English Setter Running Away - Help

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Goldcol
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English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Goldcol » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 pm

Hi there,

I am from the UK and English Setters are on the decline here so advice is scarce on the breed. My setter is a field type and I am not a hunter. He is 1 years old, amazing in the house and great outside on the long lead with recalling him with the whistle always being successful. He likes to retrieve and hunt for balls if I hide them and he loves the frisbee. My problem is he is besotted with birds and has insane drive but I am not hunting birds and would like to just have him off the lead and to come back to me off the lead. The problem I have is he bogs off and chases birds or picks up a scent and he is off ifni let him off the lead. My recall does not work in this scenario and he is off. I am unable to catch him and the 4 or 5 times he has gone, he is lucky other people have taken him in. All I want is to have a dog of the lead but I feel I have opted for a dog that is naturally unpredictable and wants to hunt. I appreciate I am asking for him to be a dog who stays close when we are on country walks and he wants to range out but have you got any advice on how I can keep this type of dog closer to me, more engaged with me when we are outside to ensure he comes back on the recall.

He is interested when we are playing games on walks but after 30mins he wants to engage with scents and birds. I am not sure how to use his bird instinct to stick with me.

I am almost at the point of thinking about an ecollar if not just for his safety and maybe enhance the training ?

Many thanks.
Col.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Sharon » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:10 pm

Definitely time for e collar training for that dog's safety.
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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Goldcol » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:28 pm

Typical, it's just been announced in England they are being banned, following Wales and Scotland. Any other ideas ?

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:54 pm

Hi Col. I'm pleased to see you took my advice and joined this forum. I , as you already know, am in favour of using an e-collar on this dog but you should get better advice on here than most folk in the U.K. could give you.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by polmaise » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:21 pm

Well you are going to get advice from your own side of the pond ! :lol:
And it Isn't the e-collar !! (That would be a correction tool) in this case where the dog would not perceive a learned behaviour ,just a correction , If ya just want to press a button and fry ! ? ..Sure it will stop. If the setting for a Setter is high enough ,and 'Trash breaking' is good for a 'Trash breaker' , but it sounds like this one isn't chasing anything , other than Not You .
You could use the 'Iggins' talk to the animals approach or the world famous 'Wonder lead' that always wonders me what happens when it isn't on ?.
It reminds me of a few years back with a Game keeper who had a notorious dog that just bogged off' as soon as they let the lead off the dog ?..
I had them in a field and said 'Take the lead off and tell him to go!"
But he will, the gamekeeper replied! .. ''Yea but at least you will have told him to , and that's a start I said :wink: ''
...
Probably not the answer you were looking for .
But it ain't gonna be fixed by doing what you do right now. Perhaps a change is in order .

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Steve007 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:30 pm

Goldcol wrote:\n. All I want is to have a dog of the lead but I feel I have opted for a dog that is naturally unpredictable and wants to hunt. I appreciate I am asking for him to be a dog who stays close when we are on country walks I seek any advice on how I can keep this type of dog closer to me, more engaged with me when we are outside to ensure he comes back on the recall.
How close do you want him to be, and what is the topography over which you walk , I.e. open country or heavy woods? And do you get distracted on walks? He's a year-old dog ; you've got to stay focused on him.

A long check cord on him all the time might work well for you. It's a good bridge between on and off lead, and an ideal step before an ecollar. You'll be clumsy with it initially, but you'll adjust quickly. Have treats and praise when he comes in in response to a command, even if you have correct him with the check cord to remind him. Stay focused on him! Go out without company initially or at least tell others you'll have to ignore them at times. You've got a young dog, and It's not a walk; it's training.

Maybe you've done this already. I realize you've got a long line on him around your neighborhood. Do you take it off on longer walks? If so, an ecollar is not your next step.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:42 pm

First let me say that a well bred setter that is one year old WILL want to go after birds. It is in their blood, it is in their bones...it is what they were born and bred to do for the last couple hundred years or so.

Soooo, you are going to have your hands full for a good bit of time...I suspect at least a year or so, until your youngster settles down. A one year old dog is really a very large puppy...in many ways. It is going to take some patience.

I recognize that you are not a hunter, but have you considered training the dog to point and hold game?

I say this because a well trained bird dog will seek feathered game and when it finds it, will point and hold that game until you get there. I think that such training might work to do two things. First it will get the dog to stand there, instead of running and chasing. A dog that is on point is a whole lot easier to catch.

