Tell me about casting a pointing dog

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OldDixieDown
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Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by OldDixieDown » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:44 am

Having worked retrievers, I'm familiar with casting retrievers (stop, sit, back, over, here, etc) and all the associated hand and whistle signals.

Can someone tell me about casting in the pointing dog world, more specifically in field trials, and the types of signals you give the dog to cast? For example, how do you turn a dog down a course to go to an objective?

Background: Most of my exposure to field trials has been gallery riding in all age stakes where the singing is for the dog's location of the handler, and any kind of hand movements are to show the judges if the dog shows on the course. The only thing I know related to casting a pointing dog is that there's a vocal call for the dog to turn and face you and see where you want it to go, a call for the dog to come to you, and that two hits of the whistle signals the dog to go out further down course.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by shags » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:03 pm

A field trial pointing dog better be hitting objectives without being directed. His job is to stay to the front and go to likely cover.

If there is a choice of likely cover or objective, the handler can use whatever signal he chooses to send the dog; sometimes it’s turning the horse, sometimes it’s a verbal, sometimes a whistle. Choice of objectives? Depends on several factors. Say the course is cut perpendicular by a hedgerow, and the dog turns to follow it with the wind at his back; handler may want to turn the dog or to get him to cut through in order to hit the next one correctly. Or say theres a perpendicular hedgerow and a parallel woodsline. If the handler knows the hedge holds birds, and needs one, he might send the dog there; but if he wants to show the dogs’s wheels or get on to another part of the course, he may want to have his dog along the woodsline.

There really isn’t any rule on what constitutes a correct signal to the dog - yell “Spaghetti amd meatballs!” or “Here!” whistle or ring a cowbell, it doesn’t make any difference in competition as long as the dog complies.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by isonychia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:02 pm

Yeah pointers should be clairvoyant. I got all in to quartering and training that way but then I realized some dogs are bred more for this style of hunting and others should really just cast out in front, smell something, and go. If you let a good dog develop its own style, you will find that often the dog knows more than you, this is especially apparent when you work with the wind at your back, the dog will do long casts and work the wind back in. French brittanys quarter more out in front, Americans develop a style and sense for where birds are. So is my understanding. I used to get so mad at my dog for just hanging on the logging road casting out in front, then get mad when he tore off 300 yards into dark timber for grouse. He knew what he was doing, I didn't. a 300 yard point on grouse is point-less, kinda like a tree falling with nobody to hear it. He reals it in these days, unless it is the opener.

Not sure on field trials but my understanding is he needs to find the bird as quickly as possible, and if braced, beat the brace mate. The idea of quartering kinda just turns me off anymore, what highly evolved hunting animal quarters? None I can think of.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by isonychia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:04 pm

Oh, and "This Way" two whistle blasts and I lunge my arm in the direction I want my dog to go to. Just to basically contradict everything I just said, but this is useful when I see birds he doesn't smell yet or I am looking for a dead bird and want to cover new ground.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by crackerd » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Since you're OldDixieDown doing the asking, gotta say, personally, that I always thought "Promise" in "The Biscuit Eater" was perfectly cast.

New York Times movie critic Bosley Crowther agreed with me:
From James Street's short story about a boy and his dog, Paramount has wrought a fragile, heart-warming pastoral of the Georgia hunting country in "The Biscuit Eater," which came yesterday to Loew's Criterion. It is not often that Hollywood pauses to contemplate such an ennobling theme, and we heartily recommend that all who have been clamoring for a change in the cinematic diet rally to the support of "The Biscuit Eater," for the reward will be rich indeed.

To be sure, the story is on the sentimental side, but thanks to the restrained direction of Stuart Heisler and the warmth and sincerity of 10-year-old Billy Lee it never becomes mawkish. It may perhaps be argued that an atmosphere of hokum permeates the film's closing moments, but hokum or no, only a cold heart could resist not being touched by Billy's tearful prayer for the dying Promise—the runt who alternately filled the youngster's heart with pride and anguish, but finally blossomed into a true champion.

