Setter tracking birds

veggie
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Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:52 am

Hi, i've had a hard time getting my setter together. We are not allowed e-collars in Norway, and he is livestock chasing, thus I have to wait for certified personel to electrocute him in order to get a certificate to bring him out in the field. However, some areas we are allowed to, and I observe the following: when he picks up scent of birds been running on ground he starts sniffing and tracking the ground until the birds flies away, then he starts the chase, as he believes this is the point.

He has been sightpointing a few birds when on walks, like seagulls, but is really unsteady. I wonder if this tracking will dissapear on its own or if there is something I should do right now to remedy this? I find it rather difficult on another aspect, as he does this with tweety birds, ducks, well all kind of birds. Even the moose he tracks. Any tips?

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Sharon » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:11 pm

Welcome. :) How old is your dog?
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:27 am

The dog is 19 months of age. As mentioned he has little experience with real game due to his chasing livestock habits. I'm working on getting that remedied and hope to have fixed it completely this season. I'm wondering whether the tracking stuff is a maturity problem or not? Also he sometimes creeps up on tweety birds.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:55 am

. I wonder if this is a maturity problem and will solve itself with experience on wild game or if I should do anything to correct this?

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by DonF » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:46 am

Around livestock, take him on a leash and correct him every time he shows interest. I don't have a problem with live stock or even chickens. My dog's have been raised around them since the day they came home. Your dog is early on training to point, for most it' doesn't just one day show up, you have to work at it a bit. The sea gulls are showing you where to go with this, he's flash pointing! He's doing that because he want's to catch them and trying to figure out how to keep them from flying away, use that to your advantage. Don't know how you intend on moving forward but I always recommend remote traps. They give you control of the bird. I'd rather be able to control the bird than the dog! If you don't use remote's, you really do need a helper. You move the dog into where you want it, down wind and not to close and not to far from the bird but the dog clearly indicating it smells it. You stop the dog there and control it right there while a helper flush's the bird. If you can find it, my bible on training a bird dg is, "The Best Way to train Your Dog- The Delmar Smith Method" x Bill Tarrant. Bill was a writer but also a bird dog fan. The secret to it for me is that he get's all the point's across very well. I haven't read the newer version. I understand they went from the whoa post to the flank collar. I have never tried the flank collar and won't, the whoa post works far to well. You might be able to find it on Amazon, I'll go look. Yes it it there. It will be the original as it has a date of 1977. It's $40.07 + shipping.
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:39 pm

I understand planted birds are the way to go around here, and I really understand why as it gives you total control of what happens. However, they are not that easy to come by, and requires me to do a lot in order to get hold of them. I was hoping this was a problem that would fix itself somehow by experience, as he never catches the birds. I wouldn't exactly call it blinking, but he is more creeping up on the birds as he thinks he can catch them. And as said, he is inexperienced in real game as we fail to find them outside the livestock areas around here.

When it comes to livestock it takes time to habituate him to them as we don't have them outside our door, and I can't take my time every day to walk past them.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Sharon » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:37 pm

"I wouldn't exactly call it blinking, but he is more creeping up on the birds as he thinks he can catch them...." quote Veggie

This is how many of us train our pointing gun dogs. The dog starts to creep and learns he can't catch them so starts to point and hold SOME. The birds teach the initial lessons.
At this point you need birds- preferably hard flying pigeons and a check cord .... no more chasing . A launcher can help at this point, but is not essential imo. Just need to learn how to dizzy pigeons.
Where I live it is easy to get a hold of hard flying pigeons , but I have heard this is not the case in many of the States.

PS This is all assuming you don't have an abundance of wild birds at your disposal.
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:04 am

The thing is, i do have a ton of wild game around me, but the dog has a thing for sheep which also reside in the sees. Not many, but enough for him to chase them and will probably be shot by the farmer. Next week i do have some e-collar time with a trainer, and i hope it will remedy this problem. Then i guess it’s check cord time for this fall.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:08 am

So there was little interest in my topic. However, I've been out and about and finally gotten myself around to live birds. There is still no pointing, however I can clearly see him scenting the bird as he turns around and moves towards the birds and they fly away, with him chasing them. Now he is 20 months old, and if possible I will want to go trough more live birds with him. Only thing is, I don't know if this will fix the not pointing problem.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Sharon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:29 pm

What ?? The main page says you got 8 replies , and yet there are none here. Something weird happened. Hopefully you'll get some more help here.
.................

20 months old and not pointing. I'd be concerned too. All you can do is keep exposing him to birds - wild if possible.
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:44 am

You have my sympathy Veggie. In Scotland where e- collars are also banned, dogs still do chase sheep ! We have had to fall back on older, not so nice to use, "traditional methods." I had dogs long before e-collars became available and my very first dog, a border collie, did chase sheep but she only did it once for I caught her and gave her the father and mother of a hiding ! She was still less than a year old at the time and , in normal circumstances , far too young for that kind of treatment . Nevertheless, she did not ever chase sheep again and I thought that the physical abuse she got, there are no other words for it, saved her from being shot by some angry farmer.

I think a young dog can be stopped from chasing sheep but by the time they reach 20 months and are already confirmed chasers they become much harder to stop. I usually begin to discourage pups from chasing sheep by taking the pups near sheep from the time they are 3 months old and are still forming their opinions on the world in general. I verbally and, if necessary , I physically correct the pups if they so much as look at a sheep.

This works with most pups but not with all. Some pups just have to chase …..and then be corrected for it. The last time I corrected a dog for sheep chasing without using an e-collar was about 20 years ago. The dog was a golden retriever bitch belonging to an old lady . She could not catch the bitch but I did and again I gave her a hiding she'd never forget ….and she never chased sheep again !

I have had pups/dogs that with no deliberate training whatsoever still take no interest at all in sheep . Individual dogs have individual ideas on the subject of sheep.

