I don't know what I'm doing and don't want to mess the dog up.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:24 pm

shags wrote: I taught recall the Amish way, with a light cc and food rewards first in the back yard when my guys were little pups, then expanded to bigger areas. Once out in the field they were pretty good for recall, but came to an independent stage around 5 months. Back to the yard, but this time overlayed the ecollar on a very light stim and the cc. Back out to the field...call the dog, he ignores, light nick, dog realizes my invisible cc is very very long, and comes in.
Shags... thanks, that was a lot of good info. Not to ask a dumb questions, but what is "the Amish way"? I read a blog about check cords (I keep reading about people using check cords, but they sound like long leashes to me and I don't really get how to use them) and it seemed extremely complicated and only useful if you are in a hunt training situation moving into fields with bird launchers.. I'm at 10 weeks and still in the phase where I need to teach come, heel, down, whoa, kennel up, no bite, and house training. Second dumb question... when you're saying "teach recall", you're teaching "come" or "here" I'm assuming? And those two can be taught either/or interchangeably? Like "stay" and "whoa", just a matter of preference, but you don't teach both as they mean the same thing?

Thanks!

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:46 pm

Bedight wrote:If you intend to train the dog yourself then Training with Mo, Steve Smith Pointing Dog Series, George Hickox Pointing Dog Series, Jon Hanns Perfection Series and many more excellent training programs in books, tapes and CDs are available and all cover use and abuse of the e-Collar as a training tool. I'd pick one or more of these, study them before deciding on an e-collar. Better still attend one of these trainers seminars.

As for the TT-Mini the only downside to selecting it rather than the 2.5 ounce larger TT15 is that the TT Mini has half the range and 60% less battery life than the TT15. So the only reason for getting a Mini is if the dog's neck size is between 9.5" and 14", hard to tell how big they are going to be before they are 9 months old or more. I have heard of guys successfully modifying the TT15 Collar to fit smaller dogs, don't know how they did it so can't recommend it.
I bought training with Mo, and I think it's got some good stuff for down the road, and I like his dog-instinctive and "kind" style of training, but the book left me with more questions than answers. I'm currently looking for a used Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVD set, but haven't found one and hate to spend the money when I've just spent a bunch on the dog, am considering an 800.00 e-collar/gps, and there is a shiny new O/U in my near future (because I hate my 11/87)....so I'm being cheap on the $150 training series, but I think in the last 3 minutes I've just talked myself into spending the money and buying it. I was also looking at the Lindley based 3 dvd set of the 2016 seminar for $65 if you (or anyone else) has an opinion on that. My concern with the Mo 3 DVD set is that it will be mainly working with older hunting dogs, and largely a review of what I've already read in the book... and I need the most basic of things to be included in my instruction.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by deseeker » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:20 pm

Buckeye Steve--
Just so you know, If you are going to get Perfect Start/Perfect Finish you are going to need a huge number of pigeons--the dog is teaching himself what to do with a ton of pigeon contacts. It is a very good video set on training, but I just want you to realize it takes a lot of pigeons--you might want to think about a small pigeon loft with a few homers that you can use over and over again. Good luck with the pup :D

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:23 pm

deseeker wrote:Buckeye Steve--
Just so you know, If you are going to get Perfect Start/Perfect Finish you are going to need a huge number of pigeons--the dog is teaching himself what to do with a ton of pigeon contacts. It is a very good video set on training, but I just want you to realize it takes a lot of pigeons--you might want to think about a small pigeon loft with a few homers that you can use over and over again. Good luck with the pup :D
I have no source of pigeons...I do have quail. Can I do the system with quail? I also don't have lauchers....but could probably pick one(?) up if absolutely needed. If quail won't accomplish the same thing, or if I need 4 launchers....do you have a different system I should look in to?

Thanks!

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by Sharon » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:08 pm

Sorry , but quail won't accomplish the same thing.Quail flutter off but don't go far. Dog can easily catch them which defeats that training purpose. Sorry to make life harder for you. :)
Hard flying pigeons take off in a shot , dog can't catch them and learns to start to creep/stop on point. I don't know of any training programme that doesn't need hard flying birds- of course wild game birds are the best.
I never kept homing pigeons in a loft ; I bought a half dozen at the auction weekly for a couple months. Ezzy and others could tell you how to get started.
Quail will be very useful mid training.

tip : If you find some pigeons don't keep them in a crate for days as then they won't fly hard.Use them up in a day or two.


