Is my GSP hunting too fast?

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Tuckerterra
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Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by Tuckerterra » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:35 pm

I have a GSP and she will be 2 in October. I had quite a few hunting hounds in the past but never a bird dog, so I am a rookie at the training methods used for birds. I also have never really used a bird dog to hunt with.

I have homing pigeons I've been using with her, and for the most part she seems to be doing alright. I work with her mostly walking down logging roads. I live in Maine so old toat roads are where I do most my hunting.

My question is whether my dog is hunting too fast. She runs the whole time she's hinting (in horse terms she is always at a fast trot to gallop).

I feel she is going too fast and she gets too close to the birds before she smells them (cause she's running). I don't know if this is true.

She does cover a ton of ground. Her GPS collar said she went 3.5 miles in the time I walked 1 mile.

Has anyone else had issues with this and if so how do I fix it. Or is this not a problem at all? I can slow her down by calling out "EASY!" And she will slow right down, but then she won't go out as far.

Thanks for your input

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:29 pm

It is not a problem and her speed is definitely not to fast. If anything, it's slow. To give you an idea, my DD's average about 7mph hunting and DD's are not fast dog's. YOU have to learn to hunt a pointing dog and let her roll. SHE is doing what is natural for her. Many people feel, myself included, that's the faster a dog hunts, the more birds it will pin.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Tuckerterra
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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by Tuckerterra » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:45 am

Okay, that's what I was wondering. Her AVG speed said 6.7. I guess I'm just amazed she can smell birds soon enough running that fast the whole time!

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Tooling
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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by Tooling » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:52 am

The mere fact your dog will slow it down on your command in the field speaks volumes. Your dog likes you and is showing behavior in the field that clearly shows she wants to please you. Now it's your turn to loosen up the reins a little and begin to trust your dog. Over time you'll find that you can. Too much control at this stage for too long could actually start taking something out of the dog and you may find yourself in the opposite position of trying to push her out..that's a worse problem to have.

Keep her safe and cut her loose a bit..she is a shorthair : ), she's 2, and she has lots of birds on her mind. That's a good thing.

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Windyhills
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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by Windyhills » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:47 am

Normal IMO, as is bumping birds at that age. Still pretty young. The popular advice is usually to keep working--on wild birds especially, as you can--and let the birds teach the dog.

I think that's ultimately what needs to happen but think you can help move the process along with training using birds in a way that gets them a bit more cautious. I'd wait until after this wild bird season to try that though given the age of your pup.

Grouse can take some time to figure out, IMO that's even more true with versatile breeds that have a lot of prey drive as many do. Have you worked your pup on woodcock? I think that can help too.

Does it dive into both sides of the trail and go back and forth or primarily run the trails with you? If it doesn't work and get off the trail I'd start leaving the trail while hunting myself.
Last edited by Windyhills on Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

birddogger2
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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:49 am

A 2 year old bird dog that LISTENS and RESPONDS???

Boy - you don't know how lucky you are! You have a gem there fella.

You must have done some things right when bringing this dog along, because it likes you and wants to be with you. That is awesome.

Bird dogs are designed to cover ground. My pointers typically cover a whole lot more ground than 3.5:1. In open country, it is closer to 10 to 1. In cover your dog is likely doing a very good job of covering the ground available. I think you and your dog are doing just fine in that department. As far as finding birds while moving...I have seen dogs lock up at the dead run and skid to a stop because they scented a bird while going full speed. The good ones have amazing noses. They WILL find birds.

On things like logging roads, I want my dog to reach out, then head into cover out front, circle back through the cover, cross over the road and head back up through the cover on the opposites side of the road. Then repeat the looping tactic as I walk forward.

Helping your dog to do that is called "patterning". There are ways to do that.

I will echo the other posters and encourage you to "trust" your dog. It is the one with the nose and the one that was bred to hunt. It can be a little disconcerting at first to allow your dog to go out of sight...but that is what you may need to do to allow the dog to hunt will maximum effectiveness, for YOU.

A pointing dog does take some getting used to and you were very smart to get a GPS system...because that tool allows you to give the dog a healthy degree of freedom and independence, while still keeping track of the dog. I encourage you to look at the track of the dog after a run. I think you will find that the dog is indeed circling back to you on a regular basis.

As I said previously there are ways you can "encourage" this type of pattern. Taking your dog for lots of runs is one of the best ways.