Second, the training will intensify the bond of cooperation between you and your dog...because it will come to depend on you to flush and (if you choose) to fire a capgun at the flight of the bird. Firing a capgun is not necessary BTW. A pat on the dog's flank and a "good dog" is all the reward many dogs want or need.

Besides, a dog, especially a setter , on point... is a thing of rare beauty to behold. Why not make some magic for yourself and your dog? You may not understand...but when you see your dog standing there...high and tight...just waiting for you...you WILL.

As far as an e-collar is concerned, it can indeed be a valuable training tool and safety device. When it is used correctly, I consider it a long, invisible checkcord.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by shags » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:14 am

I've had field bred setters for 35 years or so, and I can tell you that your dog's behavior is normal. He is doing what his DNA demands. But you can modify the behavior.

My dogs usually start running at arond 4 months old, and begin to ignore a recall command ar 5-6 months. At that time I overlay a collar/checkcord correction with a low stim nick of the ecollar. This is done in the yard or other fenced, safe place. Then afield, I give *one* recall command, and if it is ignored, nick the pup. This is sometimes a surprise to them - Hey! How did she reach me way over here? But usually it only takes one or two corrections to correct the problem.

The pup wears the ecollar for another 6 months or so, even though it's barely used. This is an insurance, because pups will be pups. At around 12-15 months my pups are pretty much reliable, and I can leave the ecollar at home. With one or two boneheads, it took longer.

But there are caveats. First, I never ever have my dogs off leash in an unsafe area...near a road, in a neighborhood, etc. Second, I'm prepared to run them down if necessary. Third, in the area where they run, I am prepared ro let them go for a while, because they have to blow off that steam. Last, while they are young, I do not consistently call them in, then pack it up for the day. I might call them in, then release them repeating once or twice. This way, they don't get the idea that recalling = end of fun.

If I were you I would seriously consider Ray's advice above, and look for a gun dog trainer. You don't need to hunt, but your dog needs an outlet for his instincts. And who knows, maybe you will find you enjoy the process enough to consider some sort of competition. IMO it's unfair to suppress what nature put into the dog then try to mold the dog to another form. Square peg, round hole kind of thing. It will drive you both crazy and usually doesn't end well for the dog.

Best of luck to you.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:26 am

What wonderful support offered by Ray, Shags, et al.
I have to be honest Sir. I think it is sad that a dog that conveys this level of natural ability is in a home where it is not cultivated. He is only doing what it has taken many centuries of selective breeding to develop. Here, I often introduce owners to field tests, where non-hunting owners provide their field dogs with opportunities to bloom doing what their dogs enjoy SO much. Subsequently, the owners find it to be a lot of fun and rewarding, as well.
Your dog's non-recalling stems from a lack of base fundamental training. Even young field dogs need to understand the word "come". This is a word that I do not compromise. As such, I invest a great deal of early training into it while introducing a number of distractions in order to proof the dog.
At one year old - although still a pup - your dog has developed habits. One is knowing when to disobey coming back to you. You may have inadvertently taught him that. The reason I say this is because you have provided your dog with a choice - one you are not in a position to intervene upon. As such, you have taught him he does not need to obey when running loose.
If you are not inclined to "work" this dog, you need to revert to some fundamental recall training. At this juncture - because of the absence of the early training - you can expedite the process while ensuring the safety of your dog by over-laying an e-collar once the dog clearly understands the expectation. All the e-collar does - when used properly - is extend the long line to a virtually infinite length. Typically, it is much more gentle than a long line. To-this-end, if you are an abusive trainer you don't need an e-collar or even a lead/long line to be one.
No....the e-collar is not the ONLY fix. That said, you might consider finding a capable someone that uses an e-collar and that knows what they are doing.
One thing is for sure. With an e-collar used properly, you can expedite the process AND you will come home with your dog, EVERY time. Once you further inure your expectation of "come" you may not have to use it again. In fact it may be rare! Because I work my dogs in a wide variety of environs (strange/vicious free running dogs, coyotes, wolves, porcupines, dense virtually endless forest, skunks, major roadways, snakes, etc.) I believe an e-collar to be the cheapest insurance one can buy. If that makes me a bad person/trainer....so be it. I love my dogs too much NOT to have one on.....just in case.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:35 am

As I said before but on a British gundog forum ...... This sounds like a dog I would have liked to own back when I was still fairly fit. Col hasn't given as many details as he gave on the U.K. forum and I hope he doesn't mind me adding to what he has already told you.

As I understood things the dog is not just leaving the O.P. during walks, it is deliberately running to distant fields/places where it did find birds on previous walks. The dog has also escaped from the house and again went off to those places where it had found game previously ......obviously not a stupid dog ! To get to those places could put the dog and perhaps people in danger however ?