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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by Bedight » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:24 pm

TT15 Vs TT Mini:
Ran my neighbors TT Mini against my TT15 for range and found much to my dismay that, as Dakotazeb has said, the Mini has almost the same range as the TT15 in Open Cover. The TT15 does slightly better in the woods.

Birds:
Access to hard flying birds for dog training is the biggest problem for most DIY trainers who don't live on a farm or ranch......Agree with all the above....pen raised quail are easily caught by any dog and they are expensive. I use pigeons for all early training drills and buy a few Chukar for use in steadying and tune up. Best bird exposure are wild birds, so take hunting every chance you get.

If you can't or don't want to keep a pigeon loft and train Homers, your local pest control company will often sell you feral pigeons for a buck or two on the down low; If you live anywhere near a medium sized city, the pest control companies will have hundreds of pigeons on any day. They may insist that you use the pigeons well away from where they were captured, to keep them from returning.

My son uses traps on the roofs of fast food restaurants to get his pigeons, He baits them with French fries from the restaurant and gets 8 -12 a day by leaving the traps over night. Most cooperative restaurant is Burger King, they supply roof access and fries for the traps. You might need a license for this in some cities...............

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by Thinblueline » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:31 pm

I am saving for a TT15 Mini for my little French Brittany male who is a bit undersized at nearly one year old, weighing in at under 35 pounds with roughly about a 13 inch neck.

If someone could please help me, I haven’t found anybody at Cabelas or Scheels that knew anything about these collars. I’ve seen posts from people that say the TT15/Mini isn’t real intuitive in that you have to look at the screen when adjusting settings or stimulus levels and/or changing from dog to dog.

I’m wondering if all that is a non-issue for me and maybe someone can affirm my thinking. I only have one dog and that’s all I’m ever going to have. In fact, this might be my last dog because when he’s gone, I’ll prolly be around 60 years old and not wanting to mess around with another dog.

Anyway, with one dog, I won’t have to flip through screens to switch to different dogs so that must take care of that issue? Secondly, it appears there is three buttons you can hit without having to look at the device. Can I not set the “momentary” or “nick” button to the lowest stimulus level that gets his compliance? And the “continuous” button at maximum stimulation only to be used on the rarest of occasions to break him from chasing a deer, messing with a porcupine or skunk, sniffing around a trap, or heading full blast toward a busy highway? And then my third button to vibrate to bend him toward a new course or recall him?

I would think if I have my three buttons set like that I could use the TT15 Mini just as effectively and intuitively without ever having to look at the device. Having said that, I’ve never used an E-collar, so I don’t know if I’m right or wrong so if someone could chime in with an opinion on my thinking, I’m sure my dog and I would appreciate it.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:38 pm

Sharon wrote:Sorry , but quail won't accomplish the same thing.Quail flutter off but don't go far. Dog can easily catch them which defeats that training purpose. Sorry to make life harder for you. :)
Hard flying pigeons take off in a shot , dog can't catch them and learns to start to creep/stop on point. I don't know of any training programme that doesn't need hard flying birds- of course wild game birds are the best.
I never kept homing pigeons in a loft ; I bought a half dozen at the auction weekly for a couple months. Ezzy and others could tell you how to get started.
Quail will be very useful mid training.

tip : If you find some pigeons don't keep them in a crate for days as then they won't fly hard.Use them up in a day or two.


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Thanks Sharon,
I'm going to continue to build my quail hutch for down the road, and for now I'm going to go check some farms (and may try the Burger King thing....but can't imagine ppl are that helpful around here) to get permission to trap pigeons.

