launcher

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Speaks
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launcher

Post by Speaks » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:41 am

Hi guys,

I am starting to plan out my training purchases for the new pup I am getting so I can start buying pieces at a time rather than all at once next summer.

Last bird dog I trained only got wild birds, due to my living situation way back then I just didnt have a place to keep birds or train easily with kept birds. This time is different. But I have a few questions.

1. What would be a good bird launcher to get, ideally I would like a system where 2/3 remote launchers tie to one controller. I see dogtra and dt out there but it looks like for dogtra two launchers on one remote takes a cord between them. Also to specify what I want is not to launch two at once but to put in two different places.

2. It sounds like pigeon is the best bet in general. I also live about 2 miles from the ground I will be training on so quail would not call back to the pen I would keep. It would not be the end of the world to use em and loose em if they were better than pigeon but it just does not sound like they are.

3. Does anyone have any thoughts on a simple small pigeon loft or a link to a good resource on how to keep them. Everything on youtube is quite large and elaborate. Its been hard to find a good step by step guide to keeping a small amount of pigeons for dog training.

4. Off topic, I am also researching training colors. The new Garmin 550 Pro plus looks like a winner, has tracking but simpler than the alpha. Thoughts between that and the dogtra 2500

Thank you for your help.

cjhills
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Re: launcher

Post by cjhills » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:08 am

Either of these launchers will do what you want. I am not sure how many launchers you can launch on one remote but it is way more than you need. No cord between them on Dogtra. The only thing is having the remote set for the right launcher and changing it between launches. It is easy to forget. This is a issue if you launch a bird 200 yds away instead of the one the dog is pointing. Pigeons are the best launcher birds by far and it should be quite easy to get them to return to a small loft from 2 miles away. Almost any small building will work and a wire dog crate makes a good aviary if you get one with two doors and put 1/2inch wire in the bottom. Now would be the time to get pigeons started.
Be careful with the launcher so you don't cause more problems than you solve. As quick as the dog is holding point go to kick cages and planted birds......Cj

birddogger2
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Re: launcher

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:52 am

Speaks -

If you have the ability to put something on the grounds you are training on, you could build a plastic barrel based callback unit or even two. These units are capable of holding about a dozen quail(max).

There are plans online that I saw and a number of years ago Gundog magazine had an article with plans. My only addition would be a 4 ft. high welded wire fence around the callback barrel. The stuff with 1 1/2 to 2" wide spacing will be wide enough to allow the quail to come back in, but probably small enough to keep the bigger predators out. If the barrels are only 2 miles from your home, you could buzz over there and shut the callback funnels at night to keep critters out.

This way you could have the best of both worlds... good flying birds in a nearly wild scenario. If I had the room available, that is what I'd do.

As far as using pigeons, you can trap ferals , if they are in your area, or perhaps find a farmer who will let you put a catch cage somewhere. If there is a poultry auction nearby to you, they often sell feral pigeons. At $2-3 bucks a bird, it is not worth(IMO) setting up a coop for them. A smallish holding cage is all you will need. I used to get my ferals from an Amish young man who raised and caught them. You may be able to work something out with locals, even businesses who have a pigeon problem.

Pigeons have one HUGE advantage, when kept in release traps or kick cages. They will not typically land on the ground after being released, so the chances of your dog catching one are pretty small, once the bird is airborne. The one big problem you have with pigeons is that they will not stay on the ground unless you put them to sleep pretty hard and that makes them an easy target for the approaching dog, which is why release traps or kick cages are a better way to go with them.

RayG

cjhills
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Re: launcher

Post by cjhills » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:47 am

It has been my experience that birds in kick cages are pretty easy targets for approaching dogs. Better to wait until the dog is pointing solid and allowing you to flush before you use them IMO......Cj

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DonF
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Re: launcher

Post by DonF » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:13 am

I have had three different set's of traps over the years. presently I'm using the Lion Country set, three traps. I have no complaint's about their traps. Gertie was by last spring with a friend and he had a set of Dogtra traps. Very nice and worked very well. Don't know what they cost.

For a recall pen you could use a portable pen. I've seen them but never saw one work. I have one I made for chukar but haven't tried it yet. I don't train with pen raised game birds, lot's of people do. Major problems for me with them. Unless you have a good flight pen, they don't fly well. Then even if you do, many aare subject to running around on the ground, especially chukar. If you use pigeons you can set up most any situation you want and easily simulate a wild bird. I have never had a dog trained with traps and pigeons and used like a wild bird, quit pointing pigeons. Something to bear in mind, dog's really don't know the difference between wild and pen raised and pigeons until you teach them!

