Setter Steadying

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northwoodshunter
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Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Thu May 17, 2018 12:01 am

My setter is now 3 years old. He has had many birds shot over him in North Dakota, few shot over him here at home as the grouse numbers are down around here and there’s more woodcock found here than grouse lately. I’ve decided that with all the natural ability he had for me to be able to start his training at 15 years old(now 18) and him being as good of a bird dog as he is with how much I knew and my inexperience, that he could be a good trial dog for the trials around here. Head trials are grouse, and the birds don’t get shot. He needs to be steady to shot, broke in backing/honoring and some more whoa breaking as he’s not fully broke in field for that. He doesn’t retrieve birds still and that doesn’t bother me. I am planning on either breeding him next spring and keeping a pup or possibly buying another pup (either another English setter, an Irish, or an English pointer) and I feel it would be good for the dog to trial as I believe he could do very well and will help with studing him out for a pup. I will most likely be sending him to a trainer in July or August and would like him as close to whoa broke and steady as I can get him so the trainer can do more with him to finish him. Any tips on this would be great or any advice.
Thanks

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by gundogguy » Thu May 17, 2018 3:51 am

northwoodshunter wrote:My setter is now 3 years old. He has had many birds shot over him in North Dakota, few shot over him here at home as the grouse numbers are down around here and there’s more woodcock found here than grouse lately. I’ve decided that with all the natural ability he had for me to be able to start his training at 15 years old(now 18) and him being as good of a bird dog as he is with how much I knew and my inexperience, that he could be a good trial dog for the trials around here. Head trials are grouse, and the birds don’t get shot. He needs to be steady to shot, broke in backing/honoring and some more whoa breaking as he’s not fully broke in field for that. He doesn’t retrieve birds still and that doesn’t bother me. I am planning on either breeding him next spring and keeping a pup or possibly buying another pup (either another English setter, an Irish, or an English pointer) and I feel it would be good for the dog to trial as I believe he could do very well and will help with studing him out for a pup. I will most likely be sending him to a trainer in July or August and would like him as close to whoa broke and steady as I can get him so the trainer can do more with him to finish him. Any tips on this would be great or any advice.
Thanks
I assume the trial venue is cover dog trials. At 3 yrs of age it seems like a lot of cleaning up on manners, what with steadying and backing. Why such a late start on these basic behaviors? As well as that perpetual dream of male dog owners wanting to breed their big boy for a pup. I would be curious as to how this works out for you and the dog.
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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by shags » Thu May 17, 2018 4:55 am

Good for you that your dog has shown potential and that you're pleased with him. Sounds like you've brought him along pretty well.

The trial season is winding down now, but maybe you can find one or two to attend. Go and watch, see what is required of trial dogs. That will give you an idea of whether your dog has what it takes to be competitive. Trials are not only about being steady; dogs need to be 'the whole package' to win. That includes ground application, manners, style, and more. If the trainer you have in mind trains for trials, ask him where to find a trial, and to evaluate your dog. Keep in mind that all great hunting dogs don't make great trial dogs; you will need to be very clear eyed and analytical when you compare your dog to the ones you see in competition. Your dog must fit the trial mold; what is required by trials will not change to acommodate your dog.

Lately on this board there have been a couple of threads about guys wanting to 'stud out' their dogs. Look them up and think about it. When winning, proven dogs with big reputations are plentiful, it's not so easy to find a breeder who will go to a 'no name' stud. IMO it's disingenuous to expect a breeder to put his female at risk, to potentially incur all sorts of veterinary expenses, to go through the work and stress of raising a litter, and to market puppies , just for a stud dog owner to have the fun of picking a puppy. Maybe you have a hunting buddy with a good female, who knows and likes your dog. That might be a possibility for you. It might be possible that some unkown fella with a female might be thinking of having a litter in order to make a little cash, and would consider a stud puppy a cheap fee. But do you really want your name or your dog's name associated with something like that?