I can easily see why not being able to take your dog out where is game around is now giving you a big problem. I do expect a pup to point and hold a point long before it has reached 20 months of age. In a sense ,you have "missed the boat." That "boat" is the very formative early months of a pup's life when you can take it out into the countryside among both birds and sheep to allow it to chase the birds but not allow it to chase livestock before the pup has become fully self confident. If that very early hunting is done most pups will not go too far from you. By the time they are a bit older and more confident in themselves they will already be accustomed to including you in their hunts.

I very much hope the "specialist" e-collar operative cure works for you because doing anti-sheep chasing "training" can be a very traumatic experience for both you and the dog if you have to use the old fashioned methods !
I tend to use only wild birds to encourage my dogs to hunt and point. The very young pups do tend to snuffle about on old scents etc. but that soon diminishes once they have found the source of the footscent a few times. They then hunt the wind and not the footscent.

Few if any of my pups would ever do more than sight point on "bleep" birds etc. if I could not hunt them on wild birds. The birds train the pups far more than I do.

I think you are correct in putting an e-collar on your dog for everything hinges on stopping the sheep chasing and then hunting your dog on birds.


Best of luck,

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by JONOV » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:08 am

Do you have launchers available where you are? Or kick traps with a string?

Plant the launcher/trap and when he starts to get more intense remove release the bird to fly away. Hopefully that will develop the stop at point.

If you can take a video on your cell phone that might be helpful too.

The chasing the bird is natural.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:07 am

Trekmoor wrote:snip
Thank you for taking your time for such a long reply to my issues. So we have now been out and about for three whole days, and we then wen't into several birds, alas, there was no point. However, what he does I think, is when finding scent, he is looking for the birds footprint, to track them down.

I had plenty of opportunities to bring him out, and will have this fall as well, once they bring the livestock inside. I've been to a different part of the country these days with the sole purpose of training the dog on wild birds. I also notice his search pattern is bad, almost looking like we are just out on a hike... his GPS collar tells me he at the most is about 60 meters out, if not chasing wild game that is. This tells me he hasn't really woken up yet, and I partly blame dog trainers around where I live for that. Most tells me I have to wait to take him out until I can stop him from chasing game, but chasing game seems like the most fun he ever has. He even gives me the look which tells me he knows he is in trouble for chasing, but it is too much fun to stop.

The race I've chosen is known to be notoriously late at waking up with its hunting instincts, and maybe it is just a maturity problem, however I've come into contact with someone which is willing to help me with an e-collar come april next year should things not fix itself.

What I do wonder however, what kind of amount of game exposure is normal for a dog before they start showing pointing tendencies?

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by shags » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:05 am

I also had a setter that was very slow to figure out pointing. He loved the chase, and did not limit it to flushed birds...he chased anything overhead including vultures, crows, and airplanes. He chased rabbits and deer. If it fled, he chased it. He even tried to chase fish in the lake.

Some dogs don't have as much point as others. Some have lots more chase than other dogs. It's part of training to sort it out.

Over here, we have the option of ecollar use, so trashbreaking off deer was easy and quick. I hope your certified ecollar person jas success. IME it's far superior to the old time method of beating the snot out of the dog. The other stuff, we got under control with training the dog to "leave it." Maybe you can arrange for your dog to "meet" some cattle and sheep so that you can apply some discipline to his interest, and maybe even luck out with an ornery specimen giving him what for.

This dog of mine needed some help with pointing; he needed to learn that he shouldn't just rush in but should stop on scent. We used common pigeons and/or pen-raised game birds and a check cord on the dog. Once he figured out that game contact had rules, he flipped the switch and pointed on his own. IIRC, my dog was about 2 years old when we gave up on natural point and gave him some lessons. It took time and patience, but the end result was worth it. There were occasional times when the dog's desire to chase overrode his pointing, but overall he showed immense improvement.

Good luck going forward.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:28 pm

shags wrote:snip

Good luck going forward.
Thank you for good wishes. The e-collar was deemed successful by the trainer, as he was afraid of the sheeps inside the pen. Now there is only the raindeer left and we're all good to go, at least without him being shot by some farmer. As mentioned earlier I think there is more underlying all of this, as he is not searching properly for game either, and I often find him looking for mice and lemmings, which there are plenty of around here.

His interest for birds however are there, as he'll happily chase anything, including birds, just like yours. However, his interest in game birds are more intense than tweety birds and other birds. I might try to get some time at some trainer, to see how it will fare.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:00 pm

The amount of game exposure needed to persuade a pup to point varies a lot from dog to dog. I've had a couple of pups that began to point after as few as 6 -10 birds had been found and chased. With that sort of pup they have very quickly come to realise that they cannot and will not catch a flying bird. Two of those pups were brittanies and both of them would hunt and hold a point before they were 6 months old with very little input from me . I normally use only the wild birds they find to "train" for a point ….no e-collars and more often than not, no check cord either.

This is not all that unusual here in Britain, many other pointing dog trainers do the same as me with the same success. Most of the pups I've trained have needed somewhere between 20 - 40 finds on birds before they would point (not just flash point or sight point.) A few pups have required more than 40 birds. It does vary a lot from pup to pup but if the point instinct is there strongly enough then I have always been confident that a pup would eventually point . The oldest pup to begin to point I've trained was about 9 months old before she did both point and hold the point for long enough for me to reach her.
She was also the worst pup I ever had for chasing the flying birds, she would chase for as long as she could still see the bird !

With her I sort of "sickened" her off from chasing by taking her onto a very long and sandy/muddy beach then just standing back for about an hour while she completely exhausted herself chasing the seagulls and the wading birds back and forth all along the beach.
She eventually returned to me, drank from a sea-water pool then vomited all over the place ! It was "tough love" but with her it worked. Her lust for chasing was considerably diminished. It diminished enough for me to at last get her to obey the stop whistle !

From then on everything went very well and she became a pretty good and very easily controlled gundog.