The O.P. has already tried a checkcord , it didn't work well once the dog discovered it's limitations. I think the O.P. has already been to a pro trainer too .....but not a pro-trainer of work bred pointing breeds ! The average British pro trainer of retrievers and spaniels often has not much of a clue about training /working a hard going pointing breed.
If any of that is incorrect then please correct me Col. ---- You will find that the more info you can give on the dog the more the folk on here will be able to help you ....or at least try to.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by setterpoint » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:37 am

the dog is a bird dog and doing what comes natural to him you are trying to go against his breeding .why not give the dog to a hunter that will let the dog do what it was breed to do and get you another dog that will do what you want a dog for. i know its hard to give your dog up but in the long run you and the dog will be happy. look at it thru the dogs eyes he wants to hunt and find birds thats what makes him happy. with that being said you can prob. get your dog to do what you want with enough training if you are bound to keep your dog i understand that to good luck

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Pedro » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:07 pm

E collar.

Why is it that so often e collar and FRY the dog are used synonymosly? For most part, only time my e collar is beyond level 2 is trash breaking. Find a good collar conditioning program and follow it.

In quail country my dogs are out of site much of the time, when I'm in SD they get the occasional "nick" just to let them know that's far enough. Takes them very little time to adapt.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by polmaise » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:07 pm

Goldcol wrote:Hi there,

I am from the UK and English Setters are on the decline here so advice is scarce on the breed. My setter is a field type and I am not a hunter. He is 1 years old, amazing in the house and great outside on the long lead with recalling him with the whistle always being successful. He likes to retrieve and hunt for balls if I hide them and he loves the frisbee. My problem is he is besotted with birds and has insane drive but I am not hunting birds and would like to just have him off the lead and to come back to me off the lead. The problem I have is he bogs off and chases birds or picks up a scent and he is off ifni let him off the lead. My recall does not work in this scenario and he is off. I am unable to catch him and the 4 or 5 times he has gone, he is lucky other people have taken him in. All I want is to have a dog of the lead but I feel I have opted for a dog that is naturally unpredictable and wants to hunt. I appreciate I am asking for him to be a dog who stays close when we are on country walks and he wants to range out but have you got any advice on how I can keep this type of dog closer to me, more engaged with me when we are outside to ensure he comes back on the recall.

He is interested when we are playing games on walks but after 30mins he wants to engage with scents and birds. I am not sure how to use his bird instinct to stick with me.

I am almost at the point of thinking about an ecollar if not just for his safety and maybe enhance the training ?

Many thanks.
Col.
As I understand the situation ,we have a Hunting breed with a Pet dog owner who want's to allow the dog with the freedom of off lead activity in an environment that the dog has had previous activity of finding game/and or scent of game when the owner nor' the dog has been prepared for this eventuality . Neither the dog nor' the owner has the skill set to rectify the 'fit' .
What's done is done ,but it can be fixed (there is a huge caveat to that however) . Even if the owner was to use the e-collar and after reading up on all the instructions that comes with the one he chooses ,it's still gonna have further complications along the process.
The long line just makes the dog walk to heel the length of the line ''For this pairing'' !
Suggestions fro experienced handlers of Hunting dogs or even this specific breed to use 'tactics' or programs or processes they would use Is 'Not' going 'fit' with this pairing (imo)
How long will it take to fix ? and what should the owner do to fix it ?
A long time and many ,many processes for the owner ,that an experienced Gun dog trainer would/could do in less time ,and show/ demonstrate the hunting prowess and grace of the specific breed in a hunting environment. I doubt very much the owner could do this even when it was trained by the Gun Dog trainer or would even want to .
You have what you have !
Now comes 'My advice' for 2 cents .And You ain't gonna like it .
'You have what you have' ! Accept it , You caused it ,You created it ,You allowed it ! It ain't the dogs fault ,It's Yours (and all those in the family circle who are involved with the dog)
'How do I fix it ?' ..The notion of getting this big hunk of a dog running about the heather in full stride like it's forefathers should be removed from your head as some sort of 'He needs to run Free,and be exercised crap' .
The dog (this dog) is not going to suddenly get decrepit or deformed bones or not form properly by Not running about like a lunatic for a few weeks !
If it's on a short lead and at heel walking next to Your obviously fit frame (with all the running you do) I'm sure You can manage a walk in those areas where the previous misdemeanours occurred and teach the dog to walk next to you !
This will take a few weeks and it will be real boring for both You and the dog ! ..Good !
When You have done this 'Really hard work' . Give me a call

