Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post Reply
Mike da Carpenter
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:55 am
Location: SE Michigan

Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Mike da Carpenter » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:10 am

I’m sure most have done this once (hopefully not twice). As an 8 week old GSP, our Levi had learned “Sit” by word and also hand signal after a week of training. Well, he is now 4 months (17 weeks) it has been reinforced for two+ months and I’m now in the process of teaching Whoa. He also has learned “Stay” by word and hand signal.

I built him a whoa board, lay it on the ground and get him to stand on it. I say whoa as I get him styled up, stroke his tail and it will last 2-5 seconds at most. Then he is off into puppy land. I’ll set him back on his board, slide a hand between his legs, get him styled up and repeat the process. I do this 3-4 times max then put the board away. Also when in the home, The word “Sit” has been outlawed and all 4 of us are adhearing to that. When I take him outside, it was customary to sit and wait to be told to go. Now once he sits, I once again, slide a hand under him and between his legs and get him in the whoa position. He is VERY food driven and I use Cheerios to get his attention, but he creeps badly waanting the Treat, and constantly wants to sit. I know, bad planning on my part, but wanting to work through it.

This past weekend, we took him to a GSP fun hunt to meet other people with GSP’s and see what I can do to improve the overall bird dog experience. Everyone there is very impressed with his biddibility, and temperament. His recall (on hand signal) at 100 yards is without fail, rarely pulls when on lead, BUT as everyone mentioned “he sure does love to sit”. After speaking with most the people there, that is where the Whoa Board suggestion came from.

My questions to you all...Am I doing everything right to try and break his Sit? Is there anything else I can do to help this along, or is it just a drawn out process of repetition and hopefully building upon it? I’m not looking for any magic tricks, just solid advice on what has worked for you in the past to get a dog to stop sitting and Whoaing instead. Does it sound as though I’m headed in the right direction? Should I be using the word “Stay” when I say “Whoa”, since his accociation with Stay is adhered too, then slowly transition away from Stay and just use Whoa?

Also I plan to pick up some quail (6) this weekend to set out for him to hopefully get taught some lessons by the birds (1/2 Saturday and the other 1/2 Sunday). This was another suggestion from a few of the GSP people we met up with.

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:40 am

As I am not too familiar with the American way of training pointing dogs I can say only this. I think you are trying to do too much too soon. "Sit" has become your pups default position.

I probably do more sit training with pointing pups than most Americans do but the sit still does not become a default position , my dogs do not sit when they point.

If a pup starts to think it can escape "pressure" by sitting then do not add to that pressure by "styling" a young puppy. A pup may think of styling as a correction even if it is done very gently and may then assume the default position .....it may sit.

I'd be a bit careful if I used a check-cord on that sort of pup while it is beginning to find and point birds. The use of a checkcord could trigger a sit on point.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am

My views on "sit" are different than most on here but, I was raised by wolves so I view things a bit different. I think you may be rushing things a little and expecting a bit too much from such a young dog. From your post it seems likely that your training is "click and treat" training. Nothing wrong with that but it will need to be phased out.
There is nothing wrong with teaching "sit" at an early age, as long as he sits on command and not just to get a treat. If you can train him to sit on command you can train him not to sit on the "whoa" also. Don't let him sit unless you tell him to sit. I don't do a formal, absolute whoa until the dog is older, usually close to a year old. They do have a pretty good idea what whoa means from kennel and food discipline. Watch very carefully for signs of "sit" becoming his default position to avoid pressure. Remember it is not what you view as pressure, but what he does.They might not be the same
Also be careful with the quail. If you are just introducing birds he will probably catch some unless they are good flyers. One or two won't hurt but with more than that you will be well on your way to a conditioned response. If you are planning to introduce him to the gun proceed with caution. Have somebody shoot from far off to start. This is a critical time for your puppy and about the only way to cause real issues on a well bred puppy.
Of course I realize you may have all this covered, If so you did good..........Cj

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:50 am

Mike -

You may not need this, but if you are having issues with the dog sitting as a default to pressure, this is another way to work through it. What I am suggesting is a heel/whoa drill after the manner of Paul Long. The beauty of the drill is that any and all pressure that gets applied is completely within the control of the dog. All you do is hold the checkcord. If the dog is where it is supposed to be, doing what it is supposed to do...there is no pressure, no discomfort. If the dog chooses to be somewhere else...it creates its own pressure. It is amazing how quickly they figure that out.