I've got easy access to quail.... my dog is right at 10 weeks, should I give him a live quail to play with just to introduce him to a bird. I know I don't want him catching birds in general, but in Training with Mo, I believe he said he gives a pup a bird at 7 or 8 weeks.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by cjhills » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:37 am

Steve:
If I was training one dog and cost was a issue, I would forget the Alpha and go with a cheaper ecollar like a Garmin Field 70, at around $300. it will do everything you need, has 6 levels. It is easy to use, no nick but you can push the button pretty quick, it does have tone. I am pretty sure you can use the mini with the field seventy. I have used every model of the 70 Tritronics Garmin has made. All worked well. Don't like the charging system now but it works.
I also would not worry about birds. My pups rarely see a bird until 6 or 8 months. We do yard training and obedience with lots of walks in the woods and fields. Occasionally they find a bird. Let him learn to hunt, put duct tape over your mouth and do not inhibit him.
As someone wrote the Perfection program requires huge numbers of birds plus it is difficult, if not impossible to do without help. In fact, it states that fact in the intro. you pretty much need a loft so you can reuse the birds. You do not shoot birds until well into the program. My preference is George Hickox program. especially for starting the pup and collar conditioning. Which is probably the most important thing you need to learn.
If you have nearby access to quail, you would be better off to buy when you need them. But quail are generally 5 to 8 dollars, they die easy and unless used in a Johnny House do not fly good enough.
I like to use chukars later in training. We do use a lot of quail to finish our hunt test dogs.
Remember dogs are very forgiving and it ishard to screw up a well bred dog. Not properly introducing the collar or the gun are two ways to do it.........Cj

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by shags » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:41 am

I don’t give my pups birds to maul for no reason other than to ‘introduce’ them. I like birds and don’t like that kind of death for them just for my dogs’ or my amusement. YYMV.

But, I do like to put a couple of birds pigeons -tougher and jumpier than quail- out in light cover then take the pup for a little walk and let the pup discover them. Light cover for this is grass about 6-10 inches tall. I don’t know how it is at your place, but here there is snow on the ground and even when it thaws, the cover will be pretty much mashed down, so I’d fluff up some spots. I don’t want my pups sighting birds.

Here’s how it usually goes. The pup goes bouncing around without a clue in the world that there’s anything worth messing with in the field. Then he catches scent and follows it right to the bird. If the bird flies, pup is like Holy Cow! What was that? Or if the bird sits and gets caught, pup is like Holy Cow! What *is* this thing? Next bird, sometimes is a repeat, sometimes the pup will point on scent or at least creep. I had one pup years back that was staunch from the whelping pen, but he was a freak of nature.

The bad thing about doing this, is it’s addictive which can lead to overdoing it. Overdoing it can lead to things you’ll have to undo later. Why would I overdo it, you ask. Well, because if your pup is one who is slow to figure it out, you want to repeat and repeat until he points. If your pup points right quick, then you want to see him do it again and again.

It won’t hurt to wait until your pup is a little older and the weather breaks. Then when you start, you can move right along in light training. Right now what are you gonna do, put a cc on him and steady him at 11 weeks? Do you trust yourself to play around just this once then put him up til later when real training begins?

IMO the whole idea of this early intro is to teach the dog that the outside isn’t one giant dog park with nothing more interesting than gum wrappers lying around. It teaches him the possibility of “Birds here”. But through experience I’ve learned ( Hardknocks U., College of BirdDogs) once is plenty until we’re ready to start developing the pup.

Chances are you’ll lose a quail or two to the pup, and that’s no big deal at this age. But you don’t want to have the pup’s behavior toward birds become a habit to be undone later. So if you want to go out and have a little fun, go for it. Just don’t overdo it with those easy-to-catch quail.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:38 am

Buckeyesteve -

Shags is right on the exposure to birds.

When I get a pup, it sees a pigeon or gamebird once at about 12-16 weeks. All I want to check out is the dog's drive and whether or not it has a useable nose. After that...it does not see or smell a bird until it is pretty much ready to be broke, but certainly not before 8-9 months of age.

My analogy has always been race cars. I strongly prefer to have the brakes and steering installed in the car BEFORE it goes out on the track. Less wrecks that way. Dog training is similar in that a solid foundation in obedience will make field training go much smoother and be more productive with fewer backward steps.

My dogs are trial bred pointers, and they typically come out of the birth canal with all the drive and desire you could ever need. More often than not...they have more drive than you want in a young dog, so it certainly does not need to be cranked up any higher.