Excellent though the actors are, they are no match for the bird dogs which dominate the story—especially the outcast Promise, a thoroughbred Georgia pointer with an off-screen reputation as well among fanciers under his rightful name, Tiverton Invader. A runt among a famous litter, Promise is presented to Billy by the owner of the plantation on which his father has spent a lifetime breeding champions. With youthful determination Billy decides to make a great champion out of his dog, a hopeless task in his father's opinion.

Much of the poignancy of "The Biscuit Eater" stems from the conflict which develops between father and son over Promise, who has a way of getting into trouble and commits the unpardonable sin of raiding the chicken coop, for which he is disparagingly dubbed a "biscuit eater." But despite disappointments, Billy has faith in his dog and through sheer patience and perseverance finally fits Promise for the field trials. These afford moments of memorable beauty, with the keen animals tracking down birds in the tall grass, holding point and retrieving the fallen birds without so much as leaving a toothmark on them.

The only disconcerting note in "The Biscuit Eater" is the appearance of a scabrous-faced Negro giant, who is introduced to give an added note of terror to the venture of Billy and his dusky playmate, Cordell Hickman, into the swamps in search of Promise. But that shouldn't keep the youngsters away, considering the picture's many fine points.

At Loew's Criterion
THE BISCUIT EATER; screen play by Stuart Anthony and Lillie Hayward; based on a short story by James Street; directed by Stuart Heisler; produced by Jack Moss for Paramount Pictures.
Promise . . . . . Tiverton Invader
Lonnie McNeil . . . . . Billy Lee
Text . . . . . Cordell Hickman
Mrs. McNeil . . . . . Helene Millard
Harvey McNeil . . . . . Richard Lane
Mr. Ames . . . . . Lester Matthews
1st and 2d Thessalonians . . . . . Snowflake
Field Judge . . . . . William Russell
Field Judge . . . . . Earl Johnson
Good luck going from retrievers to pointers, OldDixieDown - just joshing on the "casting" bidness.
MG

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:38 pm

I think both shags and isonychia see it the same as I do about how pointing breeds are supposed to work - that is, unlike flushers.
Flushers are very good at what they do so I'm not speaking to that style of work-dog-ship. That is where a pattern or quartering is vital.
Many people do not understand the philosophy of a brag bird dog, especially first timers. The only thing more challenging than a first timer is a person that HAD a flusher(s) previously. A pointing dog is - as shags and isonychia stated - supposed to take you to birds and not the other way around. Yes...you are a team and there are times when the best of bird dogs could use your support but it is truly rare of an experienced pointing dog. Far too many handlers want to steer their dogs to where they think birds otta be. This has a direct negative impact on the dog's success rate, and therefore indirectly on yours too.
Sometimes the dog gets it wrong but in most mistakes there is an underlying message and THAT is a building block in-of-itself which contributes towards a dynamic bird dog.
I train my dogs to handle with a minimum of verbal, no whistle and no hand signals. If I need to verbalize at all, that dog has just been put on notice. I will not speak again!
The only thing I like to hear is the beeper indicating a find (in dense cover), which dictates that I immediately turn it off via the remote. The next thing you should hear is a gun shot. OK...maybe two shots. OK, OK...usually two! :oops:

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:50 pm

I don't trial or test my pointer... and I always had springers before her... But I just let her do her thing and follow her nose. From a meat hunter's perspective there are really two times I handle her search. 1. When I'm changing direction and she can't see me. 2. When there's an objective I know holds birds and I'm trying to get the wind in her favor.
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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by polmaise » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:45 pm

'Questing' or 'Quartering' is not a natural thing for a dog .
Hunting and searching into the wind Is.
For competition and or shooting over ones dog to gain all available game in the area you are hunting ,requires the dog to cover all the ground ,not just the ground that the dog chooses depending on cover or wind .
.........
Casting ' , well it's a moot point , but I always start with the dog facing me ,rather than away from me ! ..It just kinda makes it like I'm Telling the dog where to go first ;) ..like cast off to the right ,or the left . lol
Another side note , is I always cast the dog firstly to the left if the wind is from the right ,and firstly to the right if the wind is from the left . Why?, because I know it will ''turn in to the wind'' ;) ..If You want, you can give two pips or one pip or whistle dixie and make yourself look good when the dog turns . Mama say's she gonna turn anyway because of the wind (if she has a nose and is using it ;) )
Withe a Head wind , It's in your favour to have the dog facing You , stops that pointer going straight in to it ;) ..But then you have to 'train the dog first' rather than them gold ole boy's ''let the dog hunt'' stuff ;) . A tail wind is a bit tricky , but thee very best way to get the dog trained to take a cast and direction ;) ... :idea: 8)