I do the drill silently. The dog cues off my movements and my knee.

Basically you loop a checkcord around the dog's neck, so that it will tighten as the dog pulls and is loose when the dog is at heel. I find a Smith wonder lead works better than the looped checkcord and others use a "buddy" stick device, but the concept is still the same. Essentially you start the dog, standing at your side, with the loop around the dog'sneck...high up, right behind the ears. The loop is "just" there on the neck, no pressure, but not loose or sloppy when the dog's head is right there by your knee.

Then you step off and walk about ten steps. If the dog surges ahead...the loop closes and pressure is applied. If the dog lags behind...the loop closes. If the dog veers right or left...the loop closes. After about ten steps you stop. The dog should stop right with you, but if it does not...you know what happens. This is the whoa portion of the drill.

If your dog wants to sit when you stop(as I suspect it might)... be ready and just as it is preparing to set its butt down...step off again. You might even, if the dog is tougher minded, give a little pop with the check cord. This will force the dog to abandon the sit.

A few of these should convince the youngster that sitting during this drill is a bad idea.

FWIW, I start these drills on a puppy as young as 16 wks. Very short sessions, very light pressure, lots of play in between.

Just another way to get from here to there, if you need it.

RayG

Mike da Carpenter
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:55 am
Location: SE Michigan

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Mike da Carpenter » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:42 am

This is exactly the type of replies I have come to respect from this site. Thank you all. And No, I do not plan to do any shooting. Just let the birds fly away. I gave up drinking, smoking and chasing women and it’s amazing the amount of money I save to spend on my GSP “vice”. I plan to drop him off this August for some formal training, but would like an awesome housedog so that my wife is happy. After that, I plan to build the best bird dog that I can, within my limits.

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by shags » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:44 am

Mike da Carpenter wrote:Also I plan to pick up some quail (6) this weekend to set out for him to hopefully get taught some lessons by the birds (1/2 Saturday and the other 1/2 Sunday). This was another suggestion from a few of the GSP people we met up with.
Think this through before you do it. Playing with pen raised birds as a8-9 week old puppy is way different from messing with them as a pup going into adolescence. What do think a pen raised quail is going to teach your pup? That it's easy to catch? That it's easy to run them down?

Be careful, have a very clear idea of what you're setting up, how and why.


To be clear, I don't think that it's the end of the world if a pup catches a bird, but it's not something I'd do on purpose, and certainly not giving it 6 chances. Pen raised birds in general are tame, not super wary, and not great flyers, and not good at teaching pups anything useful.

Pedro
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:11 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Pedro » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:49 am

You don't need pen raised birds right now. You need to take him on some fun puppy runs, out in the woods and fields. Let him point butterflies, chase tweety birds, you know... PUPPY stuff.

setterpoint
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:10 pm
Location: jellico tn

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by setterpoint » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:17 am

ray give you good advise use the whoa/heel when you see the dog is going to try and sit say heel and start walking then whoa watch the dog if he trys to sit say heel and repeat. if your dog has learned sitting gets him out of pressure he will try and use that evertime you ask something he dont want to do.. just work thru it dont get mad and do something that will make it worse you dont have to beat the dog up. its not the dog to blame your at fault keep it fun and just make him do it. but i agree the whoa/heel is your best option. jusy my thoughts

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Sharon » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:56 pm

Interesting read from many experts. Not too early for birds imo, but many wait until 6 months. I wouldn't be using quail either. Too easy to catch. Can you find some hard flying pigeons anywhere? If you can , search on here for " dizzying pigeons".