There are a couple of things in your post Veggie that cause me some concern. One of them is ---- how well does your dog respond to the Stop whistle ? With a dog that really likes to chase it is better, I.M.O., to train the dog to stop/sit/drop as if it's legs had been chopped off ! No leeway should be given in the dog's response to whistle time.
If you have that means of control then it can be added to the "aversive training" you do with the e-collar if the dog chases sheep.

A problem you may encounter if the aversive training is done on one group of sheep in a field or paddock is that this may not work in other situations. You would have to "generalize " that aversion training to include sheep on moorlands and among light woodlands. Dogs often do not generalize very well ! It is a bit like the trainee folk I've had who say , following a failure of their dogs to understand an exercise.... that ...."He does it fine in the garden !" - - - - - Famous last words ! :roll:

You mentioned Moose in your posts ? We don't have them in Scotland ...unless you believe Rabbie Burns ! :lol: We do have various kinds of deer though and it is likely that your dog will chase them too . I have owned deer chasing dogs but once I'd got those dogs to stop on sheep AND added a really good stop to whistle onto that then I could also stop the deer chases.


The other thing in your posts that troubled me a bit was your reference to your dogs breeding. If I knew that pups from certain "lines" were likely to be very slow maturers where pointing is concerned then I simply would not buy from those lines .I am not very experienced with the setter breeds but the very few English, Irish, Irish Red and Whites and Gordon setters I have had a hand in training all pointed long before they were 20 months old ....some of them had won field trials by that age.


That's not much help to you now but it may help you avoid getting the same problem again when you eventually get around to buying another pup. If you do get another pup, begin taking it out among game much earlier than you seem to have done and persuade it to include you in it's hunts. It worked for me in similar circumstances to yours, that is, a game supply but no e-collar.


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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:38 am

Trekmoor wrote:snip...

Bill T.

I appriciate your input on the matter. However regarding his hunting instincts, he is only fooling around like we are on a hike, and he is tagging along. Whenever I turn and walk another way, he jumps in ahead. If he finds something interesting, like animal tracks, he will sniff them for a while.

I've been in touch with a trainer able to help me along with e-collar conditioning the point in the dog, which she tells me has good lasting effect. Until then I will try to put him up into more good situations, maybe on the checkcord whereever I might find a bird. Then we will see how he will fare, if he even will show glimpse of a point.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:27 pm

O.K.--- Where using an e -collar to control a point is concerned ----- ignore this if you already knew it.
If a dog receives a correction while it is moving in to a point or when it has pointed it may ,in future, begin to blink birds /blink the point. There is an old saying that goes - never correct a dog in the presence of game. Personally, I follow that advice whenever I can.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:05 pm

It seems some are having trouble staying on topic and it has become necessary to delete some of their post. This needs to stop or banning may take place which I don't want to take place.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:02 am

This dog has been trouble since the day he entered our house now, and I feel I'm at a wits' end with this. If I can't get him to hunt properly and experience some joy with him I'm through with him. I am also fully aware of the risks by introducing the e-collar in such situations, and I've ensured the trainer has a good pedigree.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:25 am

Something in your original post interested me Veggie. I hadn't realised that in Norway a licence is required before some parts of the countryside can be hunted with a dog. Do the authorities send out someone to check the dog is under good control before giving you the licence ? If not, do you have to sign a questionnaire form saying your dog is under control and will obey " x -y - z" commands ?

I've heard this is what happens in some European countries but at least we don't have that to contend with in Britain !

I hope all goes well for you and your dog but if it does not then I would also do as you have said and replace that dog with another dog/puppy. I'd make sure though that the mistakes I possibly made when choosing which breeder to buy from and my mistakes made in training did not repeat themselves.

Best wishes,

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by gundogguy » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:01 am

Trekmoor wrote:Something in your original post interested me Veggie. I hadn't realised that in Norway a licence is required before some parts of the countryside can be hunted with a dog. Do the authorities send out someone to check the dog is under good control before giving you the licence ? If not, do you have to sign a questionnaire form saying your dog is under control and will obey " x -y - z" commands ?

I've heard this is what happens in some European countries but at least we don't have that to contend with in Britain !




Bill T.
I am familiar with the licensing requirements in say Germany. The Hunter needs to qualify and the dog needs to qualify for one. I could only imagine what would happen to hunter participation numbers if that was the case everywhere.
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:45 am

Hunter participation numbers would drop dramatically if we ran such a scheme in Britain ! :lol:

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Sharon » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:19 am

veggie wrote:This dog has been trouble since the day he entered our house now, and I feel I'm at a wits' end with this. If I can't get him to hunt properly and experience some joy with him I'm through with him. I am also fully aware of the risks by introducing the e-collar in such situations, and I've ensured the trainer has a good pedigree.
You also said in your initial posts that the dog is 20 months old and not pointing at all.

You give a dog your very best efforts, for a more than reasonable amount of time, and then you have to make hard decisions sometimes- without guilt.

AS you may know, I rescue JRTs. Sometimes even after my best efforts,and time, the abuse /poor breeding they received they can not be "fixed" and I need to put them down... ... NOT saying you should be doing this...... just saying hard decisions have to be made sometimes.
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:24 pm

veggie -

It seems you have two separate and distinct problems with this dog.

First is the livestock chasing and I agree that e-collar, followed up by checkcording to proof the dog is probably the best way to fix this. In fact, I would suggest that you start with the checkcording now. I would have pinch or prong collar on the dog and heel it into the meadow where the sheep or livestock are. The instant the dog takes a step toward the stock, pop the cord...HARD... and stop the dog. Make it stand there, not just for a few seconds, but a full minute or more. Then walk directly toward the stock with the dog at heel. ideally the stock will run off as you are walking toward them, tempting the dog to pursue. Then...another correction and the dog stands there and watches the stock move off. If it takes a step...correct.