I strongly suspect that most well bred bird dogs are in the same situation... and they really do not need to be fired up as youngsters. WE are the ones that want to see that. For my part a wild eyed, bird crazy puppy that has learned to catch an kill birds is more difficult to train than one who has learned to respond to commands and has learned that it cannot catch birds( which is where pigeons or wild birds excel).

My focus is to teach the dog only what it needs to know to be an effective hunting partner. It has been born with the genetic ability to seek and find game. We need to shape and mold that to our use.

Always remember that what you allow, you encourage. What you allow, you are teaching.

If you allow the dog to do something that you will have to UN-train or train around later, you are making more work for yourself and making it harder on both you AND the dog. Makes no sense to me.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by JONOV » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:17 pm

BuckeyeSteve wrote:
Dakotazeb wrote:I'm not 100% sure exactly what you are asking. As far as a "training plan", I don't know of any e-collar that really comes with a plan. Training is a whole separate thing than learning to use an e-collar. And before start to use the e-collar you need to understand that the collar is to re-enforce what the dog has already been taught. You don't teach the dog with the e-collar.

As far as the Alpha TT15 Mini. It's an excellent choice. I have a Brittany and that's what I run on my dog. Never have to worry about losing them.
Thanks... I appreciate the feedback. I also have a Brittany - the mini fits okay?
I get that the e-collar is for reinforcement...I was mainly wondering if it comes with a specific training "set of rules" type thing. I've gathered that some people don't use e-collars, so I didn't know if there were certain commands or times to use, etc. I don't want to figure it out as I go. I'm still trying to figure out which commands I teach, and in which order. Do i only use the e-collar to reinforce a "whoa" and a "come", or do I use it for every little thing like continuous if he breaks heel? It seems like enough damage could be done with an e-collar that it should come with some pretty specific instructions on when/why to use, not just how to use. I may be overcomplicating it.... I just know that I don't know what I'm doing and don't want to mess the dog up.
At its most basic, you just need to be mindful of what you're doing when you use it. For most anything, use the lowest level of stimulation that gets a result from your dog. The dog shouldn't be yelping when you correct him for something.

You don't correct a dog for anything that he doesn't already know. Meaning, If I tell my dog "down," he needs to lay down. If he doesn't, I'll correct him. If I told him to "Roll Over" without him having a thorough understanding of what that meant, its not fair to the dog and could set me up for problems.

Guys that most often have problems have their own temperament problems or are ridiculous in their expectations for the dog. That you're thinking about it is telling enough that you aren't going to get zappy on the dog.

At the more advanced level, the dog needs to be conditioned to learn that the collar doesn't mean one thing; most commonly we use it as a "here" reinforcement tool and nothing else. You won't "ruin" a dog that way but you don't get the full use of the tool either. If you use it to reinforce "whoa," "Kennel" "here" and some other command (I like "down" as a practical thing when I hunt/am out in general.) What that means is the dog understands that the collar can alteranatively mean "move to me, stop, move away from me, etc."

The exception is inhibiting a really bad behavior that doesn't require much training at all. Chasing Deer is an easy example. All you want is that the dog associates Bambi with lightning bolts.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:30 pm

Shags & RayG...
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm a pretty patient person, I'm not worried that I'll have an uncontrollable desire to have my pup on birds every week, but I do want to make sure I don't kill his natural birdiness by not somehow reinforcing what he was born with. He's a well bred dog, from Smoking Gun in North Carolina. My worry is that we have a bird feeder right outside our sliding glass door, and every time he walks our there are a lot of birds there that fly off that he just learns to ignore. Additionally, I have 15 chickens walking around the yard that he chases a little bit but also largely is already learning to ignore. I don't want him to learn that all birds are to be ignored. I'm too much of a rookie to understand how to deal with things like that....so I'm trying to make sure I don't miss an early opportunity to do something helpful. I don't have crazy expectations, I'm not overly pushy to the dog, and am not impatient on wanting to get ahead of the dogs readiness on training. I'm more than happy working on basic obedience, I just worry I'm going to miss an important step I won't be able to go back and make up later.

