pup biting

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: pup biting

Post by shags » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:38 am

I agree with CJ, you have to be firm and not weenie out on corrections. Pups seem to intuitively know our intent *in that moment* so you can't be all gentle and worried that he won't like you anymore or grow up to be your buddy. His dam would have given him a good growl and snap the first time, and be done with it. Scruff the little roughneck and say "Enough!" and mean it.

As far as oveying obedience commands. for now while he's so little I'd be happy with him minding you while in 'class' . You can give commands randomly throughout the day, but be sure you can reinforce/correct him before doing so...him learning to ignore you because you say it but don't make him do it is not something that will serve you well going forward. You don't have to be stern, make it a bit happy time, just be sure to correct or reward as warranted.

The independent minded pups like your can be a real pain in the neck sometimes, but those are the ones that teach you to be a real trainer, and IMO are the most fun.

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:40 am

I.M.O. this pup's biting behaviour has been made worse by the owners well meant avoidance of using sufficient force to correct the behaviour. Like many others on this forum I've had pups that really liked to bite . I've got one such bitch at present , my 14 - 15 months old lab bitch. She was a demon biter when she was younger ....like 2 -4 months old .....I ended up giving her my hand and when she took it and put pressure on I pushed my hand further into her mouth ......half choking her !

My wife took a different approach, she just gave the pup a good hard slap on the lughole while yelling angrily ! Both ways worked , the pup no longer puts any pressure onto her hand holds but she does still love to take a hand inside her mouth.

The point is that neither I or my wife went gently on the pup's behaviour . Don't "nag" at the pup, this is a case where one swift , hard correction is worth many little ones .....that a pup can build up a resistance to.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

User avatar
Kovan
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 8:28 am

Re: pup biting

Post by Kovan » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:48 am

shags wrote:I agree with CJ, you have to be firm and not weenie out on corrections. Pups seem to intuitively know our intent *in that moment* so you can't be all gentle and worried that he won't like you anymore or grow up to be your buddy. His dam would have given him a good growl and snap the first time, and be done with it. Scruff the little roughneck and say "Enough!" and mean it.

As far as oveying obedience commands. for now while he's so little I'd be happy with him minding you while in 'class' . You can give commands randomly throughout the day, but be sure you can reinforce/correct him before doing so...him learning to ignore you because you say it but don't make him do it is not something that will serve you well going forward. You don't have to be stern, make it a bit happy time, just be sure to correct or reward as warranted.

The independent minded pups like your can be a real pain in the neck sometimes, but those are the ones that teach you to be a real trainer, and IMO are the most fun.

I will do my best. I am planning to take him to class as soon as he gets all of his shots. And yes i shouldnt weenie out when i am trying to correct him. I guess this is where they say good dog good trainer, bad dog bad trainer. I really enjoy training my pup and spending time with him. I just want to make sure he knows who i am and who to obey in the future. Being a first time dog owner this is something new to me that it will take some time for me to learn also..i just have to much what if’s

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:20 pm

Trekmoor wrote: The point is that neither I or my wife went gently on the pup's behaviour . Don't "nag" at the pup, this is a case where one swift , hard correction is worth many little ones .....that a pup can build up a resistance to.

Bill T.
Don't any build up a resistance to hard correction ?

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: pup biting

Post by shags » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:41 pm

polmaise wrote:
Trekmoor wrote: The point is that neither I or my wife went gently on the pup's behaviour . Don't "nag" at the pup, this is a case where one swift , hard correction is worth many little ones .....that a pup can build up a resistance to.

Bill T.
Don't any build up a resistance to hard correction ?
Not if you choose your battles wisely and limit hard correction to your most important training priorities. And by hard, I don't think anyone means being cruel or bullying, but just harsh enough to get the point across.

You well know what is meant here...no more "Ouch, stop it, Fluffy. Please stop. Ow! Can you please stop biting me?" vs "No bite!" accompanied by a scruffing or a chuck under the chin. Once and done.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm

shags wrote: Don't any build up a resistance to hard correction ?
Not if you choose your battles wisely and limit hard correction to your most important training priorities. And by hard, I don't think anyone means being cruel or bullying, but just harsh enough to get the point across.