PS Check out the "Birds and Bird Supplies" category here. Might be someone near you.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by polmaise » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:34 pm

It's 17 weeks old !
How is it with belly rubs ?
Following you through the foliage and cover is an adventure all on it's own.

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:57 pm

Ditto -- I completely agree.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by DonF » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:14 pm

It's a puppy. I would not put out pen raised quail, chuker or anything else. To easy for it to learn it can catch all the birds. Take it for walks where there are lot's of "bleep" birds and let it chase all it wants! I'v only ever had one dog that never would point a "bleep" bird but she'd chase them clean out of the country. Turned into a gret dog. Slow down and let the pup be a pup. I've seen people get pup's started very young and they think they really have a class dog,,,until it shed it's puppy skin and become's an adult. Then what it's learned is out the window because the adult is sure you are wrong! Seen a lot of people do what your are doing and they had a great pup that turned into a bull headed dog. Forget whoa now, just basic obedience and let it have fun chasing "bleep" birds. Go ahead and use sit, it's not gonna hurt a thing. The term sit and whoa sound a lot different, no big thing.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

Mike da Carpenter
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:55 am
Location: SE Michigan

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Mike da Carpenter » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:46 pm

Sounds like reasonable advice. Looked into it and the quail are to young, and I agree that so is the pup. He’s my first pointer, that’s why I’m seeking advice. It’s a whole different world than Labradors. I’d much rather ask the questions than learn lessons the hard way.

I know he is still a puppy, and he has us all wrapped around his paws. Just want to make sure I do things correct. The boys and I just got back from letting him chase robins in the soccer field, and then an almost 2 mile walk through an old abandoned farm field and woods. Seeing as the woodcock are migrating back through, I was hopeful one of the 4 of us would have kicked one up, but there were none to be had. The boys have never seen/heard one in the wild. It’s good for all of us to get out and enjoy the fresh air.
2F287D3F-DF89-43FF-A57F-7BDB0882F242.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Pedro
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:11 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Pedro » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:09 am

You're going to get a lot of different advice, filter what works for you and your dog.

That dog is on the way to having a great life. Good looking boys and dog.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:20 pm

Pedro wrote:You're going to get a lot of different advice, filter what works for you and your dog.

That dog is on the way to having a great life. Good looking boys and dog.
Right on. Your future is bright as long as you can keep the light at the end of the tunnel lit.

Ezy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:29 pm

Pedro wrote:You're going to get a lot of different advice, filter what works for you and your dog.
A common quote often seen . Sounds good in text ,and comes across with high moral value .
...
Here is the thing ? What does the Novice know what to filter out until they try it ? ...The bad bits First ,or the good bit's ?
What's the bad bit's and what's the good bit's for this pair>?

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:44 pm

polmaise wrote:
Pedro wrote:You're going to get a lot of different advice, filter what works for you and your dog.
A common quote often seen . Sounds good in text ,and comes across with high moral value .
...
Here is the thing ? What does the Novice know what to filter out until they try it ? ...The bad bits First ,or the good bit's ?
What's the bad bit's and what's the good bit's for this pair>?
Very good point!! My suggestion is to go with what seems to make sense.

I have been involved with pointers for quite a while now. I like field trial bred specimens, because that is what I like to do with them. I actually do not even show my pups a bird until they are about 6 months old...and only then to make sure they have a nose that works.

I have found that the pointers I like to mess with come out of the birth canal with more desire to find birds than I can harness. They also have all the "point" I can use. They are bird hunting machines. They absolutely do not need to be "fired up". If anything , they need the opposite...to learn to be calm and responsive to their handler. That is the way pointers are bred.

FWIW, I do a whole lot of yardwork with my pointers before they see birds. I will run them in birdless fields to get a handle on them and the yardwork is geared toward getting them to come when called(the first time) and to heel and whoa pretty much flawlessly in the yard which is an indication of their attention to me and my movements.