I do agree on the not liking the idea of my dog needlessly mauling an innocent bird...but if it was important (as I've read from others), I'd go with my own discomfort over not helping the dog. I'm much happier with the wild pigeon suggestion and saving the quail for later. I am building a return hutch and plan or raising my own, and I also have easy access to buy them. But, in the meantime I've also started looking at pigeon traps and am planning on asking some local farmers for trapping permission. I already called a few local pest/animal control companies, and apparently Pittsburghers never trap pigeons....so farm trapping it is for me.

Much thanks! I appreciate the help!

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:37 pm

cjhills wrote: go with a cheaper ecollar like a Garmin Field 70, at around $300. it will do everything you need, has 6 levels. It is easy to use, no nick but you can push the button pretty quick, it does have tone. I am pretty sure you can use the mini with the field seventy. I have used every model of the 70 Tritronics Garmin has made. All worked well. Don't like the charging system now but it works.
Cj
CJ, not to ask a dumb question, but I don't understand what an ecollar without the nick accomplishes? By "the nick" I assume you're refering to the shock/buzz that corrects them at controlled levels? If all it does is beep at him with a tone, does that do anything to correct him? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding... I love the idea of 300 vs 800.... just wanting to clarify that it still helps with corrections. I've never used any ecollar, so i'm a little clueless on this. I do like the GPS models (even at greater cost) because I really really don't want to lose my pooch in the middle of 800 acres of PA game lands!

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by cjhills » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:57 am

Steve:
It is not a dumb question. But you Do misunderstand. The Nick button on a e collar gives a short stimulation no matter how long you hold the button the stim button.That is why it is called a nick. The regular setting will shock at whatever level you set it for as long as you hold the button or 8 seconds, whichever comes first. I feel like if I need a nick I could just bump the button. Maybe not but it works for me. At least that is my assumption having never owned a collar with a nick.
I do get your concern about losing the dog. But with a good recall that is not a problem. I realize you don't want to call him off a point, but we hunt in millions of acres in northern Minnesota and never lost a dog yet. Although I am getting a bit concerned about wolves.
I do use a Astro now and my regular e collar. Mostly because I have a grandson who works for Garmin. So I only have to use my tracking collar when I might need it and not for training at home or on hunts where I know where the dog is. it is a lot easier for me. Does not use up my batteries and works better. The Astro and the Field 70 together cost about the same as the Alpha.
You really should get George Hickox DVD on collar conditioning your dog that is the utmost importance no matter what you use and you will be amazed how good it work............................Cj

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:43 am

Thanks Cj... that makes sense. I appreciate the explanation.

I'll absolutely get the Hickox ecollar DVD before introducing the ecollar. I have plenty of training to do before I get to the point of correcting, so I assume I have a few months to go.

I'm (at this point) planning on going with Bill West / Mo Lindsey programs for training, but would definitely add an e-collar specific piece from Hickox to the plan. I don't know much about Hickox general training vs West/Lindsey, but I assume to at least that degree they'd work together.

Thanks!

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:31 am

BuckeyeSteve wrote:Thanks Cj... that makes sense. I appreciate the explanation.

I'll absolutely get the Hickox ecollar DVD before introducing the ecollar. I have plenty of training to do before I get to the point of correcting, so I assume I have a few months to go.

I'm (at this point) planning on going with Bill West / Mo Lindsey programs for training, but would definitely add an e-collar specific piece from Hickox to the plan. I don't know much about Hickox general training vs West/Lindsey, but I assume to at least that degree they'd work together.

Thanks!
I have an older TT unit(a flyway special) with nick and, yes it is a very short duration pulse. It can be approximated by tapping the continuous button and to be honest, that is what most folks do anyway.

I cannot comment on the Hickox method of introducing the collar, but I suspect it is a good one. I believe Mr. Hickox uses the e-collar as an avoidance training tool which is different from the more common usage, which is as a correction tool(long range checkcord). I could be wrong about this, but that is my recollection.

Avoidance training typically uses a low level continuous stim which the dog "turns off" by doing what the trainer wants. It is typically used in conjunction with things like a "place board". Different than what I do, but obviously it is effective and it works.