You well know what is meant here...no more "Ouch, stop it, Fluffy. Please stop. Ow! Can you please stop biting me?" vs "No bite!" accompanied by a scruffing or a chuck under the chin. Once and done.[/quote]
Yip !!
I get that .. Now is there a DVD or a You tube clip, or video you can demonstrate this (not for me ) but perhaps the Op or others on this open forum so that they can all learn 8)

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: pup biting

Post by shags » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:13 pm

LOL, all I find on Youtube is what *not* to do. Yelp and leave the room....substitute a toy for your hand...ummm, no.

I guess chucking a pup under its chin, or scruffing him, or giving him a 'goosehead' poke with your fingers isn't all that hard to figure out. Most has been described in this thread or similar ones 8)

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:05 pm

lol. you would think that such a common question and occurrence would at least have someone somewhere that has a clip demonstrating the procedure ? :mrgreen: :)

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: pup biting

Post by slistoe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:26 pm

polmaise wrote:lol. you would think that such a common question and occurrence would at least have someone somewhere that has a clip demonstrating the procedure ? :mrgreen: :)
In this age of ill informed, know-it-all, SJW types you certainly won't find me putting one up - social media suicide is what that would be.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by polmaise » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:46 am

slistoe wrote: In this age of ill informed, know-it-all, SJW types you certainly won't find me putting one up - social media suicide is what that would be.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Funny how there are plenty that don't hesitate to say it but won't show it . Could be that it may be interpreted wrongly . lol

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:12 am

It's interesting how perceptions of what is "cruel" or excessive correction change over time. 50 years ago I was an apprentice guide dog for the blind trainer. Along with all the other trainers and apprentices I was required to read and memorise a little booklet written by someone called Capt. Liakhoff . It was a sort of small bible of possible combinations of dominance /aggression/submission/nervousness and of how these things could affect a dogs training.
The author was in favour of giving one swift , hard correction if it really needed to be given rather than a series of gradually escalating in strength smaller corrections. He believed a dog could build up a resistance to minor corrections requiring the trainer to apply ever stronger ones until the trainer was having to apply a considerably stronger correction than would have been needed if he had just given one correction strong enough to "do the job" in the first place !

Much of that little booklet has been "poo- pood" now but that does not mean the man was entirely wrong.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by polmaise » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:32 pm

From a book or a text .Or even on a forum ! A correction and the statement of it is incomprehensible to every one reading it . It may be understood by some ,the danger is that it is misunderstood by many . :wink:

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: pup biting

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:10 pm

Trekmoor wrote:It's interesting how perceptions of what is "cruel" or excessive correction change over time. 50 years ago I was an apprentice guide dog for the blind trainer. Along with all the other trainers and apprentices I was required to read and memorise a little booklet written by someone called Capt. Liakhoff . It was a sort of small bible of possible combinations of dominance /aggression/submission/nervousness and of how these things could affect a dogs training.
The author was in favour of giving one swift , hard correction if it really needed to be given rather than a series of gradually escalating in strength smaller corrections. He believed a dog could build up a resistance to minor corrections requiring the trainer to apply ever stronger ones until the trainer was having to apply a considerably stronger correction than would have been needed if he had just given one correction strong enough to "do the job" in the first place !

Much of that little booklet has been "poo- pood" now but that does not mean the man was entirely wrong.

Bill T.
That was why, at first, there was so much resistance to variable intensity electric collars. It was felt by many, and still is, that small corrections built electrical tolerance. Now with today's collars, I don't think that concern is valid but with the old ones it was.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by polmaise » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:19 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
That was why, at first, there was so much resistance to variable intensity electric collars. It was felt by many, and still is, that small corrections built electrical tolerance. Now with today's collars, I don't think that concern is valid but with the old ones it was.
Curious that many Retriever folk in the US ,advocate Hillmann Puppy e-collar approach with slight nick with the so many variable levels and modern technology , and they still quote and advocate Aycock and even Rex ,when they achieved much without modern technology .

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: pup biting

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:17 pm

Not strange at all. The Carr system is the one used by nearly everyone just wit variable intensity,. Rex and Judy trained with the 70 and high was the only intensity anyone had. So today, you may correct the dog with say, a level 3 nick. If the dog ignores, you go to a 4. Next time he screws up, you hit him with a 3 again. He ignores that, go to four. Now, he may be jerking you around. If he screws up the same command again, I'll go right to a 5 and get it over with, keep him honest. Usually then I can go back to the 3.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: pup biting

Post by polmaise » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:34 pm

I said Curious not Strange .
Life in numbers sounds so logical . Say it ain't so with a dog :)

Post Reply