The only thing I think you really need to worry about, in terms of range, is if the dog gets on a deer. Chasing deer can take a dog a long way. But the fact that you have a GPS means that even if the dog starts a deer, you know where the dog is and where it is going.

Pointing dogs are the bomb, IMO. They do so many neat things, if you let them. Enjoy.

RayG

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Tooling
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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by Tooling » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:12 am

birddogger2 wrote: Pointing dogs are the bomb, IMO. They do so many neat things, if you let them. Enjoy.
RayG
x10,000

Here's a quick video of a pointer slamming point. That is precisely what I watched a Shorthair do, all day long, the very first time I saw a German Shorthaired Pointer in my life. We bought a pup that day and haven't looked back since..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BQeNERYVco

Shorthairs are wonderful dogs that know their business. Trust your dog and let the dog teach the many things you will learn from her. You'll never regret it.

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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by Tuckerterra » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:27 pm

Tooling wrote:The mere fact your dog will slow it down on your command in the field speaks volumes. Your dog likes you and is showing behavior in the field that clearly shows she wants to please you. Now it's your turn to loosen up the reins a little and begin to trust your dog. Over time you'll find that you can. Too much control at this stage for too long could actually start taking something out of the dog and you may find yourself in the opposite position of trying to push her out..that's a worse problem to have.

Keep her safe and cut her loose a bit..she is a shorthair : ), she's 2, and she has lots of birds on her mind. That's a good thing.
birddogger2 wrote:A 2 year old bird dog that LISTENS and RESPONDS???

Boy - you don't know how lucky you are! You have a gem there fella.

You must have done some things right when bringing this dog along, because it likes you and wants to be with you. That is awesome. RayG
Well that makes me feel good. I don't always feel she listens as well as she should but then I talk to someone that has a dog of similar breed and they tell me she responds and deciplines like an older GSP would. I explained to one feller how one of my pigeons could walk around 2 feet in front of her and If I had given her the "WOAH" command she wouldn't make a move towards one. He was astonished and said his pup would never had listened like that at a young age. So thanks for the Compliments! Ive never been around many GSPs, not to mention young ones so I don't know what to expect.
birddogger2 wrote:Bird dogs are designed to cover ground. My pointers typically cover a whole lot more ground than 3.5:1. In open country, it is closer to 10 to 1. In cover your dog is likely doing a very good job of covering the ground available. I think you and your dog are doing just fine in that department. As far as finding birds while moving...I have seen dogs lock up at the dead run and skid to a stop because they scented a bird while going full speed. The good ones have amazing noses. They WILL find birds.

On things like logging roads, I want my dog to reach out, then head into cover out front, circle back through the cover, cross over the road and head back up through the cover on the opposites side of the road. Then repeat the looping tactic as I walk forward.

Helping your dog to do that is called "patterning". There are ways to do that.

I will echo the other posters and encourage you to "trust" your dog. It is the one with the nose and the one that was bred to hunt. It can be a little disconcerting at first to allow your dog to go out of sight...but that is what you may need to do to allow the dog to hunt will maximum effectiveness, for YOU.

A pointing dog does take some getting used to and you were very smart to get a GPS system...because that tool allows you to give the dog a healthy degree of freedom and independence, while still keeping track of the dog. I encourage you to look at the track of the dog after a run. I think you will find that the dog is indeed circling back to you on a regular basis.

As I said previously there are ways you can "encourage" this type of pattern. Taking your dog for lots of runs is one of the best ways.

The only thing I think you really need to worry about, in terms of range, is if the dog gets on a deer. Chasing deer can take a dog a long way. But the fact that you have a GPS means that even if the dog starts a deer, you know where the dog is and where it is going.

Pointing dogs are the bomb, IMO. They do so many neat things, if you let them. Enjoy.

RayG

I certainly trust her not to take off on me, even without the GPS. She wears a Tri-Tronics e-collar anytime she isn't inside for the simple reason we trained her at as a pup that if she hears the collar's tone, she is to come back to us. No matter where, or what she is doing. I must say, it is about the best thing shes been taught because anytime I tone her, no matter if we are hiking, training, hunting, or she is simply out in the back 40 exploring, she comes running.

I never worry about her going too far away either. When we are hunting she normally comes and checks my location fairly often, and then heads back out.

I do love the GPS for the piece of mind and its pretty awesome to get the "Point" notification. Its also great to see the ground she has covered and areas she might have missed.