The second problem is that the dog creeps in. In fact this creeping is related to the dog's desire to chase, but you need to separate it out and correct it differently. I would do heel/whoa drills with the dog so that it understands that whoa means stop...and grow roots. The dog must learn in the yard that any foot motion whatsoever after it has stopped is not acceptable and will be corrected.

Once the dog is reliable in the yard, the lesson needs to be transferred to the field. Same drill, same criteria, but in the field.
Now you can employ the e-collar with this dog. For e-collar usage around birds, it is strongly advised that you place the e-collar around the flank. You can place the prongs under the belly, if it is a female but if it is a male, it might be easier on the dog if you place the prongs on the top of the loin, next to the spine at first.

It has been noticed that stimulation or corrections that come from the head and neck area around birds are likely to cause the dog to avoid birds, especially with higher level stim and softer dogs. I do not know why, but it seems that if the stim or correction comes from the flank area, it does not have the same negative effect. However, the stim on the flank needs to be a VERY low level, since the dog is quite sensitive in that area.

I have a female right now that is quite sensitive and in fact, the e-collar is set on VIBRATE... and that achieves the desired response.
When using the flank as a point of contact...be advised that...less is more. Mosty of the dogs I train do just fine with the collar set on level 1(of 6) and for repeated infractions a level 2. FWIW, I can barely feel a level 1 stim when I place the collar on my own neck.

I have heard various explanations or theories about why the flank stim works, such as the dog thinking it is getting poked with a weed and such. I don't know about that. All I do know is that it works to stop the dog without messing with the dog's mind about birds.

The flank correction is, IMO superior to most of the old fashioned ways I know to stop a dog from creeping. It is especially effective when used in conjunction with a bird in a remote release trap, because you can control ll of the variables and launch the bird and issue a correction simultaneously at precisely the right moment.

I hope some of this is of use to you.


RayG

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:34 am

So we have now been out and about for about 2 weeks. The last week was miserable in the sense as we did not get any training done at all. Unfortunately some of the sheep in the area was not brought inside yet by the farmers. The dog has got the proof of not chasing sheep anymore given by certified personell. However, the dog did not care about that the one time he was on the run this whole week, quickly finding the sheep and start barking at them. Fortunately he was dragging a line, and I could catch him quickly before he could do any harm.

When he gets into this chasing mode, it's like the curtains goes down and he doesn't listen to anything. I've also done as birddogger2 mentions, and corrected him on the leash for even looking at the wrong game, but he does not seem to really care.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:49 am

Sorry to hear about your dog's continued strong interest in sheep. I assume that when the "certified personnel" man used the e-collar your dog stopped chasing the sheep and you therefor got your non-chase certificate ? I.M.O. the e-collar treatment should have been done over several days in several different places . I think your "certified personnel" were being far too optimistic that just one short treatment would be enough to cure your particular dog.

Now you will have to either resort to more old fashioned and more brutal methods which also may not work or get another dog. Personally, I would get another puppy but this time I would begin walking it near sheep as soon as it was over it's inoculations and could be taken outdoors. I would get the pup well used to seeing sheep and ignoring them.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:59 am

Trekmoor wrote:Sorry to hear about your dog's continued strong interest in sheep. I assume that when the "certified personnel" man used the e-collar your dog stopped chasing the sheep and you therefor got your non-chase certificate ? I.M.O. the e-collar treatment should have been done over several days in several different places . I think your "certified personnel" were being far too optimistic that just one short treatment would be enough to cure your particular dog.

Now you will have to either resort to more old fashioned and more brutal methods which also may not work or get another dog. Personally, I would get another puppy but this time I would begin walking it near sheep as soon as it was over it's inoculations and could be taken outdoors. I would get the pup well used to seeing sheep and ignoring them.

Bill T.
The dog has been in sheep training on 3 different occations in order to receive the certificate. First the, chases and gets buzzed several times as he starts to chase again. Next time he figures to stand his ground as the sheeps surrounds him, gets buzzed, but still shows interest in the sheep. Third time he gets in the pen he is terrified of the situation and wants out.

I question their profesionality a great deal, as the three times was at the same farm, but 1st and 3rd time was in the same pen. Also, the sheep used in the exercise was not very frightened of dogs (who would be when you get close to them, they get buzzed?), and also actually followed me around, hindering my dog to come to me as a safe place. Fortunately the instructor of given course will come along with one of his mates sheep in an open meadow, in order to find a more "natural" way of meeting with these wooly "bleep".

On the other hand, I've now come into contact with personell dealing with pidgeons, in order to try to remedy this not pointing stuff, going first time this thursday, and then next thursday. Hopefully this fall will bring something back on track, and at least the winter season can be fun and games for us both.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:13 am

As I said in an earlier post dogs tend not to generalise very well. That means the e-collar training should have been done in differing places such as fields, moorlands and light woodlands and preferably on different sheep too.
Very occasionally a dog may get completely the wrong idea about why it received the shock. Some years back a friend used an e-collar on one of his dogs to give the dog an aversion to sheep. He told me later that the dog still chased sheep but not in that particular field. Then when the sheep were removed from the field the dog point blank refused to leave his side in that field. His particular dog had been trained to have an aversion to that field and not to the sheep ! His dog had decided the "place" was the cause of the aversion shock it had received !

It took a few more e-collar treatments as the dog chased sheep in various locations before that dog finally linked the sheep to the shock.
The reason why I am particularly sympathetic to your problem is that because I live in Scotland where the e-collar is now also banned, I now have a similar problem to you. I am trying to train an 8 -9 months old GSP pup not to chase and cannot use a collar to do that.
I , so far, have no problems with him chasing the pheasants he finds but he has chased a hare and I'm pretty sure he would chase sheep too.
Unlike you however, Scotland has no provision made for "certified personnel" to use an e-collar on sheep chasers , the ban on e-collars is a complete one..... I will have to try to do things the hard way with no certainty of success.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:04 am

I went through some of this again and can't find it. What breed of dog are we talking about?