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Steve007 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:35 pm

setterpoint wrote:the dog is a bird dog and doing what comes natural to him you are trying to go against his breeding .why not give the dog to a hunter that will let the dog do what it was breed to do and get you another dog that will do what you want a dog for. i know its hard to give your dog up but in the long run you and the dog will be happy. look at it thru the dogs eyes he wants to hunt and find birds thats what makes him happy. with that being said you can prob. get your dog to do what you want with enough training if you are bound to keep your dog i understand that to good luck
Actually,this is a pretty good idea which should be considered. I have no problem at all with a "breed split",so long as a person knows what he's getting. It seems the OP didn't. But you won't find a nicer, prettier kinder pet than a show-bred English Setter. It is true that they don't -- with, I presume, a very few exceptions -- hunt, but they'd be a much better match for this owner, and more easily trained to his requirements.

Worth considering for him, though explaining it to wife and kids is not a job I''d want. Still, he can probably get this dog to work out it he's dedicated enough. And if the dog doesn't get squashed on the highway meanwhile.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by fishvik » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:16 am

Polmaise +1 I do feel sorry for the dog though.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:41 am

Great question Pedro! Typically, THAT type of comment is an overt display that the source has no idea about the proper application of an e-collar.
This post brings to mind a question. How many non-working dog breeds are there today? (MANY, last time I looked.) Add to this, the designer breeds about to be presented to a market of buyers that need that "special distinct looking dog or color of dog". And yet, locally I am seeing a trend towards to the sales of bird dog breeds that baffles the mind! Of course the ensuing issues might be something like, "When we take our (insert bird dog breed) to the cottage he runs off and doesn't come back for hours!" Or, "When we let Poopsy out he keeps coming back with dead bunnies!" Or, "When we go for our marathon training, our (insert breed) is SO easily distracted by smells or birds/butterflies/frogs/bunnies, etc. Why won't he just run with us?"
More-often-than-not, my answer is, "If he didn't, I'd take him back to the breeder 'cause you'd have a dud!"
The best solution to this and related issues is doing your homework up front prior to the acquisition stage. This way you minimize the challenges.....normally.
Goldcol, I wish I was near-by to help you. Seek out a decent obedience trainer and they will address your recall issues. As for the range or pattern you wish to instill on this dog, you might seek out a local flushing dog (springer/cocker) expert. In this regard, they are very good at getting their dogs to work closely - at least closer than the inherent natural abilities of the typical setter, which your dog is currently displaying.
(I don't mean those over-sized, lopey gaited, dopey looking, Afghan coated, clueless.... I mean REAL setters.) I don't disagree with the two distinct types of setters (field & show). I just wish they'd call "them" something else - not setters, especially for the sake of the uninformed or duped buyer.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by polmaise » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:24 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Great question Pedro! Typically, THAT type of comment is an overt display that the source has no idea about the proper application of an e-collar.
Since the Collar conditioning and Training would appear to be overlaying known commands ,the dog (and owner) would at the very least be at the same stage .
Clearly they are Not .
Let me 'Insert' ...'Fry' /'Burn' / 'Roast' / 'Toast' .. or perhaps ? 'Apply pain' ?..Is THAT type of comment an overt display about proper application of an e-collar?
.....
Now before You or any other get your Tail feathers up , You go show me on video how You stop a Setter that is Full pelt across the county on Hunt without any Pre Training of any sorts (Like the poster has in this situation !)
Put Your self , In the Poster's shoes 8) ....

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by setterpoint » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:57 am

the dog will always want to range and hunt its in his blood yes you can control to a degree but it is going to be a proplem as soon as you let up on the dog he is going to range on you. i had a pointer that i grouse hunted with he was a good dog pointed birds but at 60 i couldnt keep up yes i could make him come back but i had to control the dog all the time to the point it was not fun for me or the dog now he is in texas running on quail better for the dog mayby if i was a better trainer i could have fix the dog to suiet me like i said i couldnt enjoy hunting i had to keep constant att, on the dog and i bet thats going to be this way for the op and this dog

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:30 am

setterpoint wrote:the dog will always want to range and hunt its in his blood yes you can control to a degree but it is going to be a proplem as soon as you let up on the dog he is going to range on you. i had a pointer that i grouse hunted with he was a good dog pointed birds but at 60 i couldnt keep up yes i could make him come back but i had to control the dog all the time to the point it was not fun for me or the dog now he is in texas running on quail better for the dog mayby if i was a better trainer i could have fix the dog to suiet me like i said i couldnt enjoy hunting i had to keep constant att, on the dog and i bet thats going to be this way for the op and this dog
I am betting you are right. We can change the dog but probably not the person. And that is Ok.
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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Goldcol » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:33 pm

Thank you very much for your responses, I was not expecting this. Apologies for me slow response I was away on business and wanted to provide you with a comprehensive reply so you may be able to provide more accurate advice.