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:52 pm

I try to give the dog the wind in it's favour for as long a period as possible. If the situation is suitable for a dog to quarter an approximately equal distance to either side of the handler then I do the following...... Straight on headwind - I can cast the dog to left or right and the wind will be in it's favour so it doesn't really matter which side I cast the dog to from my side .

Partial headwind ..... I cast the dog out "with the wind" (in the same direction the wind is blowing to) but I cast the dog at a forward angle to my position.The dog will be doing it's initial outrun with the wind blowing up it's tail to some extent but only during that cast. When the dog turns it will be running to come back across me with the wind in it's favour and because the dog will be running out about the same distance to my other side , it will have the wind in it's favour for all of that distance and for every cast made during the rest of it's hunt. The casts made back towards me will be shorter in length than the outward casts.

To put this in another way, only during that very first cast will the wind not be in the dogs favour. Most dogs, if they are not hacked back and forth across the handler like clockwork mice , will naturally do things in this way anyway...... There are a lot of "clockwork mice" trainers in Britain ! :roll:

Cheek winds ....much the same thing. Cast the dog off with the wind then let the dog sort out the "pattern" and provided that pattern is not too open, do not interfere with whistles , shouts and arm signals.

Tail winds ......well ..... ideally do not hunt a dog on a tailwind unless you can accept a few bumps. I have had only one dog that did a text book tailwind pattern and she did it quite naturally. I did try training other dogs to do the same thing as her but never with any great success. Their natural hunting pattern on a tailwind was to hunt in front of me in an interlocking series of ovals or loops. This does work but it isn't "textbook" and it can result in more bumped birds than you would want to see.

I'm curious ..... In Britain pointer and setter trials can be very difficult to get through. The judges tend to judge "hard" and a downwind turn can knock points off while more than just one can get you eliminated. It would be unusual for a dog to be eliminated during it's first cast from the handlers side however . A little bit of leeway is usually allowed during that first part of a dogs run . The judges give the dogs a little time to sort out the wind direction.

Is this the same in your trials ?
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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:41 pm

One is better to have the dog do what you want from the start .
Without any 'leeway' .. In the words of the great Col Blimp :wink:

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:09 pm

Polmaise/Trekmoor, while trials/tests on opposite sides of the pond may be diverse, pointing dogs here in NA typically inhabit territory that is supremely vast, meaning it requires a smart dog as much as a well-trained one. A dog of mine needs to know that in said vast arena, it needs to apply itself efficiently/intelligently, or you will run out of dog LONG before you run out of shells (which is precisely why I only work one dog at a time). Good dogs learn to work the wind regardless of whether it is in their face or up their asterisk. It is rarely in their face both coming and going. Good dogs realize that high winds change the rules of the game. Good dogs correct themselves from mistakes made in the field.
A dog that handles flawlessly, points reliably, retrieves consistently, can only do so from available opportunities. How to handle those opportunities on the wild birds "I" hunt, starts with formal/preliminary training but can only rise to the surface from field experience acquired, such as:
- where wild birds typically hide (smart application),
- habits wild birds typically utilize in various weather conditions (mistakes made),
- time of day (exposure),
- how the bird season has unfolded to date (hunting pressure, predation, weather, etc.),
- how said dog applies/adjusts itself (targets objectives, gait, pace, savvy ground work) and more.
If your comments are specific to flushers, I get it. If you speak of pointing breeds on this side of the pond, you need not bring a gun along, or shells.
Here, you need to develop a working bond with your dog that comes from minimal handler intervention and yet a dog that handles like it is on a remote control as it targets those places that support the odds.
"Whistles, shouts, arms" flailing have no place in "my" spectrum of wild bird venues.
The greatest challenges in developing said dogs lie in the handler rather than the dog (assuming the bird numbers are reasonable).

