Breaking my Setter...

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Me&Mackinaw
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Breaking my Setter...

Post by Me&Mackinaw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:47 pm

I’ve been in the process of breaking the chase out of my Setter. He’s 15 months old. He’s been through a season of grouse and woodcock. He made 1 single honest point throughout 18 days of hunting. He chased about a dozen and a half. I’ve met all other major milestones... heel, recall, quartering, whistle or voice, gun broke and whoa broke. I can stop him on a dime. He was exposed to training chukars from 3 months... and now pigeons. I started back in December with him on the barrel with a tethered pigeon in front of him. I didn’t let him bust. He got good at just staying still. Then I moved him off the barrel and on the ground In same scenario. Good to go. Moved out to the field with remote launcher and tethered pigeon... he’s maintaining point. I never corrected him when teaching him whoa, which I started teaching in month 4. Again, he stops on a dime and I can make him honest when I command him to hold point, but what I’m worried about is proofing him. There is no “consequence” for not holding point or showing because I’ve never had to correct him. I feel like that’s a part to the machine that I didn’t install. For example... when teaching him to recall, I rewarded him and he wanted to do good. When he decided to disregard, I gave him a buzz and he pulled it together. Now he won’t deny me because I have the leverage. He’s obedient because he knows it’s a good life if he is, and a hard one if he isnt. Bottom line is that he doesn’t know the bad part of not being staunch or steady. Am I overthinking this? How can I make him crack to show him the other side of the fence now?

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:31 am

I don't think I would want to "break" a dog . My advice is not to be too obsessed with how to correct a dog if it isn't doing anything wrong. Praise the good , correct behaviours, be patient when training out the incorrect behaviours.

It is very possible that I have misunderstood your post , if so I apologise .

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Gordon Guy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:09 am

When he was a pup did he ever point wild birds? Or did you just start on Chukar and pigeons? When you say he chased a dozen and a half, did he flush them and chase?
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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Moulders Farm » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:55 am

Mike miller taught me the best way of training I know of put a pigion in a small plastick cage with weights so the bird can not excapt with a longt string bring your dog to it with a check cord when he points slowly pull the string turning over the cage let the pogion walk off a little then it will fly keeping the dog on a tight check cord . he will learn to watch it walk & fly at a study you can even let some one shoot in the air as it flys then when you wont to relice the dog do so at your comand

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:59 am

Me&Mackinaw wrote:I’ve been in the process of breaking the chase out of my Setter. He’s 15 months old. He’s been through a season of grouse and woodcock. He made 1 single honest point throughout 18 days of hunting. He chased about a dozen and a half. I’ve met all other major milestones... heel, recall, quartering, whistle or voice, gun broke and whoa broke. I can stop him on a dime. He was exposed to training chukars from 3 months... and now pigeons. I started back in December with him on the barrel with a tethered pigeon in front of him. I didn’t let him bust. He got good at just staying still. Then I moved him off the barrel and on the ground In same scenario. Good to go. Moved out to the field with remote launcher and tethered pigeon... he’s maintaining point. I never corrected him when teaching him whoa, which I started teaching in month 4. Again, he stops on a dime and I can make him honest when I command him to hold point, but what I’m worried about is proofing him. There is no “consequence” for not holding point or showing because I’ve never had to correct him. I feel like that’s a part to the machine that I didn’t install. For example... when teaching him to recall, I rewarded him and he wanted to do good. When he decided to disregard, I gave him a buzz and he pulled it together. Now he won’t deny me because I have the leverage. He’s obedient because he knows it’s a good life if he is, and a hard one if he isnt. Bottom line is that he doesn’t know the bad part of not being staunch or steady. Am I overthinking this? How can I make him crack to show him the other side of the fence now?
Yes...I t does seem you are overthinking this just a bit.

It seems you have a very nice young dog that is well on its way. If it is standing on a barrel and not diving off... it figured out that standing there was its best option. If it stands there when on the ground in the yard and on the ground in the field, it has made the connection there as well.

The dog knows what happens when it doesn't recall promptly. That means, to me, that the dog knows what a negative consequence for failure to comply is. Job accomplished. Move on.

I would continue to work with the youngster as you have, with pigeons and traps...occasionally throwing a bird across in front of the dog to tempt it to move. In each case... praise( a pat on the flank) and a word or two of approval is what is needed. positive reinforcement. A couple hundred repetitions over the next several months and you will have all the proofing you need.