How I ended up with this dog:

The MD of the business I work for has an English Setter (show type) and I met it in a pub about 5 years ago and I felt an instant bond with the dog and thought one day I would have one. Now to be honest I was not a experienced dog owner as at the time I had a Lhasa Apso, which is just a lap dog, easy to train and reliable. Unfortunately my Lhasa passed away in September 2016. Now I was not planning on getting a dog right away as I wanted my children to come to terms with losing the dog and not just replacing him with another dog, especially in today’s world this is an important lesson. Roll on the New Year and I bumped into the MD who was leaving work and I asked where are you off too and he replied, to pick up an English Setter Puppy for the wife for Valentine’s Day. I could not believe it as these are really rare in England and there were two still available from the litter. I literally spent a week thinking about it, spoke to the MD to get his thoughts and took the plunge. The feedback I got from the MD was obviously around the show type and whilst I knew it was the Llewelyn type I was naive in what was required to train this dog. The MD is having an absolute nightmare with his and mine is an angel compared to his.

If I knew what I know now I would not get one and look for something easier to train off the lead but there is no way I can let this dog go as my kids and wife would be very upset. I am a very determined person and I have been to puppy classes and trained the dog daily and read numerous books on Gun Dog Training and have applied these principles.

My dog can
Walk to heal without pulling
Crawl, lie down, paw, sit, rollover and do all these things in the presence of birds and distractions
I built up retrieving with a tennis ball from puppy and he gets really excited about that and retrieving

Roll on 10 months old.

My wife took the dog over to a field near our house and he bolted and she could not get him back, she said the lead unclipped and he bolted. Eventually got him back
My wife also opened the front door and he bolted – luckily he was taken in
At this time, I was still running with him off the lead and he was staying by my side
Now at Christmas he was getting on for 1 year old and it all went wrong, I took him to the golf club, big open space and he bolted straight away and I lost him for 2 hours. I was gutted so then I decided stupidly to take us on our regular run a week later as he has never left me side and guess what he bolted again and I ended up finding him on the field he first bolted, lots of birds there.
I obviously needed to go back to basics, I went back to the long line and incorporated more retrieving, longer walks and using the long line in the country side (not pounding the pavements) I did this consistently for a couple of months every day, to the point the dog is obsessed with Frisbee and balls, turns quickly on the recall whistle and comes in for hotdog and cheese. I incorporated training from a gun dog trainer who suggested tossing balls and getting him to sniff for them on the ground which he was doing. Now I was so confident and so was the trainer so she suggested trying him of the lead. As a test I took him to a controlled area of land, which had 6 foot fence all round, huge area. He stayed with me enjoyed the retrieve and come back when called every time. I then let of him of the lead the next week and 30 minutes in everything was fine. I stopped playing with him he walked forward probably 20 meters or so and I thought this is it…… and he just went, I don’t know what set it off but my recall did not work and the speed he went was a different speed to when he is retrieving. I was impossible to catch him do to his relentless pace. Again he was taken in and we were lucky.

I have gone back to the long line again and I am working on more engagement so he is constantly looking for my next command and I am making him work for food. I can have my dog sit on a long line and stay and I walk away about 500 meters ( I cannot see him) peep my whistle and he comes back constantly. I have upped the ante with his recall food and I am constantly mixing things up with retrieving balls, frisbees, recalls, sits, downs etc. Trying to keep everything fresh. He seems less and less interested in the birds but as soon as he picks up noisy birds or a strong scent he is in his own world and forgets to look at me for his next command. It appears to me if I took the lead off and he was in that scenario he would probably still go.

I spoke to the gun dog trainer who wants me to come to obedience classes in her hanger but I feel this is a waste of time as I have an obedient dog but outside it can become challenging with beds when he gets in the zone. Like a previous poster said, I have to keep my attention on him and not let him get aroused. This is not very relaxing.

At the moment, I feel like the ecollar is not an option, they are being banned anyway in England and I am not sure it will work with this dog unless I cranked it up when he is in that zone and I don’t really want to do that. I am looking for training advice really and I was going to keep him on the long line until he is 2 years old in Jan 2019. Gives me the time to keep practicing what I am doing and incorporate any suggestions on this forum. Anything else you think I can add to my training to help, please let me know.