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:52 pm

OldDixieDown wrote:Having worked retrievers, I'm familiar with casting retrievers (stop, sit, back, over, here, etc) and all the associated hand and whistle signals.

Can someone tell me about casting in the pointing dog world, more specifically in field trials, and the types of signals you give the dog to cast? For example, how do you turn a dog down a course to go to an objective?

Background: Most of my exposure to field trials has been gallery riding in all age stakes where the singing is for the dog's location of the handler, and any kind of hand movements are to show the judges if the dog shows on the course. The only thing I know related to casting a pointing dog is that there's a vocal call for the dog to turn and face you and see where you want it to go, a call for the dog to come to you, and that two hits of the whistle signals the dog to go out further down course.
I train my dogs the whistle means go and how to turn. Aside from that once they learn where the birds are (usually after the 1st summer on the prairie) all I do is sing to them, turn the horse and if I want him to turn on the after burner I blow the pea out of my whistle.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:56 am

Trekmoor wrote:. Most dogs, if they are not hacked back and forth across the handler like clockwork mice , will naturally do things in this way anyway.

Bill T.
Featherfinder - I don't think we are in disagreement. I like and expect dogs to do the hunting themselves but in the more confined hunting areas in Britain it is advisable to have a dog that will "handle" when that is needed. I therefor do train dogs a "Go hunt" whistle , a stop whistle and a turn and recall whistle and sometimes use an arm signal too. My voice is very seldom used during a hunt.

It is true that we do not have the wide open spaces of many parts of America but a Scottish grouse moor can extend a long, long way in every direction , far more ground than anyone on foot could walk in one day. That ground can be flattish moorland like the Floe Country up in north east Scotland or it can be very mountainous like the north west of Scotland or it can be a less extreme mixture of hills and moors like much of the rest of Scotland.

When I hunt dogs for grouse I "let 'em rip" .....it's the best way to find grouse up on the dogging moors where the birds are few and far between. I usually hunt grouse working two or three pointing dogs and I hunt them one at a time to avoid exhausting all the dogs at the same time. The heather hills and moors can be very hard on a dog as heather is a small bush that scrapes the skin right off a dogs belly. Hunt just one dog all day over the heather and it will be exhausted, foot sore from the scree slopes and bleeding on it's belly.

Some of the men who take out clients onto the dogging moors for a week at a time take with them as many as 8 dogs . The dogs are split into two lots. One "lot" is rested while the other lot take turns each to hunt that day, the following day , the other lot do the work while the others rest.
One of the reasons why doing that sort of dog work pays from about £100 per day to about £160 per day (and that was a few years back ) is that keeping and training that number of dogs all year round for a hunting season of only a few months is rather expensive !

Then there is the other extreme of "easy hunting"..... nice easy fields and woodlands . I took clients out over that kind of ground too but it pays far less per day. I always preferred the grouse hunting and wish I was still fit enough to do it.

Sorry for the "ramble" but I felt I had to make clear that not all hunting in Scotland is done among small fields and woods. England isn't all small fields either but there is less dog running space down in most parts of Sassenach land.
Basically, in Scotland, we need dogs that are capable of being hunted in wide open spaces and in much tighter spaces so , if we are wise, we train accordingly.

Bill T.
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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:41 am

Trekmoor, you bring back such fond memories. My wife is Scottish. We have been to visit family on 3 occasions. On the one occasion, I purchased a field magazine. Through it I contacted a lady in Aberdeen that trialed English pointers. She was kind enough to invite me up so I travelled from coast of Ayrshire. I remember thinking I would head out early, spend a 1/2 day with her and her dogs then return home. Our friends there thought I was crazy trying that in the same day. :)
Anyway, she took me out onto a Scottish moor to we work her dogs in a brace. The craigs, the sea, the moor, the fine dogs, the grouse........I felt the need to pinch myself! It was good for the soul. I will never forget it Sir.
Pointers, a grouse moor followed by a wee dram.......heaven on earth!!
Yes, you would need a savvy, fit team of dogs to handle that expanse of tenacious heather! It's no place for the feint of heart.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by crackerd » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:54 am

Featherfinder, you and the ol' Bill of the brae have forced me into asking, and not for the first time: Whither Archbishop Derry Argue? Hope he's still extant and cranky (or "crankily enlightening!") as ever with his mastery of pointing dogs.

