using pen raised quail

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BuckeyeSteve
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using pen raised quail

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:09 am

In the article "Pen Raised Quail for Training Bird Dogs", Frank Thompson says when using call-back pen birds, "never plant them".

http://www.fieldtrialpointers.net/penraised.html

My total experience with birds so far is 4 chukar that I bought, lost two trying to get them out of the box to plant, then planted one that we never found by the time I got back with the dog, then planted one in a small patch of cover in the middle of an open field that I never took my eyes off of and still never found it....so I'm as green as they come to this. I now have 100 quail I'm getting ready to move from my brooder to a flight pen. I planned on installing a callback cone. My question (or at least the first one) is 'why not plant them'? And what is my other option? Other than planting the quail, how do I get them out to train with.

I also have a pigeon trap out and expect (hope) to have my first pigeons prior to the quail being ready to use. If I'm successful trapping pigeons, I'll probably use some that will be one use birds, but eventually will get a pigeon house built and leave them long enough to re-home.

My Brittany is 6 months - his total exposure to birds is letting him sniff at one of the chukar before planting it, letting him play with a dead grouse that a friend donated (I just let him run around with it and have fun, then picked it up and re-froze it before he got chewy).

Any advice on how to approach my two bird options above would be appreciated.

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Re: using pen raised quail

Post by cjhills » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:13 am

I trained probably 5 master dogs on planted quail. if you get a solid whoa it works fine. These were all dogs that were bred for a natural point. You don't want to whoa them into a point but to caution them after they establish a point. ...….Cj

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BuckeyeSteve
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Re: using pen raised quail

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:28 am

So his point is that it's bad for the dog or bad for the birds to plant call-back quail?

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DonF
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Re: using pen raised quail

Post by DonF » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:05 am

If I had a couple hundred acre's to train on, I'd consider farm raise quail. But there would be at least a couple Johnny house's out. I found out here that you leave them out, don't get into a pen with them they go from pathetic to very very good. Most people don't have that much property. So I have fooled with quail and chukar and in my circumstances, pigeons are the bird of choice. If you don't have the room and johnny house's, you will probably have uncooperative birds that don't fly well. Last year I was throwing around another idea using a sort of house for them. Small shelter under a brush pile surrounded by 2'x4' wire. Though is that you raise them in that house then at the right time simply open it up and let them come and go as the please. I would think that they would get pretty wild like that. Still might do it. I did have a few in a brush pile here that did come back to eat and drink and boy did they get spooky. But the problem is land to do it on.
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Re: using pen raised quail

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:15 am

BuckeyeSteve wrote:In the article "Pen Raised Quail for Training Bird Dogs", Frank Thompson says when using call-back pen birds, "never plant them".

http://www.fieldtrialpointers.net/penraised.html

My total experience with birds so far is 4 chukar that I bought, lost two trying to get them out of the box to plant, then planted one that we never found by the time I got back with the dog, then planted one in a small patch of cover in the middle of an open field that I never took my eyes off of and still never found it....so I'm as green as they come to this. I now have 100 quail I'm getting ready to move from my brooder to a flight pen. I planned on installing a callback cone. My question (or at least the first one) is 'why not plant them'? And what is my other option? Other than planting the quail, how do I get them out to train with.

I also have a pigeon trap out and expect (hope) to have my first pigeons prior to the quail being ready to use. If I'm successful trapping pigeons, I'll probably use some that will be one use birds, but eventually will get a pigeon house built and leave them long enough to re-home.

My Brittany is 6 months - his total exposure to birds is letting him sniff at one of the chukar before planting it, letting him play with a dead grouse that a friend donated (I just let him run around with it and have fun, then picked it up and re-froze it before he got chewy).

Any advice on how to approach my two bird options above would be appreciated.
Steve -

First off, the reason for the advice to never "plant" a quail is to avoid the possibility of the dog catching a planted bird. It is no big deal for a ten week old puppy catching a bird, but it can be a VERY bad thing for a six month old dog to catch a bird. It usually is a major step backward in the dog's training and definitely not something that an inexperienced trainer will want to deal with.