The problem is there is no specific trainers where I live and they all spin me the obedience line, surely if my dog walks to heal and on a long line , sits, stays at longs distances to the point I can can’t see him in open high distraction areas this is obedience. I have also added the leave it command over the last 3 weeks. I can through frisbee and when he is in mid sprint, shout leave it and he comes back to me, I then give him a high value reward, make him sit, wait for eye contact and send him out to get the retrieve.

As I said in hindsight I should of done even more research and my MD did say he has never let any of his setters of the lead as they are unreliable. There is lot of info online with people having challenges but I don’t want to give up, I see it as a challenge. I just thought It would be doable but maybe me not being a hunter I am trying to get the dog to do something that’s against his nature and trying to get the dog to fit what I want is not working.

The other thing I was thinking was to try and take him out for 30mins and when he comes slightly disengaged with the retrieve, take him home. Hopefully he may work this out over time and then I can build up the duration we are out. I am just trying to think outside of the box.

Hope this info helps and any suggestions will be appreciated as I would like to have this dog off the lead by Jan 2019, that’s the goal anyhow.


Thanks
Col.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by AkBrian » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:34 am

Maybe mentioned already, if so sorry for the repeat. If OP has no interest in hunting or testing and no thought of rehoming the dog to a more suitable home environment then why not (trash) break the pup off birds ? There are many dogs that have an aversion to birds due to heavy handed training along with poor timing on corrections , it can be done accidentally so it can be done on purpose. Not my first choice by any means, to ruin what sounds like a pup with all the intended instincts to become a great hunting partner, but running off on a regular basis will only lead to an injured (or worse) dog in the future. Recall training also needs to be completed.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Goldcol » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:24 am

Trash my dog of birds, what does this mean?

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:06 am

Goldcol wrote: The problem is there is no specific trainers where I live and they all spin me the obedience line, surely if my dog walks to heal and on a long line , sits, stays at longs distances to the point I can can’t see him in open high distraction areas this is obedience.
Col.
No Specific Trainers to what ...
An owner(s) who don't want to do x,y,z
Often the issue' as in this case is not where you start . The running off by the dog is a result of the cause.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:56 am

Goldcol wrote:Trash my dog of birds, what does this mean?
It means to make a bird an aversive to a dog ...... I think ? That is sometimes done accidentally by gundog trainers .....often done by correcting a dog in the presence of game . The correction could be something physical like a slap or a hard jerk on a checkcord or a jolt from an e-collar......just as I explained to you when making sheep an aversive to a dog.

I congratulate you for the time and the work you have obviously put into this dog already but it is not working . My opinion is that you should bite the bullet and use something you have not already tried .....the e-collar used as an aversive.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by shags » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:08 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Goldcol wrote:Trash my dog of birds, what does this mean?
It means to make a bird an aversive to a dog ...... I think ? That is sometimes done accidentally by gundog trainers .....often done by correcting a dog in the presence of game . The correction could be something physical like a slap or a hard jerk on a checkcord or a jolt from an e-collar......just as I explained to you when making sheep an aversive to a dog.

I congratulate you for the time and the work you have obviously put into this dog already but it is not working . My opinion is that you should bite the bullet and use something you have not already tried .....the e-collar used as an aversive.

Bill T.
Sorry Bill.

NO NO NO. That is completely unfair to the poor dog. The problem is *not* that the dog wants to find birds. The problem is that the dog is disobedient to a recall command. The OP needs to fix the real problem, several suggestions in posts above.

Look, I have had the same problem with puppies and little birds called killdeers. IDK if you guys have them there, but they are a kind of plover that runs, flies low and swoops around, and will lead a dog far far away. They ground nest in fields around here, and are plentiful. Puppies love to chase them. We also have Canada geese, which are great fun for puppies to chase. And meadowlarks. And turkey cultures. And hawks.

We can't trash break for every kind of bird that's chaseable. The dog would be a nut case from all that. Instead, we teach a reliable recall. Problem solved.

OP, take the dog to an obedience class and learn to teach him to come when you call him. Don't allow him off leash until he's proofed, unless you have a good safe (fenced) area to do so. Until then keep him leashed and exercise him by very brisk walking or even better, running. Or try bicycling with the dog running leashed alongside you.