If you do your yardwork correctly, it is not unreasonable to expect the dog to point and hold the first bird it encounters in the field. Some do. Some it takes two or three or four encounters...but if you do the boring, repetitive yardwork preparations, it will happen and you will be all smiles, because your dog is doing what it was bred for and doing it for YOU.



RayG

User avatar
greg jacobs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 am
Location: selah washington

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by greg jacobs » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:28 pm

First I have far less experience than those that have responded. When you only train a dog every 5 or 10 years, you just don't see enough dogs to not make new mistakes with each dog. That being said I don't teach sit till later on because of the problems it can cause. I also error on the side of not enough early obedience vs to much. You can take something out of a dog by to much obedience early on. Waiting till a pup is really into birds before to much obedience helps not taking out of a pointing breed what you really want left in. I keep it positive for the first few months then transition. You need to have some brakes and steering before you hit the gas to hard, just be careful. At four months old you mainly want a happy puppy.

KahlessDg
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:52 am

Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by KahlessDg » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:02 am

Mike da Carpenter wrote:I’m sure most have done this once (hopefully not twice). As an 8 week old GSP, our Levi had learned “Sit” by word and also hand signal after a week of training. Well, he is now 4 months (17 weeks) it has been reinforced for two+ months and I’m now in the process of teaching Whoa. He also has learned “Stay” by word and hand signal.

I built him a whoa board, lay it on the ground and get him to stand on it. I say whoa as I get him styled up, stroke his tail and it will last 2-5 seconds at most. Then he is off into puppy land. I’ll set him back on his board, slide a hand between his legs, get him styled up and repeat the process. I do this 3-4 times max then put the board away. Also when in the home, The word “Sit” has been outlawed and all 4 of us are adhearing to that. When I take him outside, it was customary to sit and wait to be told to go. Now once he sits, I once again, slide a hand under him and between his legs and get him in the whoa position. He is VERY food driven and I use Cheerios to get his attention, but he creeps badly waanting the Treat, and constantly wants to sit. I know, bad planning on my part, but wanting to work through it.

This past weekend, we took him to a GSP fun hunt to meet other people with GSP’s and see what I can do to improve the overall bird dog experience. Everyone there is very impressed with his biddibility, and temperament. His recall (on hand signal) at 100 yards is without fail, rarely pulls when on lead, BUT as everyone mentioned “he sure does love to sit”. After speaking with most the people there, that is where the Whoa Board suggestion came from.

My questions to you all...Am I doing everything right to try and break his Sit? Is there anything else I can do to help this along, or is it just a drawn out process of repetition and hopefully building upon it? I’m not looking for any magic tricks, just solid advice on what has worked for you in the past to get a dog to stop sitting and Whoaing instead. Does it sound as though I’m headed in the right direction? Should I be using the word “Stay” when I say “Whoa”, since his accociation with Stay is adhered too, then slowly transition away from Stay and just use Whoa?

Also I plan to pick up some quail (6) this weekend to set out for him to hopefully get taught some lessons by the birds (1/2 Saturday and the other 1/2 Sunday). This was another suggestion from a few of the GSP people we met up with.
I had taught my pup sit before I decided to do hunt training when was 4 months old. Once I was advised againt "sit" I just stopped using it and ignoring him if he sat for something. If he sat during training, I would reposition him to stand or down, whichever was appropriate. After about two months he rarely sat unless it was for comfort.