Some dogs just come along the way you hope they will. It sounds as though you may have one of those. The more it "learns" to stand and hold its birds...the more it will become its default response. If so...count yourself as lucky.

It sounds as if whatever you are doing, the dog is responding very nicely. Keep doing what you are doing, the way you are doing it because it is working. Don't mess with success. Just keep it fun for both you and the dog.

The dog will mess up, somewhere along the line. Of that you may be sure. However, I would expect that the dog will only need a very mild negative correction...perhaps only a "BAD DOG" verbal admonishment and getting stood back up styled up and standing there at attention for two or three full minutes, after which it gets put at heel and then put away for an hour or so...to think about it.

RayG

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Me&Mackinaw » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:37 pm

Nope... Bill... I don’t think you misunderstood me. I guess, in reality, I don’t want to “break” him either.. just make him steady. First time doing this, so I’m concerned I’m going to miss something at a critical time of his life. Gordon... yes, he flushed and chased Grouse. No doubt about that. And yep... his first birds were chukars, between the ages of 4 and 6 months. After that I moved him on to training in the woods with whatever grouse we could muster in that nasty hot jungle of a northwoods, lol.I was proud of him during his first season which took place during his 10th through 12th month. I didn’t expect much but now I do as that has been what I’ve collected from the internet, the bar and the literature. He is a good boy, Ray, and I believe I got him here because I tried to pay attention to doing the right thing. Definitely appreciate the feedback.. I’ve been lurking for awhile and soaking it all in. I’ll keep doing what I’m doing. I guess it all sums up to me trusting him. I can definitely believe he’ll make mistakes and I’m good with that, he’s my good buddy. Just wanting to help him realize his potential.

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:02 pm

Me&Mac, the dog is the RESULT of his experiences. Therefore you need to surgically dissect what YOU are doing that might inadvertently contribute to the chasing.
If the dog has had the proper preliminary training - as you described - there may be too much of a transition to wild birds for your dog to understand. So-much-so, that he has not made the connection. Beyond that, dogs that are allowed to continue chasing pursuant to that indicator ("It is time for me to initiate being steadied.") might assume that chasing is how the game is supposed to be played. The resultant chase has becoming rewarding enough for your dog - even though it doesn't catch the birds.
You stated that you have had the dog on woodcock and grouse. I assume you did NOT bring a gun or guns along during these initial experiences? Again, folk seem to think that because they shot in the general direction of a bird but did not drop it, that the dog is not being rewarded. The answer is, "...wrong!"
Go back to basics, then provide your dog with hard flying birds that inure your fundamental training followed with a clear communication of what you expect from your dog in most any situation rather than an assumption. The strategy/plan must be transparently clear in your mind before it can ever be, in the dog's.
All of this should transpire before next season.
By-the-way, "breaking" a dog is a mis-used vernacular within the sport here that means getting consistency on finds/pointing. How you get there is a widespread term called "breaking". It need not be a reflection of the process or the spirit of the process. Perhaps it has just hung on from days gone by when this process was in it's developmental stages.

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Me&Mackinaw » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:08 pm

Thank you Featherfinder.. we appreciate the wisdom. Will definitely take it all into consideration as we whittle away at the next 7 months of training. Luckily, I feel we are still in a good place in our career to gain yardage. Probably the best time of life right now... training my buddy to help me do the things we love to do!

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by shags » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:56 pm

Your problem might be that you didn't let the dog not be steady. So he never got the opportunity to make a mistake, and for you to make a correction.

I'd try backing up to a challenging (to him ) point in training...maybe lightly dizzied pigeons or some good flying quail or chukars. Set them out and let the dog have at it, and see what he does. Keep quiet, no encouraging and no warnings, no making him maintain point ( whatever that means, sorry). If he busts, chase him down, scold, put him back on the spot, go through the flush/shot charade.

Repeat. Repeat.

There. Now he knows that chasing makes you unhappy, so must be against the rules.

When you next take him hunting, plan on letting him hunt, and you train. Hopefully you'll get a chance to make a correction as above.

Remember your dog is just barely past being a puppy. And as a setter, he probably isn't mentally mature and stable yet. so be patient. You have to undo what he thought was acceptable (chasing) and show him that pointing applies to groise and woodcock too.

Good luck to you.

