WPG First Bird Exposure

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SaskStallion
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WPG First Bird Exposure

Post by SaskStallion » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:03 am

Hi All.
I've got a WPG who's a little over 8 months old, and am looking for some advice.
This pas weekend, we attended his first NAVHDA session, and there were live pigeons to train with.
Since it was his first live bird experience, we slowly introduced him to a live bird to see, smell and learn what they're all about.
He was very interested in this, and we moved to the "magic brushpile" scenario.
We brought him within about 10 yards of the brushpile, and the pigeon was launched, followed by a cap gun going off (training was indoors due to our rather extended winter in Alberta).
He did well with everything, and held a "whoa" until the helper brought the liver bird to his mouth.
When he got the pigeon in his mouth and we started to walk, he crunched down on the bird and killed it.
We did the drill a second time, but rather than putting the live pigeon in his mouth, we switched it out for a dead one. He seemed to mouth it a little less, but was still rolling and biting it on the way back.

This being said, does it look like we have a serious issue, or is this a result of lack-of-experience at this stage?
I haven't been FF training yet, but might want to start this right away, if this will cure his hard mouth.

Any advice on this would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

setterpoint
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Re: WPG First Bird Exposure

Post by setterpoint » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:04 am

force fetch you have to put some pressure on the dog i would wait your dog is still young not that it cant be done but i would teach the other commands first whoa,backing.heel,holding point ,hunt in range,you can play fetch with the dog all im saying is f f would be the last thing i would teach. thats just my op.

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DonF
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Re: WPG First Bird Exposure

Post by DonF » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:24 am

Force is one way to go. I'd try a frozen bird at this point. Thaw it enough to thaw the feathers, about 20 min, then use it.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

averageguy
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Re: WPG First Bird Exposure

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:35 am

I use and recommend the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVDs.

I do not like using check cords or whoa commands in a young dogs first encounters with birds. I never whoa a dog into a point, especially a young dog. Whoa comes after the pup's first hunting season when we are training steady to WSF.

I work my puppies on birds in silence and let them interact with the birds. Once I have properly introduced birds and launchers, I use the launchers in natural cover to teach the pup to point and hold its point or the bird flies away. Once the pup is holding its point and I have properly introduced gunfire elsewhere, I move to launching and shooting the bird. All done in silence with little inference from me and in natural cover. I am building a positive association with searching for, pointing and holding a point and getting a bird in the mouth.

I used the Perfect Retrieve DVD methods to FF my current pup. It includes some good footage, discussion and methods on mouthing problems including hard mouth. I think watching it would give you some good insights before you proceed further.

Best of luck with your pup.

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Featherfinder
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Re: WPG First Bird Exposure

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:01 am

Andre205th, I have utmost respect for Mr. Higgins and his innovative methods for extracting those natural traits inherent in quality bird dogs. I believe the foundation of his philosophies stem from his experience in falconry, where you don't MAKE the falcon do what you want, you nurture their natural instinctive talents, then teach them that you can help them achieve their goals together (which also happen to be your goals!).
Perhaps Mr. Higgins can offer a suggestion as he is the author of the MBP.
Because not all dogs are created equal, I try to avoid risky situations so that I don't have to work on resolving issues. As such, in my observation of the MBP video, you will see a live pigeon being returned to the dog and trainer/handler. With some young dogs, you can do that. With other dogs, you can end up with a situation.
I had a gent that brought me his hard-mouthed GSP. I resolved the issue, demonstrated the results, then he took the dog home. Near the end of the hunting season, he called me to say the dog returned to his old hard-mouth ways!?!
I resolved the issue and returned to dog to him. At the end of that season.....well you guessed it....hard mouth yet again!
He and I ended up hunting partners on a wild bird hunt. He went through a PILE of shells from his semi-auto. Many of his efforts following his dog's covey finds sounded like this, "Boomboomboom...aaah shite!" On a couple of occasions, he VAPORIZED birds! On many he either missed or most often, the dog had to track a cripple. Whenever this dog finally located that cripple, he learned to dispatch it so it wouldn't escape him again.
Voila! There you have it. A problem relearned by this dog every hunting season!
Might I suggest that when you try the MBP with your particular dog, ensure the pigeon you use is DEAD. I would also use a bird harness initially to overcome what this dog has learned to date. That is where I would start and observe.
By-the-way, the fix for my hunting friend was that I asked him to put only 1 shell in his semi. He simply couldn't bring himself to do that but he met me 1/2 way and used only 2. Guess what? He focused better, was more patient, and made the shots count. He was much improved!
Mr. Higgins may have more utile info on this. He is a super knowledgeable and sincerely helpful gentleman.

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isonychia
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Re: WPG First Bird Exposure

Post by isonychia » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:42 am

I don't think you should draw too many conclusions from a first bird experience other than that you should be excited he is into the birds. I expect my dogs to catch and if they have to, kill cripples in order to bring them back to me. Crushing a live bird, not sure I would really mind, especially if he was soft with the dead one. Just keep exposing him, you wont be force fetching for at least another year anyways.

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DonF
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Re: WPG First Bird Exposure

Post by DonF » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:08 am

Just realized something. What is the purpose of putting a live bird in a pup's mouth. Not surprising it would munch on it. After all, it is a pup!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

Bowling's Ragnar
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Re: WPG First Bird Exposure

Post by Bowling's Ragnar » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:16 pm

I am just catching up on this blog, but I have a couple WPG boys.
One guy is little over two and the other is 9 months. Both just hung out chasing quail and pheasant all winter.
I have done no formal training on these guys, but The older guy gets it. He had four or five perfect runs. Stop on scent, hard point, steady to shot and retrieve to hand. I only shot maybe a dozen over him this past season. So he was 100% on point, not 100% on steady to shot, and about 50% return to hand. NO ACTUAL TRAINING. I am silent in the field, only a whistle when he goes a direction I don’t want, or into an area that may be dangerous. Then of course loads of praise when he does it right. When he didn’t return to hand, no praise, no treat. I have no idea if I am doing this right, but I was happy with his performance, especially toward the end of the season. He really took off and made huge leaps in ability. I am by no means looking for a master hunter or anything like that, just some dogs to walk behind and enjoy.

The little guy had his first quail at about 5 months old, let him tear it and kill it. Since then no bird other than decoy in his mouth. He will get his mouth on a quail this season, but never another live bird (as long as I shoot well, lol)
Training on water retrieve and tracking for NA test with him all summer.

The big guy loves to retrieve from water and almost always brings decoy back to hand. Again, same training, no treat or praise, but loads of praise when done right.

I say all this because I have no plans to force fetch, I only plan on these dudes chasing birds and doing what they are bred to do. I put them on as many as I can all season long. Of course in VA, they are all farm raised. I just started on pigeons with them this spring. Basically to keep that hard point on them and teach steady. Immediate trap release on point with the young guy and then the second the older one moves I release the trap. They have never been on check cords, never been on e collar, nothing but about 20 to 30 birds every week all season and loads of positive behavior reinforcement. Lot’s of prey drive reinforcement, chasing flushed birds everywhere. Most of the time I just walk around the farm letting my guys smell, point, hold point while I kick up and then chase all the birds that were missed by all the people out there shooting at quail with 12 gauge duck cannons, every now and then shooting one out of the sky for them with my single shot break action 20. LOL

Again, no clue if I am doing it right. My philosophy is let the dog be what he is meant to be and try not to get in their way and screw them up.

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