As to the stay, the advice I received was to continue with the words he knows. I know guys who use the weirdest words for commands. The only confusion this has caused is when someone helps me train and they used the traditional commands, which are different than mine. I just have to let them know what my dog's command is for that particular action. For instance, my dog does not understand the word "fetch", he knows "gedit" because that is what I would say when we used to play fetch.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:48 am

Mike, you have a great starting point - young sons to enjoy the journey with, and a pointing dog. God bless....
Too often, we try to impose training onto our pups rather than read them. More-often-than-not, unless you have many years around dogs and can read them well, we chart a course that is chock-a-block with challenges, hurdles, confrontation, misconceptions and most importantly an unclear expectation on your pup's part. We take this position, because we are superior beings. Surely we know their responsibilities better than our dogs do...or do we? Here is something to consider: I may have a lower IQ than you but my many years at a specific task brings with it job-specific savvy. I am probably better at MY job than you. Does that translate into me being smarter than you? Obviously not.
Bird dogs have a wonderful handle on those things that make them bird dogs. Centuries of experience translated through selective breeding contributes to dogs that may have a limited vocabulary but they are VERY good at their speciality such as, smelling/finding birds, pointing birds, retrieving birds, being good companions, etc. When you think about it, their repertoire is pretty limited so it shouldn't be that hard to elicit those natural ability traits that would serve us so well afield.
Many challenges for pup source from us. It can stem from our many and varied perceptions of what a bird dog should do followed by how we are going to make him learn that. Mike, all-too-often, we are the ones that need to spend more time watching, learning, and being a part of pup's development rather than JAMMING our conflicting, misguided aspirations into an otherwise very capable specialist.
Watch and SEE. Think (like a dog) and LEARN. Find ways to travel the journey towards a capable bird dog rather than putting your gloves on for the fight (which can leave bruises/scars on your dog). You might be surprised at what your dog will convey. You might be surprised at what YOU can learn. I have been doing this a long time. Every now and then, a dog teaches me something new or reminds me of lessons past.

Jetrain
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:05 pm

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by Jetrain » Sat May 05, 2018 1:52 pm

It might help you to get The Burnt Creek Method of Dog Training by Jim Marti. The books are back in print. bcsetterpress.com is the website.

averageguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am

Re: Whoa training after learning sit...@$&#%!!!!!!

Post by averageguy » Sat May 05, 2018 3:08 pm

Mike, Couple of thoughts. I agree with the advise to stay clear of the pen raised birds. They are the anti-training of a bird dog at the age of your puppy. Strong flying homing pigeons controlled in launchers will be a much better way to go when the time comes.

Teaching Sit early and it yielding a tendency for the puppy to sit when teaching Whoa.

Yea I have been through it numerous times with my GWP puppies. Not a big deal at all. Why do I teach Sit early on? Because the first season to open and the first bird we hunt is Doves. Which is followed by Teal. I need my puppies to sit beside me, mark and retrieve birds. So I teach Sit.

I also Teach Whoa although I never use it around birds until after my puppy's first hunting season and then I use it for Steadiness training. I do not use Whoa to teach a puppy to point. I use strong flying homing pigeons in launchers set in natural cover and work the puppy in silence to bring out its natural pointing instinct.

I teach Whoa to young puppies on my FF training table first. Just stack the puppy up and then take my hands away. Put him back when he wiggles, which of course they will. When I get a moment of the correct behavior I click and treat. Then lengthen the time required in order for the puppy to get the marker and treat. Then I move to taking a step backwards ... Eventually I have the puppy standing reliably on the table while I walk around and then back to release and praise them. Then I move to the ground. I use the whoa while walking at heel, going through doors requiring the puppy to wait until released. From there I will move on to introducing my Whoa whistle and then to stopping the dog while moving at a short distance, then ecollar overlay ...

When they sit on a Whoa command, I just walk back and stand them up. No big deal - They learn the difference between sit and whoa just fine and stop sitting after some repetitions. I do not treat the need to stand the dog up from sitting as a correction and I say nothing harsh to the dog, I just calmly stand the dog back up and they learn the difference between Sit and Whoa command.

As I said the way I hunt my puppies I need the sit before I need the whoa and so have been through this several times.

This is not at all a difficult issue and perhaps you have already trained your way through it.

Post Reply