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:53 am

M&M, further to this, as an intermediate or bridging step, I have taken birds into the grouse woods with me and set the dog up. In-other-words, it can be challenging trying to make the leap from training to actual hunting because you never know where a wild grouse or woodcock might be. By bringing birds into that same habitat, you can at least better anticipate a find and be better prepared to dovetail that fundamental training.
Wear cotton gloves when handling your birds. :wink:

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:54 am

M&M
I have never been a proponent of setting a dog up to fail so I can correct him. I prefer a conditioned response.
Some dogs can be very hard to stop from chasing. They seem to enjoy the chase more than anything else. I generally let them chase few planted birds and thrown pigeons
to get the idea in their head that they are not going to catch the bird. Then with launched birds, planted birds and wild birds I whoa him when the birds fly. He soon learns that a bird in the air means stop and if he don't we lose the bird. I have had dogs that I had to lean on quite hard to stop the chase but they were older and very well collar conditioned.
Be careful with a young soft dog it is very easy to give them the wrong message.................Cj

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by shags » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:22 pm

Setting them up to fail means (to me) that failure is the only option in that particular scenario. I like to set them up to be a le to make a correct decision or an incorrect decision. They make the correct choice, great. Incorrect choice, well, that's an opportunity to let them know they chose wrong. Nothing in the world wrong with correcting a dog's error.

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:57 pm

Exactly, Shags. Further-to-that, how some folk train/correct can be quite removed from others.
A conditioned response by definition is; "...an automatic response established by training to an ordinarily neutral stimulus" which is this case should be stopping and staying put on scent of a bird BEFORE it flushes.
I like to let the dog make choices so I don't set up for failure, per say. I set up for learning opportunities. In the scenario I suggested, you at least have some control over knowing where the birds are, again as an intermediary step.
As for the process I prefer, there is no place for an obedience command around birds at all, especially when I can't see the dog is on point. ???
The birds teach my dogs to hold, not "whoa" or any other obedience command.
If you have to "whoa" your dog AFTER it has performed the act of pointing, you need to revert back to fundamentals. That dog (that you need to "whoa" ) will never be reliable, at least not by my definition. It's not so bad for some when hunting but most assuredly it can be an issue while in a competitive environment. I used to LOVE hearing my bracemate's handler (in a trial or test) saying, "Whoa....whoa.......whoa.....WHOA! It's a bit like a building a house of cards on a windy day. You knew it would crash. You just didn't know exactly when.
Again, just how I do things and admittedly, it' not like most trainers.

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Me&Mackinaw » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:21 pm

Since I began this voyage last year... one of the things that I’ve found most ironic is that, more than not, folks say that whoa is the one of the most important commands to teach a pointing dog. Yet the same number, or more, say that whoa has no place around birds. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the whole deal. It’s possible since I’m a novice at best. The way that I studied it was that I taught the dog obedience tasks first... I raised coon hounds in the 90’s, and that was true with them as well. I didn’t have gundog forum back then. I had my old hillbilly uncle lol. Whoa was new to me though. When I researched what it meant... it meant stop in your tracks, at least that’s the way I understood it. The practicality behind it was that, later, when you were trying to steady the dog, you had a command and a routine that supported it. So, that’s what I did. Learn obedience first so you don’t get yourself killed or lost while hunting, then exposure to birds so you know what we’re doing out here, let him chase, get him birds, Etc. Hunt him first season, let real grouse teach him like I can’t, then in year 2 instead of obedience, which we’re already mastering... teach him manners... WHICH... took the command, “Whoa”. 2nd season, he remembers the 2nd year training lessons and knows I want him to hold tight. Should I have just expected that my dog was going to stop chasing on his own because after 500 grouse he finally knows he’s not ever going to catch them? I trust experienced men who love bird dogs but just can’t imagine sitting here for 3-4 seasons without a gun waiting for him to teach himself the rules.

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by shags » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:47 pm

I might be misunderstanding you, so forgive if I am. But it reads to me like your dog knows whoa means stop, and you've used whoa to stop him on birds. If so, then the dog might be relying on your command to stop, which you encouraged and reinforced. But the dog should have learned that bird scent is the "command" to stop.

So you're in a bit of a pickle and it's annoying but not the end of the world. Back up in training as several outlined above, but this time keep quiet and don't whoa the dog on birds. You can use a check cord to stop him if he tries to bust them w/o you telling him whoa.