You do not need homing pigeons, feral are more than adequate and free if your willing to go catch them at night. Gertie had good luck using a trap she got somewhere, I've never tried it enough to know. All my feral were caught by hand at night years ago and I got my homer start from a guy I know that race's them. Advantage for me to feral is the size. Much smaller than my homer's and much easier to work with. If you have the older smaller traps, in hot weather they will kill big homer's, not the ferals. Feral birds will home just fine just not as far as homers. I've had them come home from over 50 mi, you're training two mile's away. Ferals being so much smaller, eat less. You'll find feral birds are less friendly too. They come out of the trap and go right into flying. Some homer's will come out and land again right there to walk around a moment, bad situation for young dog's. Since getting my homer's I have found that I can get some really beautiful birds but the ferals work better day in and day out.

Loft can be pretty much what ever you want. I'm sure I could take a box the washing machine came in and settle birds in it. I've got nesting box's in my loft's and still get a good number of bird's that nest on the floor instead, every nest is never filled. Ferals seem to re-settle easier but bit seem to do fine if you get them on a couple nest's first. After the nesting you could try to run them off and you don't lose much because you have the birds hatched and raised there, hard to run them off! I think the room needed in the loft is two sq ft per bird. That is the rule but I've seen them with less room than that. An 8'x8'x8' loft will give you all the room you'll need. Add a few nesting box's and your set. BTW, the birds that leave eggs in the middle of the floor, won't set them, just throw them away. I've never had them set them in the middle of a wall either, throw them. They do set well when they make a nest in a corner and very well under an object. Couple thing's a lot of people don't get is homer's are not necessary. from moderate distances, say 50mi, ferals home just as well. The other is don't shoot up all your birds right away. Get them settled and on nest's and don't use nesting birds at all if you can help it and in a year or so your gonna have to shoot birds to keep from being over run. I have a guy that get's birds from me now and then, usually 20 at a time. He complains about having to pay $7 a bird but just doesn't get it he could raise his own for less. He is a pro trainer and refuse's to use pigeons to train with. So instead he use's chukar's that cost about $9 ea and they are one time use! Then he get pigeon's to kill, go figure! He's never used pigeon's and hasn't a clue how expensive birds are for him and how well a dog can be trained on pigeon's.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

averageguy
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Re: launcher

Post by averageguy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:01 pm

Speaks, I built two coops off these plans. Doubled the width on the second one and recommend the same to you if you pursue it. Having a coop of homing pigeons and another for ferals and a couple of reliable launchers has been excellent for my work bringing young pointing dog puppies along.

https://www.gundogsupply.com/-3720-.htm ... gJKt_D_BwE

I bought two DT launchers and one remote and have had good success with them for 16 years but I hear alot of great reviews for Dogtra as well.

Before I built my pigeon coops I used two extra large wire dog crates set on saw horses in my machine shed to house feral pigeons. I could put up to 15 of them in each crate and the Ferals would still fly strong a month later.

After my pups first hunting season I will use kick cages as part of training steady to WSF, but not until, as I agree with CJ, it is easy for a dog to crowd the bird in a kick cage and you have no ability to launch the bird when they do as with a remote launcher. Once my puppies are pointing at first scent and holding point well enough for me to be out in front to launch the bird, I start shooting the pigeon for the pup. And after than has gone well, I discontinue that work and hunt the pup on wild birds through its first season.

Pigeons are your best training bird, as noted they will fly up high and away and thus the pup will not chase them as hard or as far and never catch them as they will exhausted quail or chukars.

Good job thinking ahead before your pup arrives.
Last edited by averageguy on Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

birddogger2
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Re: launcher/kick cages

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:51 pm

speaks -

First thing is to say NOTHING. Do all of this silently.

If the dog shows a tendency to crowd birds, you can either use remote release traps... or you can have a 20 ft. or so, checkcord on the pup. As the pup approaches the cage, you can stop it with a pop of the cord. If the dog persists in its approach you should continue to pop the cord. If the pup dives in, haul it back off and be forceful about it. If the dog stops, but is too close to the cage, go in, keeping the check cord taut... physically pick the dog up with both hands under its belly, carry it back to where it should have stopped and place it down, front paws first, then slowly put the rear of the dog down. As you are lowering the back end to the ground, apply a little forward pressure to force the dog to dig in and resist being pushed forward. Have the checkcord in hand and gently but firmly push the dog from the back end toward the bird using the flat of your hand against the dog's backside. This also will "encourage' the dog to dig in and resist being pushed forward. If the dog takes a step...pop the checkcord, pick the dog up again...go back a couple of paces and place the dog down as before...front legs first and slowly lowering the back end to the ground...with a little forward pressure.

If the dog has not "learned" to get too close, via repetitions of bad behavior, bad timing on your part, etc, the corrections detailed above should be effective, fairly quickly.

I have a pair of remote release traps, and have had them for many years. They are expensive, but they are probably the best solution to getting a dog steady to wing at first scent, especially for the novice trainer.

If you join a training group, you may be able to borrow or rent remote release traps from someone in the group. You will not need them for very long if you do it right from the start.

RayG


RayG

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