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by Featherfinder » Thu May 17, 2018 6:50 am

What an amazing response Shags!! Smack on the money!
As an aside to Shags accurate comprehensive counsel, you could get a respected trialer to give you his opinion of your dog's ability as a viable competitor. Sometimes, we see our personal dogs through rose-colored glasses. Your cursory interest in breeding said dog might support my comment.
You may find it interesting - if you attend some cover trials as Shags suggested - at the independence these grouse dogs hunt at. Typically, a gun dog owner would NOT be happy with this. Even cover trial dogs ROCK!
Finally, taking a 3 year old dog that has had "many grouse shot over him" and now asking him to be steadied up is going to take a VERY good trainer. I'm not sure you will get the reliability you require to be competitive either. If the process in any way compromises your dog's style on point, you won't be winnning much anyway, even if he is steady. I say this because at 3 years old, your dog WILL show stress at the changes imposed on him even at just 3 years of age. He may get over it....
My recommendation is that you spend the $$$ in getting your current setter retrieve trained so that you have something polished here-and-now, as far as a gun dog.
I also suggest you look long and hard at a puppy prospect with credentials from cover trials. Take that pup (and his enviable pedigree) and cultivate his natural ability, couple it with your new-found understanding of cover trials, and go for it!
It's FAR easier turning a retired trial dog into a gun dog than going the opposite way.

northwoodshunter
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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am

Thanks for the responses, and he is from very good cover dog trial bloodlines and has lots of winners and his parents both did very well in these trials(sire is 2xch dam is a ru ch). The trainer I would bring him to knows the owner of the dam and sire of my dog and I have talked to both and I’m not wanting to trial just for being able to get a pup from him, I’m wanting to because I do personally feel he has what it takes to do it. And if the trainer told me he doesn’t know if he can then it is what it is and he will still only be my gundog. When we’ve shot pheasants over him in North Dakota there were a decent amount of times that he would stay on point until he saw the bird fall(I couldn’t tell you if it was natural or if he just did it cause he couldn’t see or something) but then he would go to the bird or continue hunting instead of retrieving. I talked to the guy that owned his dam and he said he personally thinks it’s do-able and I do too. When I talk to the trainer and him I know what it is I would be getting to and if he doesn’t have what it takes to trial then he’d still be more steady then he was before and be an even better overall hunter for the season. The trainer has trained and trials trial dogs. I know these dogs are very solid and even if he doesn’t win and could be somewhat competitive I would be happy, heck even if he doesn’t have what it takes I would be happy. I’m fine with him just being a gundog but I would like to be able to trial him if I could. I enjoy watching him work and hunt more than I like shooting the birds. If I didn’t have him I couldn’t give you a 50% guarantee that I’d even go on our North Dakota pheasant trip every year. I do agree that I need to make sure the trainer is clear with me and I am clear with my self if he is a prospect for this and could handle it.

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Thu May 17, 2018 8:27 am

I also understand the concern in the stud part, but I would not be breeding him for the heck of it and the fun of picking a puppy. I would be breeding him if I find another female with good bloodlines and if my dog does end up being able to do trials, winning or not, or if one of my buddies that I know their dog is good and I like their female and they like my dog like you said. But I’m not just looking to breed him just to do it. I would have no problem buying another puppy next spring(EP,ES,IS,or Brit) or breeding him later in life when he’s like 5 or 6. This is all if it is possible and is in the dog’s and my best interest in terms of breeding and trialing or not trialing.

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by cjhills » Thu May 17, 2018 8:49 am

The big benefit of a pro trainer will be a much better hunting partner even if you never trial him. You definitely can teach an old dog new tricks........Cj

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by bustingcover » Thu May 17, 2018 9:34 am

Are you looking for suggestions on a trainer? 3 years old is not too old your dog is just now finishing its derby year and ready to be broke out. As long as there aren’t any terrible habits to undo I think you’ll be very happy with where your dog is by th end of the summer if left with a trainer. The only place it may be behind as far as trialing goes is the pattern and style thatpeople like to see from their trial dogs vs hunting.
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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Thu May 17, 2018 9:43 am

I have the trainers narrowed down, I’m more looking for what to do with him to get him as far as I can to steady from now till he goes in July? What birds to buy? How to run him on the planted birds with what equipment and what to instill to him?

