Hi all, I have learned so much by reading all the of posts and hope one day I can be wise enough to contribute back. I'd appreciate some input/ideas on how to handle a situation I'm having with my 5 month GSP. I've tried to search this question but didn't really find a clear answer.
I've been blessed that my first bird dog to train is such a natural that he is overcoming my lack of experience. Pup is holding a point, retrieving dummies reliably, not the slightest gun shy and just plain crazy for birds. The issue I'm trying to work through right now is I have shot his first pigeons over him and he quickly finds and recovers the birds then starts to return the bird to me but its like the taste is too much for him and he wants to sit down and try to pluck it. I've used frozen pigeons and it is a little better he'll bring them back more reliably but he gets hardheaded with a bird in his mouth and doesn't listen. So far I've always had a check cord attached and drag him in when he tries to take off with the bird or lay down with it. I fear making the wrong type of correction with this and ruining his love to hunt.
The only thing I know to do is continue with the check cord and forcing him back while using come/here command & hope the newness of the bird taste wears off. I appreciate any ideas, and please don't roast me if this is a dumb question!
How to correct dog while retrieving
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Txhunter27
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How to correct dog while retrieving
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
What are your goals with the dog?
The easy answer is Force Fetch. Or wait a few months and force fetch, 5 months is kind of young. A trainer told me not to use frozen birds, either.
Alternatively, you could try putting him on the table and teaching a reliable "hold," where you put things in his mouth and make him hold it. Then once he does that you make him heel all around, or come to you when holding something.
Does the dog still have puppy teeth?
The easy answer is Force Fetch. Or wait a few months and force fetch, 5 months is kind of young. A trainer told me not to use frozen birds, either.
Alternatively, you could try putting him on the table and teaching a reliable "hold," where you put things in his mouth and make him hold it. Then once he does that you make him heel all around, or come to you when holding something.
Does the dog still have puppy teeth?
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birddogger2
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
There are much more knowledgeable folks on here as far as retriever training is concern, but the first thing I would do, if it were my dog, is to completely back off the live bird or even frozen bird training. You are giving the dog the dog the opportunity to mess up with live birds. Not a good plan. If it is going to mess up and get corrected, I would want it to be on bumpers and bucks...not birds.
I would instead use bumpers or bucks(hard wood) and drill the dog on proper fetch and hold. If you knew a retriever person or had access to a Navhda training group, there might be a training table available which can help a lot. A 16 ft. table with an overhead cable would be ideal. I think the first parts of the "force" fetch or "trained" fetch process show how to properly introduce a dog to the concept of "fetch", the concept of "hold" and the concept of "give" without too much pressure. Might be good for you to get a DVD and review them, or to have someone show you. It is one of those things that is kinda "hands on" and something you have to get a "feel" for
with the individual dog, so I would do my homework and go slowly at first.
Once the dog has the "fetch" and "give" commands instilled, you can whoa the dog and hook them to the overhead cable at one end, put a bumper down half way and then go down to the far end and issue a fetch command. If the dog picks up the bumper and stops to mess with it, having a check cord on the dog will assist in making the dog complete the retrieve. The dog is hooked up from above and on a check cord, so it really has limited options and you are in a position to assure both compliance AND success.
Anyhow, I would do however many drills it took to get the dog VERY reliable on the entire process before I would re-introduce anything resembling a bird. The training table setup is where I would re-introduce a pigeon.
Hopefully someone with more experience will comment.
RayG
I would instead use bumpers or bucks(hard wood) and drill the dog on proper fetch and hold. If you knew a retriever person or had access to a Navhda training group, there might be a training table available which can help a lot. A 16 ft. table with an overhead cable would be ideal. I think the first parts of the "force" fetch or "trained" fetch process show how to properly introduce a dog to the concept of "fetch", the concept of "hold" and the concept of "give" without too much pressure. Might be good for you to get a DVD and review them, or to have someone show you. It is one of those things that is kinda "hands on" and something you have to get a "feel" for
with the individual dog, so I would do my homework and go slowly at first.
Once the dog has the "fetch" and "give" commands instilled, you can whoa the dog and hook them to the overhead cable at one end, put a bumper down half way and then go down to the far end and issue a fetch command. If the dog picks up the bumper and stops to mess with it, having a check cord on the dog will assist in making the dog complete the retrieve. The dog is hooked up from above and on a check cord, so it really has limited options and you are in a position to assure both compliance AND success.
Anyhow, I would do however many drills it took to get the dog VERY reliable on the entire process before I would re-introduce anything resembling a bird. The training table setup is where I would re-introduce a pigeon.