To me the problem with pointing seem's very simple. Your dog will point but is sure it can catch the birds for whatever reason and the birds are allowing the dog to creep in on them. With the remote trap and pigeons the bird no longer decides how close to allow the dog to approach, you do. Simple here, soon as the dog makes game, pop the bird. If the dog come's within 10 or 15 feet up wind of the bird, pop the bird. Doesn't not matter he won't scent the bird what does matter is that he will bump wild birds like that so you have to do the same thing. The dog need's taught that it's it's movement that flush's the bird, no way can he catch it. With your dog, don't fool around seeing how long he'll point or seeing if you can coax him to move, get in there and shoot the bird for him. Once he's sure he's gonna get the bird if he waits, he'll wait a bit longer. Keep in mind, what your dog want's is the bird. Your job is to teach him how to get it. In the end, what you expect and what he get's become's the same thing!
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:40 am

Veggie mentioned that he has a setter, I believe.
The livestock chasing is being addressed as far as I can tell. The e-collar will do it's job in the right hands. The environment and type of stock must also change, as already mentioned. Dogs, by nature, are terrible generalists but very fine discriminators. Funny how "Fido" can lay peacefully on the couch next to you but the moment he hears your wife approaching, he pops off the couch looking innocent! Hmmm.....?
It's too bad you didn't get this dog "into birds" 12 months ago but that is history. Today, your dog needs birds - lots of wild or STRONG free flying birds, like pigeons. The less conduit there is connecting humans/training (as in launchers/kick cages, tethers, etc.), the better. Done properly, as Sharon alluded, whether it takes 10 pigeons or 100 pigeons your dog WILL point, minus the "whoa" verbiage. The steadiness process is another ensuing chapter. Your dog isn't there, yet.
Sometimes, a slow developing dog is the result of a lack of foundational learning opportunities. Most dogs that develop their passion for birds will displace livestock or rate them much lower in their spectrum of interest anyway.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:07 am

Featherfinder wrote:Veggie mentioned that he has a setter, I believe.
The livestock chasing is being addressed as far as I can tell. The e-collar will do it's job in the right hands. The environment and type of stock must also change, as already mentioned. Dogs, by nature, are terrible generalists but very fine discriminators. Funny how "Fido" can lay peacefully on the couch next to you but the moment he hears your wife approaching, he pops off the couch looking innocent! Hmmm.....?
It's too bad you didn't get this dog "into birds" 12 months ago but that is history. Today, your dog needs birds - lots of wild or STRONG free flying birds, like pigeons. The less conduit there is connecting humans/training (as in launchers/kick cages, tethers, etc.), the better. Done properly, as Sharon alluded, whether it takes 10 pigeons or 100 pigeons your dog WILL point, minus the "whoa" verbiage. The steadiness process is another ensuing chapter. Your dog isn't there, yet.
Sometimes, a slow developing dog is the result of a lack of foundational learning opportunities. Most dogs that develop their passion for birds will displace livestock or rate them much lower in their spectrum of interest anyway.
This is my first dog ever, and I've encountered a lot of newbie mistakes with this one. Things will be done differently in the future, as he was introduced to livestock before he was collar conditioned and then had happy times chasing livestock at an early age. This problem directly relates to his bird experiences, as he couldn't be around in the field where the birds are, because of livestock. Also, professional trainers were all saying I should steady him on their pigeons, in their training fields, for money... And whatever I do, do not release him to chase wild birds as that will have the opposite effect of pointing.

Guess I've learned a thing or two. Get the first encounter with livestock a bad one, and give a lot of experiences with birds early on. His hunting instincts are quite good, as he is really birdy. Not steady in the point though (tried on pigeons). I'm as we speak working on getting him livestock clean, which is a hassle and expenssive.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by shags » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:38 am

OP, thank you for clarifying your situation.

You mention that pros suggest you let them work your dog, but that you don't want to pay for something you think perhaps you can do yourself.

IMO paying someone might be the most economical way to go. Pros have the grounds, the equipment, the birds, and most of all, the knowlege to get the dog properly started. Training bird dogs isn't rocket science, but it can be overwhelming particularly for someone who hasn't owned any type of dog before. Really, as a very novice owner, one might not even know the very basics of dog behavior, let alone how to develop a bird dog.

In previous posts, it seems like you are already frustrated and disgusted with your dog. It seems like you don't know what to do, and the dog has no idea of what you expect it to do. This isn't your fault, you're just a newbie to this. Perhaps you could contact a pro trainer and let him/her take a look at the dog and see what needs to be done, and give you an idea for moving forward.

I don't know how it goes where you are, but over here, it isn't unusual for a pro to take a dog for a month or two, get it started, then work with the owner. For example, with my first competition dogs, a pro did the first part of all the work, then I was able to see what/when/why/how everything was done, then work the dogs on that stuff, then the pro took them to the next steps, and I followed up, etc. The biggest advantage was being able to observe many dogs in the pro's kennel, so I could see good work, poor work, normal behavior, abnormal behavior, and compare the dogs to understand which level my dogs needed to attain. Those lessons allowed me to be a better trainer for subsequent dogs.

We all start at the beginning, and everyone has a different learning curve. IMO you can stick it out yourself and most likely not develop this dog to its fullest potential ( which isn't a crime by any means, but could be a waste of time, effort, money, and dog) or you can seek professional help to help you get started and be happier with your dog.

Best wishes going forward, good luck to you and your dog.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:06 pm

shags wrote:OP, thank you for clarifying your situation.

You mention that pros suggest you let them work your dog, but that you don't want to pay for something you think perhaps you can do yourself.

IMO paying someone might be the most economical way to go. Pros have the grounds, the equipment, the birds, and most of all, the knowlege to get the dog properly started. Training bird dogs isn't rocket science, but it can be overwhelming particularly for someone who hasn't owned any type of dog before. Really, as a very novice owner, one might not even know the very basics of dog behavior, let alone how to develop a bird dog.

