Looking for advice: Updated, again

[Compton30]

Soooo I broke down and bought a second launcher to go along with the one my lovely lady got me. You guys are the worst! Haha. All joking aside, I have another question. What's an appropriate amount of birds per session? 2? 4? Everyday if possible? I know I have to reign myself in when it comes to training sometimes because when things are rolling, I just want to keep going and going. So I don't wanna overdo it. Just wondering what you guys think

[averageguy]

At the stage your pup is at I work 2 birds and do not work that method and subject every day. I break things up on a rotating basis. Take a walk in bird cover one day and get one or two good recalls while doing so, work a Hunt Dead drill, a water retrieve when we pass by a pond. Work pigeons in launchers the next day. Water work and another nature walk the next. Brief OB and retrieve work every day. 2 or 3 times a week work on the pigeons in launchers is plenty. I use different areas each time I work the pigeons and my objective is to build the pup's drive to search for and find birds in likely cover as well as give it opportunities for it's pointing instinct to develop through contacts with birds. I use the days when there is good wind moving to work the pigeons.

[DonF]

Something you may notice using the remote and doing it right, it will teach your dog to slam a point. When first starting, you don't give it a chance to establish a point. You pop it out first. To establish the point, the dog must be faster pointing than you are popping the bird, the dog will beat you before long. Such is the desire to get the bird. And when it does it will slam the bird. I remember the best lesson I ever got of this. One of my old shorthairs, Tieh, was just getting going and beat me on about the third of fourth bird. She was fairly small and a streak of light. She came across the bird and flipped her body to her right and continued on over her back and ended up stopped on point! She looked like she was going to split in two, tremendous intensity. You will have trouble getting that intensity with out the trap. On just a check cord, you teach the dog what you want. On the trap you teach the dog how to get what it want's. Ya both want the same thing but without the trap it's hands on, with the trap it's hands off.

[Featherfinder]

Glad you got a launcher Compton! Happy b-day too.
I'll start by saying, "I do things differently."
7 months is not too early to expect a reasonable performance from your pup. Dated methods mean you should definitely wait before pressuring your pup.
Kick cages, tethers, card board, garden hoses, launchers will ruin more decent natural bird dogs than they make. Admittedly, launchers can have a place in very early training but if over-done, the damage far exceeds the benefits. At best, they are an interim process that must - at some point - be displaced for more natural/realistic processes. Why not just go the natural route?
I believe that dogs have evolved over the past 40 years. I've been around long enough to know. What has made an even bigger transition is our understanding of a dog's capabilities. Some folk really struggle with letting go of methods that did/do in fact work. Then again, I no longer ride a horse and buggy to town. To say a horse and buddy won't get me to town would be a lie.
Mr. Higgins has a good grasp of the canine mind, in my opinion. Admittedly, I have in fact dovetailed some of his concepts into my processes with positive results. Eventually, his processes will become more of the norm once the masses better understand dogs.
Of course, by then they will have developed other titles by virtue of someone's epiphany. They will then lay claim to them along with their moniker. …nothing new.
It is not unusual to have a completely steady dog retrieving to hand from land and water, handling virtually speachlessly (absolutely NO whistle!!) at just after 1 year of age. The greatest of challenges is not in the dog(s). Then again, it never was.

[averageguy]

Compton 30, I used the methods I posted, most recently to develop my current dog in the summer of 2016. And I ran my pup on wild birds several times a week as well. Differences of opinion is one thing. Calling correct use of Launchers "Dated" and claiming it will ruin more dogs than it will train is ridiculous. Jon Hann has trained more dogs including many FCs than all the combined dogs of those posting on this forum using the method.

Once your pup is snapping into its points of birds in launchers and you can get in front, launch and shoot the bird, it is time to move on. But they are an excellent tool to get to that point.

I have studied the publicly available videos posted by Brad Higgins for several years. Claims it is some magical and dramatically different approach are grossly exaggerated!

Here is the last dog I ruined using the methods I posted, on a wild bird find this morning. He passed his NAVHDA UT at 18 months which requires steady to WSF and many other difficult and versatile subjects. You saw the video I posted of how he snapped into a point 40 yards off the bird at 16 months of age and stood steady to wing, shot and fall, persisted in hunting dead and retrieved to hand...

[DonF]

Soooo I broke down and bought a second launcher to go along with the one my lovely lady got me. You guys are the worst! Haha. All joking aside, I have another question. What's an appropriate amount of birds per session? 2? 4? Everyday if possible? I know I have to reign myself in when it comes to training sometimes because when things are rolling, I just want to keep going and going. So I don't wanna overdo it. Just wondering what you guys think

I like to do two or three a day. The idea is a couple good piece's of work is better than a couple good and a couple bad! I don't get around that well anymore so one thing I think is really good that I don't do anymore, is separate the birds a lot farther. If you get around good, plant far apart. Get a good piece of work then let your dog work on finding. Get the second and if there's a third, same routine. Bird work is only part of the game and if that's all you do your shorting yourself. Something I do with my guy and remotes is multiple finds. Couple birds in one spot and flush one right after the other.