Windyhills wrote:Normal IMO, as is bumping birds at that age. Still pretty young. The popular advice is usually to keep working--on wild birds especially, as you can--and let the birds teach the dog.

I think that's ultimately what needs to happen but think you can help move the process along with training using birds in a way that gets them a bit more cautious. I'd wait until after this wild bird season to try that though given the age of your pup.

Grouse can take some time to figure out, IMO that's even more true with versatile breeds that have a lot of prey drive as many do. Have you worked your pup on woodcock? I think that can help too.

Does it dive into both sides of the trail and go back and forth or primarily run the trails with you? If it doesn't work and get off the trail I'd start leaving the trail while hunting myself.
Thanks for the advice! She actually does do a pretty good job going up the road and then working on one side of the road and then jumping over to the other side of the road. Of course that is until she gets tired, and then she gets pretty lazy and just trots up the road, but that takes a while to get to that point.
Tooling wrote:
birddogger2 wrote: Pointing dogs are the bomb, IMO. They do so many neat things, if you let them. Enjoy.
RayG
x10,000

Here's a quick video of a pointer slamming point. That is precisely what I watched a Shorthair do, all day long, the very first time I saw a German Shorthaired Pointer in my life. We bought a pup that day and haven't looked back since..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BQeNERYVco

Shorthairs are wonderful dogs that know their business. Trust your dog and let the dog teach the many things you will learn from her. You'll never regret it.
That is a pretty impressive video!! I have seen my pup running quite fast...then all of a sudden lock up and skid to a stop and point. I just always felt she was too close to the bird at that point because she was running, but I guess after reading all this from you guys she is completely normal :lol:

birddogger2
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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:12 pm

Tuckerterra -

Your dog is NOT completely normal. If she is doing the things you say she is...at 2 years of age...she is special. Believe it. You got a keeper there.

Keep doing what you are doing and the birds should teach your girl most of what else she needs to know.

If you have ANY questions... ASK... just ask. On the board or via private message. I am sure I am not the only one who would be glad to help you get the most out of your dog.

RayG

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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by porochi » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:23 am

Your GSP sounds like mine, also 2. He hunts very fast and has spooked birds who then flushed well out of range. I tend to let him just do his wild run thing for the first 30 minutes of so of the hunt, he'll usually settle down and start hunting seriously and closer, after that, but when we first start out, he's been in the crate for a long drive and he's about to pop he's so excited to get out and run. After 30 minutes or so of his crazy running around I'll nick him a bit on the E-collar if he's still ranging far ahead and causing birds to flush out of range before he can get set on point.

I hunt mostly wild pheasant in KS. Sometimes those birds will bail out of the end of the field as soon as you set foot on the other side, no matter how carefully you approach. So hey, he's gonna kick up some birds well out of range just because they know there's something scary that's entered the field and is coming their way. I don't care how well-trained the dog is,on wild birds they get a vote too, and sometimes that has us watching a dozen or so wing off from 300 yards away right after we enter a field. The dogs haven't even had a chance to do anything wrong and wild flush a bird. That's why it's called hunting, not shopping.

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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:46 pm

Sounds like a normal young dog. It may overrun it's nose from time to time but it will learn from it
Cass
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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:05 am

I completely agree with the above. Pups have to learn by experience how to best find and point game. I always expect a pup to bump up birds as they are learning this.

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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:54 pm

I agree with most here. Speed on wild birds especially is an asset. The only time this can be a detriment is when trialers of short-tails push hard for run. In this regard, I have seen dogs "out-run their noses" on occasion.
I don't believe this is the case with you/your dog.
Your dog will learn from the experiences you provide. Allow him to make mistakes as well as being there to support/direct him as required.
Sounds like you have the makings of a wonderful bird dog. Congrats!

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Re: Is my GSP hunting too fast?

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:15 pm

I don't think most dogs will outrun their nose. Seriously, they can process scent incredibly well! Way better than we give them credit for.

Anyway, here are a list of factors that may lead a dog to overrun their noise despite what I said (and anyone can feel free to amend list list since these are observations):
1. Inexperienced dog (honestly I think it's less of overrunning the nose and more of not knowing how much room to give wild birds)
2. Hot conditions which lead to heavy mouth breathing
3. Running with the wind/not getting downwind (this is where the handler comes in)

I thought I had more but my brain stopped. So there you go.
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