MG

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:03 am

As far as I am aware Derry Argue is still in the land of the living ? He must be getting on a bit in years now though. I never met him but did correspond with him a few times by letter. His views and mine about the K.C. and field trialing in general were remarkably similar ! :lol:

Featherfinder. What you described ....the crags, the sea, the moors etc. are exactly the reason why I never emigrated to the U.S.A. or Canada or New Zealand. --- Everything I love to see is right here and close at hand compared to "over the pond." My sister lives in Canada but her efforts to entice me to move to there have been in vain ! :lol: My name on this forum of "Trekmoor" is derived from all the walking I have done over Scotland's moors ! :lol:

I used to live on the outskirts of Edinburgh and could be hunting partridge, pheasant, snipe within 3 minutes of leaving my house. The nearest grouse were only a 15 minutes car drive away .....and those grouse were on "public land." I could not shoot them but my dogs got a lot of practice in hunting for them and pointing them. Within 25 - 35 minutes journey from my house I could work my dogs over what were normally "driven" grouse moors (think hills !) I did grouse counts on those hills and did picking-up there too using any gundogs I had at the time ....spaniel, lab, Brittany, GSP.

I had no trouble at all in finding good places where I could work my dogs .....decent dogs are welcomed on most shoots. I used to get quite annoyed by people who, having bought a pointing breed pup of some kind , then complained there was nowhere to train the pup ! All they had to do was do a bit of exploring and asking around nicely.

Very recently I told the keeper on an estate I go picking up on that I did not want to be paid in future as I could no longer do the walking involved. He laughed as he replied ....."Dinnae come then , just send yer dugs instead !" :lol: I now get placed nearest to the vehicles and he still insists on paying me .....although he has asked two other pickers up not to return next season ! He told me they were not "doing the job." They were too interested in training their dogs for trials and using "his" birds and estate to do that on.

I find it hard to imagine a better place to train and work a gundog over than exists in Scotland .......scratch a Scot ...find a patriot ! :lol:

Bill T.
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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by polmaise » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:41 pm

Featherfinder wrote: Here, you need to develop a working bond with your dog that comes from minimal handler intervention and yet a dog that handles like it is on a remote control as it targets those places that support the odds.
"Whistles, shouts, arms" flailing have no place in "my" spectrum of wild bird venues.
I can get that F-finder,
The post I thought was about casting a pointing dog ,not continuously doing so,that would be questing .
Big running dogs with the fantasy of running off in to the Prairie or the grouse moor in Scotland may appear majestic , but if it goes straight out it can't cover the ground to the left or right :wink: , so it requires a 'Cast' first . .....I don't like ''Stravaiging'' dogs ..of any breed.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:24 pm

I hear you Polmaise. I hunt the prairies which consist of miles - literally - of twice-cut grain fields. There are no objectives or one could say, it is all one big objective. And yet, my recently deceased setter and currently her "nephew" seem to just know how to apply themselves effectively. Do we pass up birds? Hmm....perhaps? Do we find birds that an otherwise more methodical dog might not have extended to? Hmmm....perhaps? That said, "finding birds" versus "holding birds for the gun" are two very diverse dynamics.
Wild birds can take on a variety of survival instincts. My dogs learn that their successes are directly proportional to their distance from the handler - within reason. Seems logical if you think about it. Try navigating our ruffed grouse woods quietly. Good luck with that! Therefore a close working methodical dog makes for a low percentage ruffed grouse dog. Even on the prairies, especially in high winds, wild birds will prioritize vision over compromised hearing. That means the birds might see a dog coming, perhaps....especially a methodical one with handler in tow. I am confident the birds can see us coming from a long way off.
Further-to-this, I have seen many an amateur over-handle their dogs. The end result is that their dogs still find birds BUT rarely is there a good opportunity for a high percentage and therefore ethical shot. That's because the wild birds I hunt won't take that abuse. Once they hear that handler, they are either making a hasty escape (often sight unseen) OR as the poor dog finally approximates the very edge of the scent cone, that bird(s) is already feeling the ADDED pressure and.....off it goes. The comments that often follow are something like, "My dog finds birds no problem but he often bumps them." Then they follow with, "Perhaps he just doesn't have the nose?" In reality, that poor dog never stood a chance - too much yacking, hacking, whistling, arms flailing about! Honestly.........??
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the practice or methods utilized by my dogs are often brought to fruition by success on wild birds. That is why "I" prefer that my dogs learn and become proficient at taking me to the birds. If I have to intervene by taking an adult/finished dog(s) to birds, I don't need that dog.
As I understand it, your typical methods would also work well here but predominantly for hunt club or game farm hunts rather than on the wild birds I hunt.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:14 am