Hopefully someone with more experience will comment.
RayG
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averageguy
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
Not a dumb question at all and you are mostly handling as I would. A strong recall is needed so continue to work on that. At some point I would be overlaying an ecollar to your recall command and continue working it so one command in many situations yields swift compliance (Perfect Start DVD has excellent instruction on that and other critical training).
And I would use PR methods to teach the pup to Hold objects. Then I would combine a trained Hold Command with the Recall to get the pup reliably retrieving bumpers to hand.
I would work with dead birds in a tunnel such I constructed here with the pup on a check cord. Toss the bird a short distance down the tunnel and give your recall command the moment the pup gets the bird in its mouth and give a gentle tug on the check cord to get him headed in your direction. When he arrives, praise profusely while allowing him to hold the bird, then remove and give it a short toss down the alley way. Quit after the 2nd successful retrieve and repeat the next day ... When the pup is working well in that controlled setting move to short tosses outside of tunnel still on the check cord.
Get the pup going and out and back with dead birds dragging the check cord always. In the open if the pup goes the other way get your foot on the check cord, give your recall command and bring him to you. If he drops the bird, I would go pick it up, put it away and end the game. Until you have a trained and enforceable command for Fetch, giving any commands that have not yet been trained and can be enforced is something to avoid.
At the age of your pup I would be working on a crisp recall for many reasons including retrieving so work on that in many settings. The Hold command can be trained away from birds using PR. It can be done in your living room, rewarding the puppy for Holding the object you give with a marker word or Clicker and treat, to mark and reward the Hold behavior. Then you can combine the two commands with tossed objects and engrain the behavior. Then work the same behavior using a room temperature dead bird in the tunnel and see how it goes. Down the road ( likely after hunting season given where we are on the calendar and the age of your puppy), you can take the pup through Trained Retrieve program. But many or even most pups with a strong natural retrieve, a trained Hold command and a good crisp recall, can be trained to bring birds to you before a full Trained Retrieve program is completed at an older age.
Meanwhile while shooting birds for your pup, I would have it drag a check cord. When the pup gets the bird in its mouth I would call it once. It if comes with the birds great! praise profusely letting the pup hold the bird a moment and then gently take it away. If it comes without the bird that is ok too at this stage, and I would just calmly walk over and pickup the bird myself and move on. If it ignores your recall command I would use the check cord to bring the pup on in to me and move on.
Again until the Hold and Recall are trained and working in other situations you cannot get any where in this situation until they are. Don't sweat it, just work on training those commands in other settings and meanwhile do not let the pup do any chewing or pulling feathers on the shot birds meanwhile. Just gently take them away if that starts and move on for the time being.
What you are encountering is common, Just don't let a habit of chewing on birds develop.
And I would use PR methods to teach the pup to Hold objects. Then I would combine a trained Hold Command with the Recall to get the pup reliably retrieving bumpers to hand.
I would work with dead birds in a tunnel such I constructed here with the pup on a check cord. Toss the bird a short distance down the tunnel and give your recall command the moment the pup gets the bird in its mouth and give a gentle tug on the check cord to get him headed in your direction. When he arrives, praise profusely while allowing him to hold the bird, then remove and give it a short toss down the alley way. Quit after the 2nd successful retrieve and repeat the next day ... When the pup is working well in that controlled setting move to short tosses outside of tunnel still on the check cord.
Get the pup going and out and back with dead birds dragging the check cord always. In the open if the pup goes the other way get your foot on the check cord, give your recall command and bring him to you. If he drops the bird, I would go pick it up, put it away and end the game. Until you have a trained and enforceable command for Fetch, giving any commands that have not yet been trained and can be enforced is something to avoid.
At the age of your pup I would be working on a crisp recall for many reasons including retrieving so work on that in many settings. The Hold command can be trained away from birds using PR. It can be done in your living room, rewarding the puppy for Holding the object you give with a marker word or Clicker and treat, to mark and reward the Hold behavior. Then you can combine the two commands with tossed objects and engrain the behavior. Then work the same behavior using a room temperature dead bird in the tunnel and see how it goes. Down the road ( likely after hunting season given where we are on the calendar and the age of your puppy), you can take the pup through Trained Retrieve program. But many or even most pups with a strong natural retrieve, a trained Hold command and a good crisp recall, can be trained to bring birds to you before a full Trained Retrieve program is completed at an older age.