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by bustingcover » Thu May 17, 2018 9:48 am

Just pigeons. Get him on a platform or barrel and have him wishing while tossing pigeons. Then have him woahing on the ground. Then get him doing it reliably with distance. On the ground you can toss your hat, pigeons, etc to distract him.

Also I’d recommend calling the trainer you want to work with and explaining where the dog is at. Then asking them what they suggest you do before the dog gets there.
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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Thu May 17, 2018 10:43 am

Thank you for the advice, as you said I had talked to the trainer and the first hung he asked after explaining himself was where my dog is. He said especially work on whoaing him so he’s as broke in that as he can be so he doesn’t need to do much and can focus on steadying. He said to use pigeons and not quail and get a launcher if I can and just try that stuff for steadying. Figured I’d ask here to see what other things would be recommended for starting this off.

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by shags » Thu May 17, 2018 11:40 am

It's a smart move to take your dog to a trainer who knows trial dogs, if you want to trial your dog.

There are different ways of steadying. One trainer I used would put the dog on a cc and and let him run around a field. When the dog came near, the trainer would toss a pigeon and step on the cc if the dog didn't stop. The point was that a bird in the air meant stop on a dime. Another of my trainers hated the pigeon tossing thing, and used launchers. The guy who is working my young dog now uses the pigeon toss with the dog on a barrel, moving the dog to the ground when he's ready.

Look at some youtubes and see if you can find a method that suits you. There isn't a one-size-fits-all training method. It has to suit your personality and the dog's. The Smith Silent Command System works, as does Perfect Start, and Training With Mo. There are others also.

IMO whoa breaking is over rated. If you have to whoa your dog in a trial, you're probably out of the ribbons for that day anyhow. It can come in handy, no doubt, so isn't a total waste of time by any means. But the only time I've whoaed a dog in a trial was after he busted a dang bird, to get him to stop before he further disgraced himself with the chase.

Call your trainer and see if you can spend a few hours with him, watching him work dogs. Then you can get a feel for what he wants from a dog and how he gets it. That will help you to work your dog before he's off to BirdDog U. over summer semester. It will make things easier for all concerned if the commands and handling all pretty much match.

About the breeding thing, go over to the coverdog site and read the thread about American Field and DNA. Some successful breeders and trialers made some comments there that may give you some insight.

Here ya go http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/ ... 49803.html

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by JONOV » Thu May 17, 2018 1:04 pm

gundogguy wrote:
northwoodshunter wrote:My setter is now 3 years old. He has had many birds shot over him in North Dakota, few shot over him here at home as the grouse numbers are down around here and there’s more woodcock found here than grouse lately. I’ve decided that with all the natural ability he had for me to be able to start his training at 15 years old(now 18) and him being as good of a bird dog as he is with how much I knew and my inexperience, that he could be a good trial dog for the trials around here. Head trials are grouse, and the birds don’t get shot. He needs to be steady to shot, broke in backing/honoring and some more whoa breaking as he’s not fully broke in field for that. He doesn’t retrieve birds still and that doesn’t bother me. I am planning on either breeding him next spring and keeping a pup or possibly buying another pup (either another English setter, an Irish, or an English pointer) and I feel it would be good for the dog to trial as I believe he could do very well and will help with studing him out for a pup. I will most likely be sending him to a trainer in July or August and would like him as close to whoa broke and steady as I can get him so the trainer can do more with him to finish him. Any tips on this would be great or any advice.
Thanks
I assume the trial venue is cover dog trials. At 3 yrs of age it seems like a lot of cleaning up on manners, what with steadying and backing. Why such a late start on these basic behaviors? As well as that perpetual dream of male dog owners wanting to breed their big boy for a pup. I would be curious as to how this works out for you and the dog.
They aren't "basic behaviors." Steady to wing, shot and fall is requisite for a trial dog, but one that's steady to shot and well in control is all 99% of hunters care about. It sounds like his dog has done what he's needed it to, and now he wants to take it to the next level. A great hunting dog and a Field Trial competitor are like a Corvette and an GT race Car...Similar, but one has a lot tighter tolerances.