Be patient, your dog is very young and and you have years ahead of you. A few weeks of training, even if it means losing a part of a season will be worth it in the long run. You sound mad at the dog, but if I've read your post right, the mistake is yours. But it's fixable, so don't be hard on yourself either.

Best of luck going forward.

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:10 am

shags wrote:I might be misunderstanding you, so forgive if I am. But it reads to me like your dog knows whoa means stop, and you've used whoa to stop him on birds. If so, then the dog might be relying on your command to stop, which you encouraged and reinforced. But the dog should have learned that bird scent is the "command" to stop.

So you're in a bit of a pickle and it's annoying but not the end of the world. Back up in training as several outlined above, but this time keep quiet and don't whoa the dog on birds. You can use a check cord to stop him if he tries to bust them w/o you telling him whoa.

Be patient, your dog is very young and and you have years ahead of you. A few weeks of training, even if it means losing a part of a season will be worth it in the long run. You sound mad at the dog, but if I've read your post right, the mistake is yours. But it's fixable, so don't be hard on yourself either.

Best of luck going forward.
Just so we all understand, I am not saying whoa your dog onto a point. I have not had many dogs that would not point and hold for the flush. I do look at the dog and caution him with a quiet "whoa" as I walk in to flush. I have done this on every Master dog I have trained and all dogs I hunt with. It is clearly within the hunt test rules and it reassures the dog. It also keeps his style because he knows what is coming, unless he was abused in whoa training.
If I read your post right the dog is either busting birds without pointing or establishing a point and not holding until you arrive. Either is unacceptable.
It seems to me the dog just needs a little more training so he understands bird scent means stop, a bird in the air means stop and whoa means stop.
You are right about one thing, some dogs like to chase birds so much that they will never stop chasing if you do not train them not to. They will not stop because they learn they can't catch the bird. They don't want to catch the bird, the fun is in the chase. This needs to be stopped in a training situation. You will never get the dog that loves the chase, steady on wild birds because you cannot control the situation. Throw pigeons let him chase a few to get him excited. Use a checkcord if you like and do what you have to make him understand he gets the bird by waiting for you. Be calm and quiet when he breaks, whoa him, set him back quietly, calmly pet him up and throw another bird. When he is standing for the flush shoot a few birds let him retrieve some and you retrieve some. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH USE WHOA AROUND BIRDS, if the dog is not intimidated by the whoa command.
When you set him back do not pick him up by the collar and the tail do not punish him or embarrass him. Watch for signs of to much pressure. Be Kind.
I think you have a very nice dog who is well on his way to being a good bird dog.......Cj

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:46 am

There is nothing wrong with saying "whoa" or anything else if you feel the need. I/my dogs don't need to hear anything. My dogs are intense, focused on the bird - no inclination to move unless released.
I used to chuckle at handlers I was braced with that used to blab when my dog was standing on point. Go ahead...have at 'er bud. Say, "alright", "fetch-ing dog", "let's go", "(I) get it", "break", "go ahead".....whatever. :lol:
A great deal of my field trial past goes into the high class dogs I like to produce today. I am blessed to have had those experiences and it would be a shame to shelve them.
Enough on that. Keep us posted Mags!

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by shags » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:34 pm

sometimes the whoa is more for an unsure handler than for the dog. We field trial and not cautioning shows absolute trust in your dog. That confidence can mean a placement or not, or in testing, A higher score.

As always YMMV.

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Re: Breaking my Setter...

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:15 pm

Shags, dead on...especially if you bring a short-tailed dog to a long-tailed trial, you need ever edge you can get. You are SPOT on regarding handling a dog on point. Was running a horseback AF trial once and a big part of my success was my confidence in a little Britt. As the judge rode up he spotted my bird running down a trail away from my dog. The dog obviously saw it too. I circled my dog, then started running up the trail behind the reticent quail. It finally flushed! I watched it fly away, shot my blank, then calmly turned and sacheted back to my still motionless dog (looking down at my holster as I put the gun away). Not a peep was said through-out the performance. Of course, she put together those other required dynamics too. We won 1st that day. :wink:
There are so many aspects of those trials experiences that permeate what I do today. The dogs are so much better for it because as you know Shags, just because your dog doesn't move on a find(s), doesn't mean you're going to win squat. That dog has to have what I call "Wow factor". Your dog should take the judges breath away on point or in the least, have them remember it's name.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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