In previous posts, it seems like you are already frustrated and disgusted with your dog. It seems like you don't know what to do, and the dog has no idea of what you expect it to do. This isn't your fault, you're just a newbie to this. Perhaps you could contact a pro trainer and let him/her take a look at the dog and see what needs to be done, and give you an idea for moving forward.

I don't know how it goes where you are, but over here, it isn't unusual for a pro to take a dog for a month or two, get it started, then work with the owner. For example, with my first competition dogs, a pro did the first part of all the work, then I was able to see what/when/why/how everything was done, then work the dogs on that stuff, then the pro took them to the next steps, and I followed up, etc. The biggest advantage was being able to observe many dogs in the pro's kennel, so I could see good work, poor work, normal behavior, abnormal behavior, and compare the dogs to understand which level my dogs needed to attain. Those lessons allowed me to be a better trainer for subsequent dogs.

We all start at the beginning, and everyone has a different learning curve. IMO you can stick it out yourself and most likely not develop this dog to its fullest potential ( which isn't a crime by any means, but could be a waste of time, effort, money, and dog) or you can seek professional help to help you get started and be happier with your dog.

Best wishes going forward, good luck to you and your dog.
I'am sure it would be for my own, and my dogs best to be started by a professional trainer. And yes, for a long time I seriously considered it as well. The price was putting me off, as they charge a rather large sum here for training. At 2k dollar for 2 weeks it was more money then I have at the moment, and I didn't feel comfortable using that amount of money at the time. For a whole month it would've been 4k which is close to my monthly salary. For single hour sessions they charge 60 dollars for each session, which is doable.

At the moment the financial situation is changing and I'm willing to spend more money in getting the dog back in order again. The dog will probably hang around for now, come next fall and there is no improvement in the situation I'm giving up.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by shags » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:24 pm

Whoa, that's a lot of money! My trainer gets 1/8 of that per month. Go with the hourly a few times if you can. Ask for a proper introduction to birds, and see if the trainer can run the dog on a few birds to see if he will find/point. The trainer, if it's an honest one, will tell you which direction to go next.

Give up if you must, but IMO it isn't really fair to the dog. He wasn't started correctly, he isn't being developed correctly, he has little to no opportunity to get things right, all this isn't his fault. I seriously doubt if any dog, even the most talented, could flourish in this situation. It might could only just trade one problem for another IME.

Sincere best wishes that things turn positive for both you and the dog.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:12 pm

shags wrote:Whoa, that's a lot of money! My trainer gets 1/8 of that per month. Go with the hourly a few times if you can. Ask for a proper introduction to birds, and see if the trainer can run the dog on a few birds to see if he will find/point. The trainer, if it's an honest one, will tell you which direction to go next.

Give up if you must, but IMO it isn't really fair to the dog. He wasn't started correctly, he isn't being developed correctly, he has little to no opportunity to get things right, all this isn't his fault. I seriously doubt if any dog, even the most talented, could flourish in this situation. It might could only just trade one problem for another IME.

Sincere best wishes that things turn positive for both you and the dog.
Pjuh, this have been an eventfull day. First off we went into the woods in order to remedy the livestock chasing problem, we are to retest this in two weeks time to see whether it has taken any effect. This time he stopped immediately after one shock.

Later we went into pigeons, trying to force a point on pigeons hid in a launcher. When he got out of the car be instantly knew something were up, and were reckless, me trying to heel him into the right direction he kept pulling all the time (the instructor told me not to command him anymore). We saw quite quickly when he discovered the pigeon in the trap, and I was instructed to hold him back, stop him and praise for standing still. The dog however, wanted it different after few seconds, and tried to lunge in.

I question the methods used in the course, and the instructor told me to get rid of the dog. I talked with another instructor, highly regarded one around here, which told me I could take lessons at his place, and come whenever I wanted to train with his pigeons, doing stuff he has instructed me to do. For a much less price than previously mentioned, and I think I will try to go down that route.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:28 am

Trekmoor wrote:The amount of game exposure needed to persuade a pup to point varies a lot from dog to dog. I've had a couple of pups that began to point after as few as 6 -10 birds had been found and chased. With that sort of pup they have very quickly come to realise that they cannot and will not catch a flying bird. Two of those pups were brittanies and both of them would hunt and hold a point before they were 6 months old with very little input from me . I normally use only the wild birds they find to "train" for a point ….no e-collars and more often than not, no check cord either.

This is not all that unusual here in Britain, many other pointing dog trainers do the same as me with the same success. Most of the pups I've trained have needed somewhere between 20 - 40 finds on birds before they would point (not just flash point or sight point.) A few pups have required more than 40 birds. It does vary a lot from pup to pup but if the point instinct is there strongly enough then I have always been confident that a pup would eventually point . The oldest pup to begin to point I've trained was about 9 months old before she did both point and hold the point for long enough for me to reach her.
She was also the worst pup I ever had for chasing the flying birds, she would chase for as long as she could still see the bird !

With her I sort of "sickened" her off from chasing by taking her onto a very long and sandy/muddy beach then just standing back for about an hour while she completely exhausted herself chasing the seagulls and the wading birds back and forth all along the beach.
She eventually returned to me, drank from a sea-water pool then vomited all over the place ! It was "tough love" but with her it worked. Her lust for chasing was considerably diminished. It diminished enough for me to at last get her to obey the stop whistle !

From then on everything went very well and she became a pretty good and very easily controlled gundog.

There are a couple of things in your post Veggie that cause me some concern. One of them is ---- how well does your dog respond to the Stop whistle ? With a dog that really likes to chase it is better, I.M.O., to train the dog to stop/sit/drop as if it's legs had been chopped off ! No leeway should be given in the dog's response to whistle time.
If you have that means of control then it can be added to the "aversive training" you do with the e-collar if the dog chases sheep.