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by DonF » Fri May 18, 2018 9:52 am

northwoodshunter wrote:My setter is now 3 years old. He has had many birds shot over him in North Dakota, few shot over him here at home as the grouse numbers are down around here and there’s more woodcock found here than grouse lately. I’ve decided that with all the natural ability he had for me to be able to start his training at 15 years old(now 18) and him being as good of a bird dog as he is with how much I knew and my inexperience, that he could be a good trial dog for the trials around here. Head trials are grouse, and the birds don’t get shot. He needs to be steady to shot, broke in backing/honoring and some more whoa breaking as he’s not fully broke in field for that. He doesn’t retrieve birds still and that doesn’t bother me. I am planning on either breeding him next spring and keeping a pup or possibly buying another pup (either another English setter, an Irish, or an English pointer) and I feel it would be good for the dog to trial as I believe he could do very well and will help with studing him out for a pup. I will most likely be sending him to a trainer in July or August and would like him as close to whoa broke and steady as I can get him so the trainer can do more with him to finish him. Any tips on this would be great or any advice.
Thanks
Has to be a mistake! You have an 18 year old dog your hunting? And you didn't start his training till he was 15 years old? Amazing! :-)

I didn't like to get pup's under a year. Owner ask's what to do that first year, teach it to come when it's called. Keep it away from any birds that are not wild. Wild birds, let it chase till it drops!
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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by DonF » Fri May 18, 2018 10:01 am

I might add that a huge mistake with owners is they often think they are training one thing but actually training another. The thing about the pup being allowed to catch game birds that doesn't fly does not bring out prey drive. It teach's the pup it can catch a bird on the ground. Very important rule when training, pay attention to what your training! If you have a pup from good line's even if they are backyard bred, instinct will come out. Gertie on here has a really nice setter, the dog's name is Gertie. I first met her here when Gertie was about 4 mo old, she showed no interest in birds at all. About a month later we tried her on birds again and you could see her wake up. My Stormy was 11 mos before he had any interest in birds, but when he got it going, he really got it going. Point is, don't worry about prey drive, it's there just hasn't surfaced yet maybe!
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northwoodshunter
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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Fri May 18, 2018 11:06 am

Hi DonF, he has plenty of bird drive and he goes for birds and points them and he has been hunted over, I’m just needing to get him as far as I can in terms of steadying him before he gets to the trainer and doing as much as I can with him before he gets to the trainer. He is 3years old now and I am 18 and don’t know enough about training to fully steady and break him myself and am at the point where like said earlier, he has been doing everything needed and wanted and I’m just looking to get him to the next level, which would be steadied and field trialing and if he isn’t cut out for trialing it is what it is and he will just be a great and even better hunting dog than he was and I’ll just use him as a gundog and watch him work in the woods and field that aren’t trials. I was looking for advice on things to do before he goes and what birds to use for training until then.

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by Sharon » Fri May 18, 2018 2:55 pm

Hats off to some one 18 giving training a go! So few young people involved in dog training. You've had some good advice Northwoodshunter and hopefully more . Enjoy your dog. :)
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northwoodshunter
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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Fri May 18, 2018 7:39 pm

Thanks Sharon, and I’ve gotten a lot of advice from you over the years I’ve posted questions on here! Being able to ask on here and the owner of my dogs dam keeping in touch all helps very much. I’ve enjoyed training him and will hopefully be bringing in a new pup this summer or next spring and will train the next one on my own till this point but will be able to even better with how much more I know now

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Re: Setter Steadying

Post by DonF » Mon May 21, 2018 10:42 am

Sharon wrote:Hats off to some one 18 giving training a go! So few young people involved in dog training. You've had some good advice Northwoodshunter and hopefully more . Enjoy your dog. :)
He's 18? I thought he was talking about his dog! Really messed me up thinking he was training an 18 yr old dog that he started at 15! :D
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