Best of luck to you. With some training and maturity your dog will settle down.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Goldcol » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:43 am

Went to obedience class this morning and have four sessions. He was the best in class by far. He recalls all time even when birds are around. I think people are misunderstanding the issue. One I take the lead off, if he picks up a scent or gets in that zone he can go and he knows the lead is off and I can't catch him. This is my problem,any suggestions on this. This is why Bill suggested the ecollar as I would have control if he decided to do this and then he may realise he can't run away and do have the control with the lead off.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Goldcol » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:48 am

I have started putting the short line back on when he loses interest in me, the retrieving. Once he engages with me and the frisbee, balls again i put the long lead back on. I think he is learning to keep engaged but I have only just started this. Also working on the leave it command when throwing his retrieve, which he is getting good at. I don't want to overdo this and ruin his current drive to retrirve.

I am trying all I know. Any other techniques worth a shot?

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by shags » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:55 am

Goldcol,

When you believe your dog is very reliable on the recall in a controlled environment, you can overlay the ecollar. This means give the command, and an almost simultaneous tug on the long lead and a slight nick of the collar. Use the lowest setting that the dog responds to...you must read the dog...look for a little head twitch, ear twitch, lick of chops. You don't want to make the dog yelp or display other big reactions. A nick means a momentary push on the button, as opposed to a continuous stimulation ( 7 seconds or so).

I overlay in an area with distractions to give the dog an opportunity to ignore my command. It doesn't do to nick when the dog complies IMO. He needs to learn that if he ignores you, you can reach out and correct him with your magic invisible long line.

Then remove the long line and use the collar at the low nick if/when the dog ignores your recall command. Do this in your safe, controlled area. Command once, if dog ignores, nick. If he ignores the nick you may have to turn the collar up a notch.

You should see that the dog recalls with the nick just as he would with a tug of the long line. When he is reliable in your safe area, move on out to other places. IME sometimes moving the stim up a notch is necessary when the dog is really distracted. When he complies, praise the heck out of him, and continue on. Be aware and don't wait until the dog is really rolling to recall...when you see he's getting ready to take off, is the time. If after one or two attempts things aren't working oit, go in for the day and return to your more controlled place for more training. I prefer to quit while I'm ahead i stead of spending more time nagging and nicking.

IME your dog is at an age where he is getting full of himself, made worse because it wasn't nipped when it first began. But it isn't hopeless, you just need to work on it.

If your obedience instructor is experienced and successful with using an ecollar, ask him/her for instruction. There are other methods of using it to train recall, I descibed how I do it, but other ways can give good results also. YouTube has videos.

In the meantime keep your dog safe by not allowing him to run free unless you are in a safe place where no harm will come to him. So not in an unfenced neighborhood park or the like.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by AkBrian » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:00 am

I wish you luck with your pup, sounds like a very nice dog with potential to be a great companion. My suggestion to trash break your pup off birds was something to consider after you have completed recall training and have nearly complete confidence in him. That confidence is necessary , no option in this regard, you have to be sure your pup will come back to you when called under any circumstances (more so if there is a distraction that he is focused on). I should have put my emphasis on that point. However remember recall will always be a choice for a dog, even the best trained will balk if they fall to temptation. Instilling an aversion to what tempts him most can help ''if'' it is needed, again get him coming when called first, then see what you have.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:16 pm

shags wrote:Goldcol

If your obedience instructor is experienced and successful with using an ecollar, ask him/her for instruction.


Unfortunately few obedience trainers or gundog trainers in Britain have much experience of good e- collar usage. "E-collar" is a dirty word on this side of the pond and even where it is still legal to use one , like in England so far, you would be hard pushed to find one single pro gundog trainer who will admit to even owning one !

I am capable of doing aversive training with the collar but that is all my own one has ever been used for. I originally joined this forum to learn more about good e-collar usage but although I did learn a bit more I still do not feel confident enough to use one for anything other than straightforward aversion training......... I like to see things done in person a few times before I attempt them where anything electrical or "techy" is concerned. I have never met anyone who is less techy than I am ! :roll:

Anyway , I joined this forum for info on e-collar use but I stayed on it because I like the forum.

Goldcol wrote:
Trash my dog of birds, what does this mean?
[end quote

Hi Shags .....no need to apologise to me for my misunderstanding of this.....when I'm wrong - I'm wrong ! :lol:

Bill T.
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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Goldcol » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:12 pm

Thanks Shag. Your suggestions seem logical and easy to understand. Maybe I should crack on with the ecollar training before they become obsolete in England just to get ahead now.

He is dong really well, I think your ecollar suggestions will really help in providing him with that gentle reminder I am in control. I honestly think a few sessions and he would get the message and I could drop it.