A problem you may encounter if the aversive training is done on one group of sheep in a field or paddock is that this may not work in other situations. You would have to "generalize " that aversion training to include sheep on moorlands and among light woodlands. Dogs often do not generalize very well ! It is a bit like the trainee folk I've had who say , following a failure of their dogs to understand an exercise.... that ...."He does it fine in the garden !" - - - - - Famous last words ! :roll:

You mentioned Moose in your posts ? We don't have them in Scotland ...unless you believe Rabbie Burns ! :lol: We do have various kinds of deer though and it is likely that your dog will chase them too . I have owned deer chasing dogs but once I'd got those dogs to stop on sheep AND added a really good stop to whistle onto that then I could also stop the deer chases.


The other thing in your posts that troubled me a bit was your reference to your dogs breeding. If I knew that pups from certain "lines" were likely to be very slow maturers where pointing is concerned then I simply would not buy from those lines .I am not very experienced with the setter breeds but the very few English, Irish, Irish Red and Whites and Gordon setters I have had a hand in training all pointed long before they were 20 months old ....some of them had won field trials by that age.


That's not much help to you now but it may help you avoid getting the same problem again when you eventually get around to buying another pup. If you do get another pup, begin taking it out among game much earlier than you seem to have done and persuade it to include you in it's hunts. It worked for me in similar circumstances to yours, that is, a game supply but no e-collar.


Bill T.
I must again thank everybody for their input on the matter. And I often come back to the thread to go through the tips again and again. I was curious how you would train absolute obedience on the whistle for distances where e-collar is not an option.

Usually he is a good boy, and comes back to me on the recall whenever I call him, but some places, like close to home he doesn't want to end the walk, and doesn't respond to the recall. Some trainers tell me a dog can only remember for 2 seconds, and a physical correction is out of the question is then out of the question as there is no chance I can get to him in that time.

This is also the issue presented with game, wild animals etc.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by DonF » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:43 am

Ya know, earlier I though you said you didn't have access to birds yet couple post's ago you said you put or the trainer put the dog on pigeon's in a release trap? If the trainer can get pigeons so can you! As for the release trap, get the remote ones. The kick traps with a string attached, don't waste your time. The string is there because you don't trust the dog! What are you gonna do? Stand around holding the string until the dog get's close? Maybe check cord the dog to the trap but what happens if the dog stop's where getting to the string create's a problem? Get the remote release traps! Right now I have the Lion Country traps and they have been working fine for over ten years, by far the least expensive I could find. You can get them off the internet! You need to control the situation and your not coming close! Trap and pigeon's. Lot of people want nothing to do with pigeons, they claim they don't hunt pigeons! The dog on the other hand can't tell the difference between a game bird and a pigeon until you teach it the difference. You turn the pigeon into a training bird and it in time will lose interest! Get a quail that smells like a pheasant and train the dog on quail and it will still point the one that doesn't smell right! Your not teaching the dog the difference in the birds but rather what to do when the bird, any bird is encountered. Something I've noticed over the years is that dog's that get abused by porcupine's generally point the thing first! That cannot smell like a bird!

On chasing livestock, doesn't surprise me if it only does do it for the trainer. Get away from the trainer and it's away from the collar. It's called collar wise! It appears to me that the trainer is to soft with the collar to break the dog off live stock. In this country lot's of people break dog's off snakes with the collar, it is brutal but it does break the dog. Problem is it appears to need doing every year. My guess as to why is that the dog's actually don't run into that many snakes during a season. All the years I've had dogs, I only had one that would point snakes and it was also the only one that pointed rattler's and then, only one time. Correction, I did have Squirt bit by one several years ago. How it happened I haven't a clue, he was out of sight when it happened. I think that the problem of the handler being out of sight so much it why snake breaking needs to be brutal. That way the chance's of the dog ignoring the fact that it doesn't have the collar on seem's to go away. On the down side, you can't take the dog past the problem animal one time and expect to fix the dog, ain't gonna happen. The dog needs convinced that it is not worth taking the chance weather it knows the collar is there or not!

About e-collar's in this country. Many people that have them never run their dog without one. The desired effect is obtained because the collar is always there, the dog know's it and correction can be given immediately if needed. In your case that is not true! Apparently only a trainer has one and the only time it come's into play is at the trainer's. So the dog is made collar wise unintentionally! Then you have a problem. So if you want the animal chasing to work from the trainer the trainer is going to need to get really hard on the dog that pays any attention to say the sheep. And very likely that the dog may need a brush up next year!

There's a down side to this, you have a setter? Well many setter's tend to be very soft and they don't take the heavy hand well at all. That could ruin the dog for you. Then there are the hard but soft setter's. They are soft to handle but can be hardheaded on training. worst of both worlds. With the rule's you have in our country, I would not suggest a setter especially to a first timer. There are much more forgiving breeds!
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:27 am

It has been a while since my last post. The dog has now turned 2 years old and we are closing in on the end of the season up here. We have been trying our best to find wild grouse for him to point, but high snow levels makes it difficult to move around. We have found some, and he usually creeps up to them, sometimes bumping them straight up and gives a chase, and sometimes he holds a point for 5-20 seconds before he decides to go in. Mostly he chase gets cut short due to the amount of snow we have this year. As a first time dog owner I find it pleasant he at least does some kind of point, but it is not enough to create huntable situations for me yet. We try to be out 3 times a week where he gets chances to point grouse every time, so I wonder if this is usual behaviour for a 2 year old, will it naturally get better, or should I take actions?

As for the livestock chasing, I've had him at private consultations many times to get him off sheep, seemingly he has grown a lack of interest in them for the time beeing. Reindeer which we have a lot of might still be a problem. Fortunately my family decided to move to a part of the country with less raindeer, so problem might solve itself.