But you really need to make yourself comfortable with birds. So long as it's going right, go for it. Dog fouls up, forget the birds and just go for a walk with him. Time on the ground means a lot!

[Featherfinder]

Averageguy, perhaps you struggle with letting go? Perhaps, you are fighting change? Perhaps Mr. Higgins methods won't work for you, your demeanor, your personality.
I HAVE employed a few of his concepts successfully although they are not that much of a leap from what I was doing. Perhaps that's why I had success?
The bottom line is, you should do what works for you Sir. Eventually the masses WILL catch up as we have historically. You don't HAVE to call it "Higgins" anything, if you prefer.
I was around when they used to shoot renegade pointers with rock salt from a 12 gauge. It worked....kinda.
I'm still not taking a horse and buggy to town, no matter what you say.

[averageguy]

Nope FF, I struggle with pompous arrogant behavior. Especially when it is also inaccurate.

[Featherfinder]

There you go attacking me personally. You should do exactly what you do, like I already said. There remains MUCH better processes.

All truth passes through three basic stages:
- first it is ridiculed,
- second it is violently opposed,
- thirdly, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

[averageguy]

I posted clear and convincing evidence the method you say ruins dogs, in fact produces excellent intense mannerly bird dogs. As to your posts, I called a Spade a Spade. Way overdue actually.

[Featherfinder]

I re-iterate, "Launchers can ruin decent bird dogs." So, if you wish to include yourself in that group Averageguy, have at 'er.
As for your counsel, I'm not saying it WON'T work. I'm saying there are better ways.
The obvious difference between you and I is that you are holding dearly to methods that have been successful to you. I get it. I did that too for years. Dogs have taught me that there are better ways, if you are receptive to improving.
I have developed champions from methods I literally cringe about today. Those dogs remain champions none-the-less. I have used the methods you allude to, and some progressions since then. Not all changes have worked for me either however training dogs is a journey, not a destination which is what I see as our biggest difference. I have moved on with some delightful results. The changes weren't always easy either but have they ever been rewarding!

[Compton30]

Wow when I opened the thread today I certainly wasn't expecting to find this conversation!

I appreciate both of your opinions and passion on the topic! I'd hate to see a very informative thread for me to be derailed by conflicting, but nonetheless successful training methods!

That being said, I'm going to use my launchers. The George Hickox program I'm following, which up until now has worked as good as I can implement it, uses launchers. I'm not going to deviate now.

I appreciate your interaction, Feather Finder. A difference in opinion is always welcome.

[Compton30]

Soooo I broke down and bought a second launcher to go along with the one my lovely lady got me. You guys are the worst! Haha. All joking aside, I have another question. What's an appropriate amount of birds per session? 2? 4? Everyday if possible? I know I have to reign myself in when it comes to training sometimes because when things are rolling, I just want to keep going and going. So I don't wanna overdo it. Just wondering what you guys think

I like to do two or three a day. The idea is a couple good piece's of work is better than a couple good and a couple bad! I don't get around that well anymore so one thing I think is really good that I don't do anymore, is separate the birds a lot farther. If you get around good, plant far apart. Get a good piece of work then let your dog work on finding. Get the second and if there's a third, same routine. Bird work is only part of the game and if that's all you do your shorting yourself. Something I do with my guy and remotes is multiple finds. Couple birds in one spot and flush one right after the other.

But you really need to make yourself comfortable with birds. So long as it's going right, go for it. Dog fouls up, forget the birds and just go for a walk with him. Time on the ground means a lot!

It's funny you mentioned separating the birds pretty far from each other as I was already considering that. Since the prescription is only 2 birds a day, I dont want our work to be done in 15 minutes or shorter. I wanna make him work to find the birds. Obviously there's a guarantee involved here, but I don't want it to be immediately.

[DonF]

I re-iterate, "Launchers can ruin decent bird dogs." So, if you wish to include yourself in that group Averageguy, have at 'er.
As for your counsel, I'm not saying it WON'T work. I'm saying there are better ways.
The obvious difference between you and I is that you are holding dearly to methods that have been successful to you. I get it. I did that too for years. Dogs have taught me that there are better ways, if you are receptive to improving.
I have developed champions from methods I literally cringe about today. Those dogs remain champions none-the-less. I have used the methods you allude to, and some progressions since then. Not all changes have worked for me either however training dogs is a journey, not a destination which is what I see as our biggest difference. I have moved on with some delightful results. The changes weren't always easy either but have they ever been rewarding!

Launcher's have never ruined a bird dog although improper use of them may well cause problems. The launcher's are nothing more than tool's you can use, not one more thing!