My only advice regarding the e-collar, when used for corrections(as you would in the West/Lindley methods) is to always remember that the behavior you are correcting for, should have been already trained in to the dog. The dog must understand why it is being corrected for the correction to be effective and not confusing. when using an e-collar in this way, you train first, with hands, checkcords, whatever and then OVERLAY the e-collar simultaneously and in conjunction with the primary training method. Once the dog understands that the e-collar correction or cue is being issued for non-compliance to a command, you are where you need to be.

BTW, there is nothing at all wrong with taking a piece of one person's method and stitching it together with another method, as long as you understand when and how to use the various pieces. Every method I have read about is tailored to that person's preferences, what they are comfortable with and what has worked for them. If you are more comfortable with how one trainer gets from point A to point B with a dog, then use that person's method. If there is a piece of that method that YOU are not comfortable with, or confident in doing...it is a lead pipe cinch that your uncertainty will be translated to the dog and your unease will become the dog's unease.

FWIW, I overlay the e-collar when I am doing heel/whoa drills in the yard. I start out using a wonder lead type lead type device, and when the dog is doing well with the wonder lead, and actually doing OK(but not perfect) with no lead on at all... I put on the e-collar and cue the cog simultaneously with the lead and the e-collar on its lowest setting with a nick. The dogs very quickly learn to stay withmy knee and start and stop with just the e-collar, again , at its lowest setting.

I use a wonder lead type rope. You can use a JASA pinch collar, a prong collar a choke chain, a heeling stick...whatever you want, whatever works for you and the dog, then overlay and transition to the e-collar with minimal confusion to the dog.


RayG

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by cjhills » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:18 pm

E collar training is pretty much all avoidance training. If you jolt the dog because he does not obey your command, he obeys to avoid the jolt. If you fry him to make him quit chasing deer, he quits to avoid getting fried.
Why does Ray's dog Stay by his knee at heel? Answer: to avoid the shock from the collar. The Hickox method is used enforce commands the dog knows just as most systems. It is very easy to understand and use. It does not use a placeboard. The first command is "kennel" and a crate is used for that. Similar to using a place board, I suppose..............Cj

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:18 pm

cjhills wrote:E collar training is pretty much all avoidance training. If you jolt the dog because he does not obey your command, he obeys to avoid the jolt. If you fry him to make him quit chasing deer, he quits to avoid getting fried.
Why does Ray's dog Stay by his knee at heel? Answer: to avoid the shock from the collar. The Hickox method is used enforce commands the dog knows just as most systems. It is very easy to understand and use. It does not use a placeboard. The first command is "kennel" and a crate is used for that. Similar to using a place board, I suppose..............Cj

There is a difference in application. Avoidance type training, as I see it, encourages the dog to "turn off" the low level stim by performing the required behavior. So, the dog STARTS out with a stim, which is, in effect a negative reinforcement, up front.

Using an e-collar for corrections starts out with a cue or command to the dog. If the dog responds to the cue or command in a timely manner and performs the behavior...there is no stim, no negative reinforcement. If the dog does not respond appropriately in a timely manner, the e-collar stim is issued as a correction.

As I said, both methods are effective and they both work. I personally am more familiar and more comfortable with the latter, so that is what I do.

RayG

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by cjhills » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:16 pm

what you are saying is basically the same as George Hickox Method. The dog is not taught the command with the collar. He is taught the command first and learns that he can avoid the collar by obeying the the command . The problem is if the dog does not learn that he can avoid the stim by obeying the command he will start ignoring the command and wait for the stim and it takes more and more stim.
Taking away something the dog does not like for him doing good is positive, giving him something he don't like for doing bad is negative........Cj

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:50 pm

cjhills wrote:what you are saying is basically the same as George Hickox Method. The dog is not taught the command with the collar. He is taught the command first and learns that he can avoid the collar by obeying the the command . The problem is if the dog does not learn that he can avoid the stim by obeying the command he will start ignoring the command and wait for the stim and it takes more and more stim.
Taking away something the dog does not like for him doing good is positive, giving him something he don't like for doing bad is negative........Cj
That has not been my experience. Once the dog has a solid foundation and has demonstrated the behavior in various scenarios, it has been my experience that I very rarely have to use the collar at all and that when I do have to use the collar, it almost always gets a rapid response at a very low stim level.