My advice to you, considering where you and your dog are right now...is to purchase a remote launcher. I would put the launcher out in a field where you can let the dog roam a bit. Pay very close attention to the direction of the wind and locate the trap exactly...with a ribbon or some other landmark. You need to know precisely where the trap is and precisely where the scent cone is.

Locate the launcher, if you can...somewhere close to a fencepost or tree=, as you may wish to tie the dog off to prevent chase.

After letting the bird sit in the trap for 20 min. or so, to allow the scent to develop, bring the dog in, both perpendicular to and downwind of the trap. The dog should be on a 20 ft. checkcord. I prefer to let the dog drag the cord, but you may want to actively handle your pup. I can't tell you which would be right without seeing the dog.

Anyhow, bring the dog in, as I said...perpendicular to and downwind of the trap and scent cone. As the dog gets close, get hold of the checkcord and have it loosely in hand. The INSTANT the dog signals that it scents the bird...pop the trap and get hold of the checkcord, either in your hand, or by stepping on it. You want the dog to stop on first scent and prevent chase.

If you do this the first several times... the dog will come to understand that if it stops at first scent and stands there when the bird flies off... it is all good. Eventually, you will be able to trust the dog without the checkcord and then you can dispense with the launcher and just use free flown birds, because the dog will not road in too close, or attempt to dive in and catch the bird, or chase it down after the flush.

This is... in Spaceball's terms... "the short, short version". But it is essentially what I do with my dogs and it works. This approach is detailed in numerous training books and has been re-iterated on this board and several others...many times. Even if you don'tneed or wnata dog to be steady to wing, shot and fall...it is actually easier to train for that in the beginning and then, as the dog gains experience in the field, to let that training slip a bit. If you hunt alone or with one reliable, safe partner, a dog that holds point until the bird flushes is just fine for most hunting situations.

You have all summer. OK you have birds and are itching to use them. But take the time to do it right.

Think through your plan BEFORE you go out to train. Know exactly what you are trying to accomplish and know, in detail, exactly how you are going to go about executing that training session. Know when you have accomplished your objective...so you know when to quit(sometimes knowing when to quit is the hardest thing). Always try to quit a winner.

PLAN YOUR WORK...THEN GO OUT AND WORK YOUR PLAN.

RayG

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DonF
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Re: using pen raised quail

Post by DonF » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:44 am

Ray does about exactly the same thing that I do. Only exception while I have a check cord on the dog, I don't gran a hold of it to stop the dog. Rather I pop the bird and let the dog chase. Now I do use pigeons and they generally don't land there the dog can catch them. To break the dog off chasing I revert back to the yard and I teach them to stop with a whoa and stay there with a released bird. Whoa command, dog stops and then release the bird. You have giver the dog a whoa command and what your doing is causing a distraction. The dog will chase awhile but the command and release of the bird keeps getting closer together until the command is dropped and a flushing bird is actually a whoa command.

Ray mentioned knowing exactly where the trap is and where the wind is, couldn't agree more. You need to learn to read your dog, it'll tell you what's going on with it's body action. The bird pop's immediately when the dog is in the scent, before the dog can point! First few time's the dog won't get a point but after that the dog does not point but actually slam's it faster than you can work the remote. The dog has to beat you to keep the bird down. I tried stepping on the check cord one time after the flush and the dog simply ripped it out from under my foot! My check cords are made of hard core braided nylon. If I'm holding the core, the back end has a knot in it, stops the dog from being able to pull the cord from my had. When the dog is running the knot is removed. It could hang up the dog if it got into a bush right.

One more thing, I doubt human scent on the birds cause's a problem in any way. Dog's that don't point what ever bird you train with I believe have learned to spot a set up and don't want to play any more. That is one reason you pop the bird so soon when starting out, you'll teach the dog it has to beat the flush And other than the trap, the bird will seem just like any other wild bird! You don't want the dog to quit on a certain bird, don't try so hard to make it a training bird. I'm also pretty sure the dog doesn't associate the scent of a pigeon or a quail or a chukar with training when they all act the same. Watch a dog out hunting that come's across a new bird. It usually hesitates just a bit, doesn't know what it is and then the training should pay off as it points the bird.
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Re: using pen raised quail

Post by shags » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:06 am

IME it depends on what kind of training you want to do. Planted quail with a young dog on a cc is one thing, but entirely different with that same dog running free and uncontrolled.