Meanwhile while shooting birds for your pup, I would have it drag a check cord. When the pup gets the bird in its mouth I would call it once. It if comes with the birds great! praise profusely letting the pup hold the bird a moment and then gently take it away. If it comes without the bird that is ok too at this stage, and I would just calmly walk over and pickup the bird myself and move on. If it ignores your recall command I would use the check cord to bring the pup on in to me and move on.
Again until the Hold and Recall are trained and working in other situations you cannot get any where in this situation until they are. Don't sweat it, just work on training those commands in other settings and meanwhile do not let the pup do any chewing or pulling feathers on the shot birds meanwhile. Just gently take them away if that starts and move on for the time being.
What you are encountering is common, Just don't let a habit of chewing on birds develop.
Last edited by averageguy on Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Txhunter27
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
Thanks guys! Both of you mentioned teaching the hold command of which I have not worked on at all and seems to be the place to start, that and backing up to dummies. Sure is hard to keep from getting excited and moving too quickly, especially with dove season quickly approaching. I really appreciate the advice.
Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
No one's going to pick on you for a dumb question. You're a serious guy with a nice looking dog that you're working with.
The above answers are quite sensible, but note average guy's observation that two good retrieves with dead birds are enough. Personally, I'd back off on shooting birds totally --no reason he can't watch then fly off after you shoot a blank pistol -- and just work on enthusiastic fun recalls, limited bumper/dummy retrieves and a non-force hold command. He's a puppy, though apparently one with good instincts. Don't push too hard, too fast. Plenty of time to get firm --or to force train if needed -- later.
The above answers are quite sensible, but note average guy's observation that two good retrieves with dead birds are enough. Personally, I'd back off on shooting birds totally --no reason he can't watch then fly off after you shoot a blank pistol -- and just work on enthusiastic fun recalls, limited bumper/dummy retrieves and a non-force hold command. He's a puppy, though apparently one with good instincts. Don't push too hard, too fast. Plenty of time to get firm --or to force train if needed -- later.
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Txhunter27
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
JONOV:
My goal is to simply to have an enjoyable hunting companion, not requiring a champion but I think it would be fun to do the NAVHDA tests.
Puppy Teeth: I'm embarrassed to say I haven't looked recently, good reminder that I should be doing health checks more regularly.
As for not using frozen birds, did he say a reason? I would assume its due to it causing more hard mouth problems?
Thank you!
My goal is to simply to have an enjoyable hunting companion, not requiring a champion but I think it would be fun to do the NAVHDA tests.
Puppy Teeth: I'm embarrassed to say I haven't looked recently, good reminder that I should be doing health checks more regularly.
As for not using frozen birds, did he say a reason? I would assume its due to it causing more hard mouth problems?
Thank you!
Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
Five mo old pup? I wouldn't worry about it. Once it get's used to the bird it will quit doing that. One big mistake I see a lot of people do is start a pup actually before it's ready and then wonder how to fix the problem they created. But even a lot of problem's they create will magicly work them selves out in the end.
A 5 mo old pup is just that, a pup! You teach him new thing's like pointing and it does what you want, tries it's best to make youhappy. Then somewhere around a year it grows up and decides you really aren't the best judge and start's doing a few thing's to make itself happy. Your left wondering what went wrong when in fact nothing went wrong, your pup just grew up, that's it. Stay the course and it'll come back.
For the immediate problem. I'd start with a frozen bird thawed 20 min of so. Put the pup on a check cord and flip the bird out a short way and send the pup When the pup get's there call it back right away and pull it off. If it wants to go right back, let it but if it doesn't pick the bird right up, pull it off again. Try one more time and if it doesn't do it that time, give it a rest for a couple days and start over. Keep in mind your working with a pup. It's not flipping you the bird, it's being a pup! Doing this do not at anytime throw the dead bird farther than the check cord. Your goal is not to prove to yourself that you were right and the pup won't do it from very far off, your goal is to get the pup, PUP, to do it right! When it get's good with the frozen bird use a fresh killed bird. Do not kill the bird over the pup to see if it will do it. It might and it might not. Start over from the beginning with the check cord till the pup is doing it right.
Everyone want's a finished gun dog by the time their pup is six months old and then wonder what happened when to pup grows up and excerpts it new found independence!
A 5 mo old pup is just that, a pup! You teach him new thing's like pointing and it does what you want, tries it's best to make youhappy. Then somewhere around a year it grows up and decides you really aren't the best judge and start's doing a few thing's to make itself happy. Your left wondering what went wrong when in fact nothing went wrong, your pup just grew up, that's it. Stay the course and it'll come back.