It's an interesting subject. There are thousands of acres of public land and/or land owned by the local town council that can be hunted over , but not shot over, all around where I live. No birds are released there but generations of wild pheasants have bred there only surviving because they get quickly out of the way of the many predators .....foxes, badgers, feral cats , otters, American mink and a lot of dog walkers dogs.

A red letter day for me was when one of my pointing dogs could find, point and then produce just 4 or 5 of those pheasants during a 4 hour hunt. I had no choice but to let my dogs (hunted singly) hunt a long way out from me over fields of high grasses studded with little thorn bushes, bramble patches, willowherb patches and gorse bush patches. Very often I lost sight of the dog and if it did not reappear I had to depend on my own sort of inbuilt radar to find it on point out there...... I don't use GPS collars or even bells. It's funny how a person can somehow develop an ability to find a dog on point !

A man from England moved into my area a few months back and he has an HPR. Since he didn't have a clue about where he could hunt his dog around here I told him where to find a couple of areas where birds were more likely to be found. He contacted me again a couple of weeks back to say that both he and his dog have had to climb a very steep learning curve . He and his dog had been used to hunting for birds down in England that lived in greater numbers on far more "manicured" ground.

The man had been forced by the local conditions here to give up some of his "control" in favour of allowing his dog to use more of it's own initiative and allow it to hunt much wider. His comment was that the birds ran like stink at the first hint of trouble on the horizon and took a lot of pinning down ! :lol:
He says he now feels he is a more accomplished hunter .....and so is his dog. The difference between a dog finding and pointing a released pheasant and a truly wild one is considerable . Any pheasant around here that is not expert at dodging predators will not survive long enough to breed.

Bill T.
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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by crackerd » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:44 am

Get thee a spinone! For lots more red letter days to come on the brae - and the gorse, of course.
Trekmoor wrote:It's an interesting subject. There are thousands of acres of public land and/or land owned by the local town council that can be hunted over , but not shot over, all around where I live. No birds are released there but generations of wild pheasants have bred there only surviving because they get quickly out of the way of the many predators .....foxes, badgers, feral cats , otters, American mink and a lot of dog walkers dogs.

A red letter day for me was when one of my pointing dogs could find, point and then produce just 4 or 5 of those pheasants during a 4 hour hunt. I had no choice but to let my dogs (hunted singly) hunt a long way out from me over fields of high grasses studded with little thorn bushes, bramble patches, willowherb patches and gorse bush patches. Very often I lost sight of the dog and if it did not reappear I had to depend on my own sort of inbuilt radar to find it on point out there...... I don't use GPS collars or even bells. It's funny how a person can somehow develop an ability to find a dog on point !

A man from England moved into my area a few months back and he has an HPR. Since he didn't have a clue about where he could hunt his dog around here I told him where to find a couple of areas where birds were more likely to be found. He contacted me again a couple of weeks back to say that both he and his dog have had to climb a very steep learning curve . He and his dog had been used to hunting for birds down in England that lived in greater numbers on far more "manicured" ground.

The man had been forced by the local conditions here to give up some of his "control" in favour of allowing his dog to use more of it's own initiative and allow it to hunt much wider. His comment was that the birds ran like stink at the first hint of trouble on the horizon and took a lot of pinning down ! :lol:
He says he now feels he is a more accomplished hunter .....and so is his dog. The difference between a dog finding and pointing a released pheasant and a truly wild one is considerable . Any pheasant around here that is not expert at dodging predators will not survive long enough to breed.