If a dog messes up at a field trial, I cannot correct the dog first, because the dog is not wearing an e-collar and second, any correction will be well after the fact and a correction that is not timely is not a good correction. However, the dogs do know what they have done...they are not stupid. They also know, very well, that getting put in harness means they are done for the day and that I ain't happy with what they did.

A couple days later when they get drilled, and drilled and drilled again on the behavior they messed up on, they usually come to understand that, the next time they get to run at a trial, a repeat performance of their screwup...is not in their best interest.

I have no doubt in my mind that a dog remembers, very clearly that failure to comply has negative consequences regardless of which way a dog is trained. The more unpleasant the consequences, the more the dog will remember and tend to avoid a repeat of the unpleasantness. Of that I am also quite sure.

To me, the goal is to attain a highest level of compliance I can with the lowest level of negative consequences. This allows the dog to retain the most independence, spirit and enthusiasm, which translates to a dog that does its job with joy and shows all of the class and style it was born and bred with.

Exactly how one gets there is(to me) less important.

RayG

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:30 pm

CJ & Ray...
I have to admit, the "taking away the negative" seems a lot more confusing than me than the correction. I think I really need to watch the Hickox videos to understand that. Correction to a previously trained command seems way more straight forward -- but I do like the concept of positive vs negative training. It just seems like if the negative isn't there, the command would lack effect. I'm sure that's not the case,or it wouldn't be a widely followed method...it's just counter intuitive. Luckily...I think I have some time for this. Rosco is about 12 weeks now. Am I correct in assuming that with either method I wouldn't be introducing the e-collar until 6 months to a year old range?

On a related note... I again like the concept of positive/reward training vs negative training, but it seems to me that much of the basic obedience training I'm doing right now is negative/corrective, and I don't really know how to change that. When the dog pees/poops in the house, I put it's nose close (no it) and sternly tell him "no!" and then take him outside. When he nips/bites/licks I smack his nose and say "no bite!" and put a chew toy in his mouth. Other things are positive, like rewarding for "come" or giving treats when I put him in the kennel...but I definitely feel like I'm being more negatively correcting than I want to be. I think I'm actually going to post a general question on this subject...or look up some basic obedience training options from past posts to see if there are better ways for what I'm doing on the house manners things...but the point of this ramble is, though I prefer the idea of positive training, the e-collar as a corrective measure (as lightly and infrequently as possible) just seems more intuitive.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by shags » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:39 pm

I agree with you...to me it seems more natural to use the ecollar to correct than to turn off the stim as a reward. I Tried that way at one time for one command, and I didn’t like it and didn’t consider it successful. But other folks have different experience, so there ya go.

My training is a mix of positive and negative. Scold the puppy for “going” in the house, and praise him for “going” oitdoors.
Scold for biting, praise for not being mouthy. Show him what ‘heel’ is and praise when he’s trying to comply, but correct when he isn’t.

In my mind, our dogs’ training is different from having them do parlor tricks - they have to comply at a distance, they have to make hard decisions when we aren’t nearby to help them. At some point the decision to comply because of reward will be overpowered by the decision to do something else. Knowing that negative consequences can happen helps keep the dog on the correct path. But that’s me and my Catholic school upbringing :lol:

I watched a video of some guy using a clicker to train his setter. The dog was on point, the guy clicked and gave the dog a food treat. Click, food. Click, food. The poor dog was slinging it’s head all over and the look on her face was “Would you just please flush this bird!”

A trainer friend used to train marine mammals and I asked him about positive and negative training, reinforcement and aversion. He said training dogs takes a mix of both, and the trick is knowing which, when.

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Re: Training with a Garmin Alpha TT15 mini

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:49 pm

My next acquisition will be the Dogtra Pathfinder. I have used Dogtra products for many years and they stand up to the toughest usage you could imagine.
They are VERY user friendly which is vital.
Sounds like your marine mammal guy knows his stuff. I've been training for about 40 years but still learning. I'd love to chat with a guy/gal like that to broaden my knowledge base.

https://www.dogtra.com/pathfinder

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