Another factor is how you plant. I've seen guys go out and dig a divot with their heel, stick a dizzied bird head down in the hole, then cover it up with dirt amd grass. That doesn't work out real well :lol: But a light dizzy and toss can work great.

If you have the room for johnny houses in your training area, it works very well to simply release birds and let them land where they will and let the dog find them - but this should be for reliable dogs, not so much for a youngster who is still into crash and grab, unless you have him on a cc. My friends with nice grounds put their j-houses in a field 200 feet or so from a woods line and the birds fly to natural likely cover, and recall later.

All my dogs have been trained on planted quail at some point and it all worked out great. Little if any launcher work, either (It's only a matter of preference).

I think it's worth a mention that birds will most likey be your greatest cash expenditure in training your dog. So don't think that your 100 birds will last from beginning to end of your dog's schooling. Remember that you don't need to put out lots of birds each session, either...no need for more than a couple good finds, even though you both think 6 or 7 would be great. I'm mindful of the weather also when training on those pricey birds...never with an east wind ( scenting is terrible and the birds go to waste) or with bad weather approaching ( birds aren't generally hardy enough to survive getting wet). Moulting birds are kind of dicey too. Lastly, I train my project dog first, then take out the old reliable veterans. It seems like the birds are good for two decent flushes only, so the project gets worked, then an older dog who gets to have some fun, and lots of times I can net the birds on the third time they're worked and re-pen them for another time.. I never let the project dog go back and do that kind of cleanup though, it's counterproductive to my purpose.

Good luck, have fun.

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Re: using pen raised quail

Post by averageguy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:44 pm

I use pigeons in launchers set in natural cover. I work the dog perpendicular to the wind and the moment the pup turns its head into the scent cone if it does not point, I launch the bird. No creeping allowed. I let my pups chase, but meanwhile I am walking towards the next bird and the pups catch on and learn to swing around and go with me vs chasing the bird very far. Pigeons will get up high and fly away so the temptation to chase is far less than low flying quail or chukar, and a pup will not run a pigeon to the ground and catch it as they commonly will pen raised quail or chukar.

I do all of this in silence with the pup dragging a light check cord but I am not holding on to it. I am conditioning the puppy that it either stops and points at first scent or it scares the bird away, letting it determine which with no interference from me. I introduce gunfire which I won't go into here, but once the pup is pointing and holding a point well enough for me to get ahead of it, I will begin shooting the launched birds for the pup. At this stage I have built the positive association that pointing, holding the point and letting me flush is the only behavior that results in a bird in its mouth. Then we are into our first hunting season on wild birds, with me only shooting the birds the pup points.

I train Whoa completely away from birds but do not use it in the field during the first hunting season. After the pups first hunting season I use the whoa command to train steady to WSF.

Once I have the dog trained to be steady to WSF I can work it on pen raised birds but I do not use them before. Way too easy for a pup to catch one and way too much pressure to keep them from doing so for me. Particularly when the pigeons avoid all that.

Most of what I just described is laid out in the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVDs.

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BuckeyeSteve
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Re: using pen raised quail

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:24 pm

Thanks all.....that's a ton of good advice. I'm very tempted on the launcher....but I've spent a ton of money on dog equip recently and my wife is probably going to kick me out if I drop another 300 right now. I think I'm going to have a somewhat fair supply of feral pigeons, and if I can get to the point where I can use my flight pen quail it will be a bonus. Hopefully by that point I'll have a good feel on the flightiness of my quail, and/or have spent the money on the launcher.
I'm going to make the best effort I can to keep these quail nervous and flighty. Once I move them to the flight pen, I'll stay away from them as much as possible (minus giving food and water and getting them out for use....which I still haven't figured out how to do).

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