Bill T.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:33 am

:lol: None of the admittedly few Spinone's I've seen in this country were anything like fast enough or wide ranging enough , to find and hold on point the wild bred pheasants around here. The faster moving breeds sort of "cut the birds off at the pass !" The faster dogs are on 'em before the bird knows what is happening for sure. :lol: So you can keep your spaghetti hounds ta very much ! :lol: :lol:

More seriously, I think you must have better working lines of spinones over there ? I quite like the look of the breed but so far I have never seen one I'd like to own and work.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:10 am

Trekmoor wrote:The faster moving breeds sort of "cut the birds off at the pass !" The faster dogs are on 'em before the bird knows what is happening for sure.
Bill T.
That's about the same way it works over here.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by polmaise » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:31 pm

Featherfinder wrote:I hear you Polmaise. I hunt the prairies which consist of miles - literally - of twice-cut grain fields. There are no objectives or one could say, it is all one big objective. And yet, my recently deceased setter and currently her "nephew" seem to just know how to apply themselves effectively. Do we pass up birds? Hmm....perhaps? Do we find birds that an otherwise more methodical dog might not have extended to? Hmmm....perhaps? That said, "finding birds" versus "holding birds for the gun" are two very diverse dynamics.
Wild birds can take on a variety of survival instincts. My dogs learn that their successes are directly proportional to their distance from the handler - within reason. Seems logical if you think about it. Try navigating our ruffed grouse woods quietly. Good luck with that! Therefore a close working methodical dog makes for a low percentage ruffed grouse dog. Even on the prairies, especially in high winds, wild birds will prioritize vision over compromised hearing. That means the birds might see a dog coming, perhaps....especially a methodical one with handler in tow. I am confident the birds can see us coming from a long way off.
Further-to-this, I have seen many an amateur over-handle their dogs. The end result is that their dogs still find birds BUT rarely is there a good opportunity for a high percentage and therefore ethical shot. That's because the wild birds I hunt won't take that abuse. Once they hear that handler, they are either making a hasty escape (often sight unseen) OR as the poor dog finally approximates the very edge of the scent cone, that bird(s) is already feeling the ADDED pressure and.....off it goes. The comments that often follow are something like, "My dog finds birds no problem but he often bumps them." Then they follow with, "Perhaps he just doesn't have the nose?" In reality, that poor dog never stood a chance - too much yacking, hacking, whistling, arms flailing about! Honestly.........??
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the practice or methods utilized by my dogs are often brought to fruition by success on wild birds. That is why "I" prefer that my dogs learn and become proficient at taking me to the birds. If I have to intervene by taking an adult/finished dog(s) to birds, I don't need that dog.
As I understand it, your typical methods would also work well here but predominantly for hunt club or game farm hunts rather than on the wild birds I hunt.
Semantics , F-Finder. We are probably agreeing on Synonyms . :wink: .
..''Casting'' in my language is to send the dog in a direction !...
If The handler can't do that or the dog doesn't go that way , then that's 'Self employment' ..In my book.
Reading a dog whilst hunting it requires the handler to either shut up , and do nothing allowing the dog to get on with it or 'cast it' to where it should be getting on with it !...(Ever had one of them stubborn ones that get stuck on residual scent ?) ....That ain't Au Naturel ....So whilst In Training before we get that phenomenal being it may just require a little help to get there , otherwise we'all are just following something :roll: ..
I'm sure like Bill said , the Moors in Scotland are no more different to the prairies by way of open space ,but I don't want to be 'Trekmooring' all over them for nothing :wink:

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:38 pm

polmaise wrote:
Featherfinder wrote:I hear you Polmaise. I hunt the prairies which consist of miles - literally - of twice-cut grain fields. There are no objectives or one could say, it is all one big objective. And yet, my recently deceased setter and currently her "nephew" seem to just know how to apply themselves effectively. Do we pass up birds? Hmm....perhaps? Do we find birds that an otherwise more methodical dog might not have extended to? Hmmm....perhaps? That said, "finding birds" versus "holding birds for the gun" are two very diverse dynamics.
Wild birds can take on a variety of survival instincts. My dogs learn that their successes are directly proportional to their distance from the handler - within reason. Seems logical if you think about it. Try navigating our ruffed grouse woods quietly. Good luck with that! Therefore a close working methodical dog makes for a low percentage ruffed grouse dog. Even on the prairies, especially in high winds, wild birds will prioritize vision over compromised hearing. That means the birds might see a dog coming, perhaps....especially a methodical one with handler in tow. I am confident the birds can see us coming from a long way off.
Further-to-this, I have seen many an amateur over-handle their dogs. The end result is that their dogs still find birds BUT rarely is there a good opportunity for a high percentage and therefore ethical shot. That's because the wild birds I hunt won't take that abuse. Once they hear that handler, they are either making a hasty escape (often sight unseen) OR as the poor dog finally approximates the very edge of the scent cone, that bird(s) is already feeling the ADDED pressure and.....off it goes. The comments that often follow are something like, "My dog finds birds no problem but he often bumps them." Then they follow with, "Perhaps he just doesn't have the nose?" In reality, that poor dog never stood a chance - too much yacking, hacking, whistling, arms flailing about! Honestly.........??
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the practice or methods utilized by my dogs are often brought to fruition by success on wild birds. That is why "I" prefer that my dogs learn and become proficient at taking me to the birds. If I have to intervene by taking an adult/finished dog(s) to birds, I don't need that dog.
As I understand it, your typical methods would also work well here but predominantly for hunt club or game farm hunts rather than on the wild birds I hunt.
Semantics , F-Finder. We are probably agreeing on Synonyms . :wink: .
..''Casting'' in my language is to send the dog in a direction !...
If The handler can't do that or the dog doesn't go that way , then that's 'Self employment' ..In my book.
Reading a dog whilst hunting it requires the handler to either shut up , and do nothing allowing the dog to get on with it or 'cast it' to where it should be getting on with it !...(Ever had one of them stubborn ones that get stuck on residual scent ?) ....That ain't Au Naturel ....So whilst In Training before we get that phenomenal being it may just require a little help to get there , otherwise we'all are just following something :roll: ..
I'm sure like Bill said , the Moors in Scotland are no more different to the prairies by way of open space ,but I don't want to be 'Trekmooring' all over them for nothing :wink:
Well, casting a dog (sending it in a particular direction) in my world involves getting the dogs attention (which if we are following feathers "silent mode" we simply wait till the dog finishes the cast it is on and then is aware of us before moving off) and then turning in the direction I want the dog to take - they will find the best way to "hunt" their way to the front.

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Re: Tell me about casting a pointing dog

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:37 am

True, Polmaise and Slistoe. Here is something I share with folk that over-handle or feel the need to cast their dogs too often.
If I'm driving home and get stopped for speeding, am subsequently presented with a ticket, I'm not a happy camper. When I get home, there may be 6 dogs ( I don't take more than 6 dogs at a time MAX) in the kennels. When I come around the corner to greet them, 5 if not 6 will disappear into their indoor kennels! I can say whatever I like, "Nice dogs...Hello my friends....good dogs..." They won't buy it.
Why?
Because my body language (which approximates their language) is saying in bold neon lights, "He is REALLY pissed about something...it wasn't me! I'm going inside!"
So if a dog is that perceptive, why do we-of-superior-intelligence need to be out there yacking, whistling and/or flailing? Sorry....it doesn't add up.
Do I assist my dogs in their application whether in dense grouse woods or open prairie? Darn right I do, with EVERY step I take. When I start young dogs out, it is THEIR responsibility to keep tabs on where I'm going - not the other way around. I hunt birds, not dogs.
I take you back to the speeding ticket: If they are that perceptive, they only need a nominal indication from us to completely understand the general direction "we" are going in.
Take me into a forest and tie a ribbon on a tree of your choice. I can take my dog(s) out of the truck and we will run right past your tree of choice. All I have to do is walk......sssshhh! :wink:

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