Bill, totally agree. The obedience trainer pretty much told me one would help but that she could not advocate this being a trainer. Crazy really.

One question my mrs works at home Monday and Friday and lets him run around in the garden, the issue is he is running around after birds in the sky, she sometimes has issues getting him in but manages. However I can recall him every time but I am not sure whether th control his time in the garden and not let him do it. The thing is from your posts I understand he will always be interested in birds and as long as he comes back I can let it be? Next step the great country outdoors....

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:22 pm

I think you should use lot's of Cookies and cuddles then the dog would want to be with you all the time .

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by shags » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:24 pm

Your dog is young and full of energy, that's why he's chasing birds in the garden. Better that than other outlets, like eating your sofa or your wife's best shoes.. In time, he'll (probably) settle down. A young sporting dog most likely isn't going to slowly wander around and smell the roses, like some fat old dog.

That he obeys you but not your wife isn't an uncommon problem. She can work at it - maybe take the dog to some obedience classes, or practice at home by making him 'sit' or 'wait' for his dinner etc. Something that she can teach him is 'Leave it' which will pull him off those birds and also come in handy when he gets interested in things he shouldn't.

If I were you I'd look for a gundog trainer and take advantage of the dog's drive. It would be a great outlet for all that energy and helps to contain the crazy. A trainer could help with all the other obedience problems too, and might have the grounds to let him safely run. IDK how it is over there, but here there are trainers that will work one on one with owners, a lesson at a time.

Be patient and go with the process. If you are lucky, the day will come when you wish the dog who drove you mad years ago, would be able to play like that again, just one more time.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:35 pm

shags wrote: If I were you I'd look for a gundog trainer and take advantage of the dog's drive. It would be a great outlet for all that energy and helps to contain the crazy.
With all due respect . This is the Least bit of advice I would give to the OP.
The location environment availability combined with lifestyle and or experience is way out of 'fit' for the OP or family members for a Gun Dog trainer to have success with the owners or dog .
How about this for 'Outside the box' thinking ? Put the dog in kennels for a month and send the OP and the family to a trainer who has fully trained Gun dogs ....like 'Setters' ? ...

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Goldcol » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:32 pm

My fault today and the dog got away from me and was running in another field but guess what he come back to whistle. First time ever when he's in that zone. I used s louder whistme rather than the acme so maybe that helped. Obviously him going in the first place was not great but I don't understand now that excitement,running at full pelt sets him off so I need to watch out for that.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by polmaise » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:58 pm

I'm sure you will succeed successfully................
Great advice you have been given so far .

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:53 pm

I appreciate that e-collars are poo-pooed across the pond. That rule has not bedraggled us....yet. But it's coming. As is often the case these days, the ignorant are making the rules for those that actually understand.
You need to do exactly a Shags has taken his time to share. OVERLAY the e-collar. It might take me 48-72 hours to resolve your concern Sir. Your dog would be better for it and just as happy. Most importantly, he would return home with you at the end of the day.
I'll go out on a limb. Do not do so, and we will - if you were to share - read about your dog's demise, disappearance or rehoming.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Steve007 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:27 pm

How far away is your dog when he takes off and does respond to you? If it's relatively close, try two long lines --one much lighter than the other-- and quite clearly and enthusiastically disattach the heavier one. Set him up (if you can), signal him to return and dump him fast when he doesn't. Depends on his range when he takes off, but if he's close, you'll get results. Wear gloves with thin line or step on it.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by isonychia » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:44 pm

You know, in the US, when talk goes around about potential bans... people just buy the &*^% out of whatever it is. I'm not saying you should break the law or anything, but an e-collar has saved my dog's life a number of times, ignorance based laws and consumption of habitat will be the downfall of humanity, certainly hunting.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:40 am

Sad but true isonychia.
Polmaise, you make a good point. At no point in the OP's initial post does he say he attempted or invested in basic training. If you re-read my earlier post, I use the words, "fundamental training" ...actually twice, for good reason.
So, here we go yet again. This dog is in need of basic obedience training. This dog particularly, should recall among other things BEFORE it is set free to roam the country-side where it can get lost, injured as well as learning to disregard the OP. That is where I would start.

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Re: English Setter Running Away - Help

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:08 pm

I know one thing !
You can tell someone how to swim,and you can show someone how You swim,you can even draw diagrams on how someone should swim,you can write books on how someone swims . sell DVD'S on swimmers and Champions at swimming .
.......
Sooner rather than later , the Swimmer has to get wet and learn to swim in the water .
http://www.polmaisegundogs.co.uk/blog/d ... -doesnt-do

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