For the immediate problem. I'd start with a frozen bird thawed 20 min of so. Put the pup on a check cord and flip the bird out a short way and send the pup When the pup get's there call it back right away and pull it off. If it wants to go right back, let it but if it doesn't pick the bird right up, pull it off again. Try one more time and if it doesn't do it that time, give it a rest for a couple days and start over. Keep in mind your working with a pup. It's not flipping you the bird, it's being a pup! Doing this do not at anytime throw the dead bird farther than the check cord. Your goal is not to prove to yourself that you were right and the pup won't do it from very far off, your goal is to get the pup, PUP, to do it right! When it get's good with the frozen bird use a fresh killed bird. Do not kill the bird over the pup to see if it will do it. It might and it might not. Start over from the beginning with the check cord till the pup is doing it right.
Everyone want's a finished gun dog by the time their pup is six months old and then wonder what happened when to pup grows up and excerpts it new found independence!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
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Txhunter27
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
Solid points... Thank you! I'll give it a shotDonF wrote:Five mo old pup? I wouldn't worry about it. Once it get's used to the bird it will quit doing that. One big mistake I see a lot of people do is start a pup actually before it's ready and then wonder how to fix the problem they created. But even a lot of problem's they create will magicly work them selves out in the end.
A 5 mo old pup is just that, a pup! You teach him new thing's like pointing and it does what you want, tries it's best to make youhappy. Then somewhere around a year it grows up and decides you really aren't the best judge and start's doing a few thing's to make itself happy. Your left wondering what went wrong when in fact nothing went wrong, your pup just grew up, that's it. Stay the course and it'll come back.
For the immediate problem. I'd start with a frozen bird thawed 20 min of so. Put the pup on a check cord and flip the bird out a short way and send the pup When the pup get's there call it back right away and pull it off. If it wants to go right back, let it but if it doesn't pick the bird right up, pull it off again. Try one more time and if it doesn't do it that time, give it a rest for a couple days and start over. Keep in mind your working with a pup. It's not flipping you the bird, it's being a pup! Doing this do not at anytime throw the dead bird farther than the check cord. Your goal is not to prove to yourself that you were right and the pup won't do it from very far off, your goal is to get the pup, PUP, to do it right! When it get's good with the frozen bird use a fresh killed bird. Do not kill the bird over the pup to see if it will do it. It might and it might not. Start over from the beginning with the check cord till the pup is doing it right.
Everyone want's a finished gun dog by the time their pup is six months old and then wonder what happened when to pup grows up and excerpts it new found independence!
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averageguy
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
I shape and train my puppies early and often and accomplish a great deal at a young age in doing so. Just have to use the right PR based methods for the stage of development they are in and stay away from Force until they are ready. Which is after their first hunting season for me and my pups relative to FF and Steadiness to WSF. But my pups have all done an excellent job of recovering and retrieving shot birds in their first hunting season using the approach I outlined above.
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Txhunter27
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
Thats really encouraging, I really feel I have not pushed this pup to hard or far yet, he really is taking to training easily, I haven't had to force him to do anything up until this issue. I agree that I feel its best to wait until after the first season until I get too picky about FF and steadiness.averageguy wrote:I shape and train my puppies early and often and accomplish a great deal at a young age in doing so. Just have to use the right PR based methods for the stage of development they are in and stay away from Force until they are ready. Which is after their first hunting season for me and my pups relative to FF and Steadiness to WSF. But my pups have all done an excellent job of recovering and retrieving shot birds in their first hunting season using the approach I outlined above.
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gonehuntin'
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
It's a puppy thing; most will do it at some point. Never take him off the CC. Try laying down on the grass and coaxing him to you, then praising the day lights out of him. Once he gets to you, and they usually will come if you lay down, do NOT take the bird. Let him prance with it on a short CC for 10 seconds or so, THEN take it.
Later when and if you ff him at 8-10 months, you will obedience train him as well and that will solve the problem. REMEMBER! He's a baby, don't hurt him. PR works FAR better at this age than any force.
Later when and if you ff him at 8-10 months, you will obedience train him as well and that will solve the problem. REMEMBER! He's a baby, don't hurt him. PR works FAR better at this age than any force.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
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CDN_Cocker
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
Never ever use frozen pigeons. Thaw first. All frozen pigeons do is cause mouth issues.
Cass
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr
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Txhunter27
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Re: How to correct dog while retrieving
Thanks! Definitely see that now.. Seems so obvious now, should of thought of that earlier.CDN_Cocker wrote:Never ever use frozen pigeons. Thaw first. All frozen pigeons do is cause mouth issues.