[ezzy333]

Absolutely right. We hear so often about SUV's running over people, guns killing people, and now launchers ruining dogs, that it is become evident that our society is trying to change what has been self-effevident for many years that tools are just tools and the one using them is the problem and not the tool

Ezzy.

[JONOV]

On the subject of ruining dogs, I've seen a dog ruined by a regular check cord. How? Owner never let the dog get out of check cord range for 18 months.

A launcher is a tool. While some tools (like a sledge hammer) might have the potential to do a lot more damage than ohters, like a screw driver, that doesn't mean you can't ruin something with a screw driver. Anyone that's stripped a screw can tell you that. Any training tool, check cord, e-collar, launcher, kick trap, leash, your hands, your shotgun, the capgun, can ruin a dog.

On the whole, you don't really hear about people wrecking dogs with launchers. Do they create challenges they have to overcome? Some do, no doubt. But if OP is following a plan, (and Mr. Hickox probably has a great training plan) then the risk is pretty minimal. Less risky then when my wife gets her hand on my drill, for sure.

[Featherfinder]

Well stated JONOV. The connection to the launcher is a trainer - someone that launches the bird. That is where the fault often lies. Occasionally it's a technical malfunction. Either way....not good. Not insurmountable either, just not good.
I don't promote launchers in the development of young dogs for those reasons. I don't use any external device(s). I keep it as natural as possible where-by the bird teaches the early lessons.
Anyway, we have long ago established that there are many ways to "skin a cat". That is but one advantage of a forum! It can be normally be done without attacking each other. On rare occasion...…
Compton, you are a true gentleman and I appreciate your class and candor.
I wish you only success in whatever your endeavors re training your pup consist of. Please keep us in the loop Sir.

[averageguy]

Averageguy, perhaps you struggle with letting go? Perhaps, you are fighting change?
I'm still not taking a horse and buggy to town, no matter what you say.

FF, You post an over the top opinion, multiple times including the headline "LAUNCHERS RUIN MORE DOGS THAN THEY TRAIN". I disgree. You post the insults above and I let you know how I feel about it. Multiple folks post supportive comments for using launcher and now you post some back pedaling dribble, including not subtle insinuations you are a put upon gentleman victim ...

How about we put an end to that aspect of this thread?

[ezzy333]

How about the next time you feel the urge to criticize anyone personally you just keep it to your self or asked to be banned as the rest of us are tired of hearing it. We all can read what is posted the first time and after that it is just dribble. That is not our purpose.

Ezzy

[averageguy]

Sure as soon as you start applying your standards evenly to all, that would be great Ezzy.

[Compton30]

Well stated JONOV. The connection to the launcher is a trainer - someone that launches the bird. That is where the fault often lies. Occasionally it's a technical malfunction. Either way....not good. Not insurmountable either, just not good.
I don't promote launchers in the development of young dogs for those reasons. I don't use any external device(s). I keep it as natural as possible where-by the bird teaches the early lessons.
Anyway, we have long ago established that there are many ways to "skin a cat". That is but one advantage of a forum! It can be normally be done without attacking each other. On rare occasion...…
Compton, you are a true gentleman and I appreciate your class and candor.
I wish you only success in whatever your endeavors re training your pup consist of. Please keep us in the loop Sir.

Thank you for the kind words. As my dad used to say, "There's only one way to do things, the right way. But there's more than one right way."

Anyway, I agree with the sentiment that it is nearly always the person who screws something up, not the instrument they are using. I've been extremely cautious with my pup when it comes to guns and birds(even though we were near a local park one day for a walk and he put a grouse up before bird intro. Got lucky), and it will be the same with launchers.

I respect all of your opinions, as folks who've trained far more dogs than I have and to higher levels than I probably ever will. I plan to continue to ask questions. Just because I'm not a veteran trainer doesnt mean I'm going to set my aim any lower.

The launchers are going to get their first call to action this weekend, I'll report back with how things go. Appreciate all the advice and comments guys, you're all a wealth of knowledge!

[Featherfinder]

Great stuff Compton and I'm looking forward to the reports. I believe you will end up with a wonderful dog because of who you are. You processed the options, made a choice and your commitment will serve you, I'm confident.

[Compton30]

Just wanted to take a minute to bump this thread and thank everyone who contributed to helping me out! I put all the information and advice given here to use and got my buddy Jax pointing and even steady to flush.

This forum has been an invaluable tool and I really just wanted to thank everyone.

Here's a crappy pic of him on point. I should've walked closer before taking it but I wasnt thinking about photo quality at the time. Next time I'll get a better one.

But once again, thanks to all the folks who offered me their advice and wisdom. I truly appreciate it!

[gonehuntin']

Don F knows more about launchers than anyone I know. Listen CLOSELY to what he tells you.