His basic obedience is coming together, but think FF might be the way to go to increase is complience in the moments he wants to "bleep" off.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Sharon » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:49 pm

Really nice to hear back from someone on how things went. We don't get that often here. Thanks. :)
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:28 am

Sharon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:49 pm
Really nice to hear back from someone on how things went. We don't get that often here. Thanks. :)
Well yes, persistent as I am I keep bringing him outdoors on wild birds. The last few weeks have been miserable though. He often points a few seconds before he rushes in to flush and chase, but also sometimes just goes straight in for the flush. I try my best to give him the experience he needs with birds, but seeing there is no real progress in longer points I sometimes wonder if I'm doing the right thing.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:47 am

Veggie: My French Brittany breeder warned me to not expect a lot the first two years. Apparently it is much in the setter breed to mature slowly. She is my first pointing dog (I've been a Lab man for more than fifty years) so can't speak much to that myself but he has been breeding and training them for about twenty-five years so I guess he knows what he's talking about.

I don't know where you are located but if your snow conditions are anything like what we have here in NW Ontario, it would not be a good training scenario in my opinion. Too noisy. Also, trying to train a new dog over grouse is definitely not the best scenario, especially this late in the year. Ruff grouse are by nature very jumpy to start with. Once they've been shot at a few times they become VERY jumpy. And once the snow is on the ground, well forget it! They have lost their camo and they know it. I've always felt a flushing dog that works close gives the best opportunities for that species. I would STRONGLY suggest that you try training that youngster with wild birds that hold better. Pheasants, in my opinion, would be the ticket. The hens in particular tend to hold very well no matter what the time of year or conditions. Ruff grouse are going to bust very quickly more often than not and that will frustrate a young dog learning to point. See how it does working with pheasants. I suspect you'll see a difference.

Edit: My mistake! I just now noticed you are in Norway. Let's see what grouse you may be referring to ... probably hazel grouse or black grouse? Not ruff grouse obviously. I have no idea how spooky those birds might be but I suspect this late in the year with snow on the ground you'd be looking at the same degree of nervousness. It does appear some locales have pheasants so you might want to see if you can work your dog up on them. Good luck.
Last edited by ON Honker Hunter on Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by shags » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:48 am

I remember you said you could have the opportunity to work with a trainer. Did that happen?

Have you done any actual training, or are you simply allowing the dog to run amok?

It sounds like, in the dog's mind, he *is* having success in doing what he wants - flush and chase.

It's up to you to communicate to him that success is holding point. For that you need control over the situation using pen raised birds or pigeons, and a method of restraint for the dog, like a check cord. If your dog is chasing, he obviously isn't properly restrained from doing so.

IME some dogs have a stronger instinct to chase than an instinct to point. These dogs need help in inhibiting the chase and developing the point.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:45 am

veggie wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:28 am
Sharon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:49 pm
Really nice to hear back from someone on how things went. We don't get that often here. Thanks. :)
Well yes, persistent as I am I keep bringing him outdoors on wild birds. The last few weeks have been miserable though. He often points a few seconds before he rushes in to flush and chase, but also sometimes just goes straight in for the flush. I try my best to give him the experience he needs with birds, but seeing there is no real progress in longer points I sometimes wonder if I'm doing the right thing.
I have to say, reading back through the posts in this thread it seems like maybe this dog is in control. Does it live inside with you? That can make a big difference in dogs that are a bit more "high strung." I have a Lab that just turned four and you'd think she was still six months! Ridiculously happy and exuberant. If Ellie had been raised in a kennel there is absolutely no doubt in my mind she'd be worse than useless for anything today. But whether walking her to the grocery store or hunting in the field, she has ALWAYS been in control. Because she's learned to be under my control in the home. The exuberance becomes channelled when living together ... or you both go nuts. Establishing basic obedience becomes compulsory ... for both of you. For a dog stuck in a kennel it becomes optional part of the time. Some dogs (particularly some breeds of dogs) are fine with that, but for many, not so much. Through the first two years Ellie was pretty much by my side all the time when I was hunting (and I hunt almost daily for three months every fall). She wouldn't work with the other two dogs. Kept busting the Britt's points and bothering old Opal during retrieves. She was by my side but NOT on a leash. Then one day I hunted Ellie alone and presto! Discovered I actually had a very exceptional hunting dog, not just a happy go-lucky pet. Ellie can work her nose very well, stays close, goes where I direct her, doesn't chase the deer or cattle or even rabbits (though she may express an interest), and ... she points the birds. And points them well and consistently. But only if she's working alone. Otherwise she's playfully distracted wanting to socialise with the other dogs. Because I firmly established basic obedience and had somewhat extraordinary personal patience (very surprising for me!), I was able to wait for Ellie to develop. Some credit goes to the dog though. Ellie really loves me to death and wants to please but all the "jumping beans" inside her made it difficult (the gnawing scars on the living room piano legs will testify to that). We finally figured out how to channel that energy. She is an unusual dog, especially for a Lab, but hanging in there has certainly paid dividends.

Any trainer who tells you a dog only has a two second attention span is an idiot ... or he only works with dogs that are idiots. My dogs don't wear e-collars and never have, not in over fifty years of working them. If they range too far and I shout or blow the whistle, point to my side, and they don't come right back, they will bloody well get the business when they do come back and they know why. No question about that. Do I use physical correction? Yes. Not much different than shock therapy accept that I'm doing the correcting directly not some gadget. Do I physically abuse them? No. As always, there needs to be a proper balance with positive reinforcement. My dogs get lots of love and attention. It comes natural when living with them (especially in an empty nest). My devotion to my dogs is somewhat legendary in fact. Some people who own dogs (like some people who have children) simply don't have the stomach to correct them when they're out of line. They love them too much maybe. Some dogs (like some children) are "easy keepers": they are more easily molded than others. But even they require some shaping. And some dogs are a challenge. It's a balancing act that is complicated by genetic variability. Sticking a dog in a kennel all the time just makes the job more difficult in my opinion.

I should add that the most severe punishment for any of the dogs is making it stay with me while the others get to hunt. The little Britt will actually cry as she paces along behind me. Sounds like she's really hurting. Hard not to laugh. When finally released she is very careful to follow directions ... for a while anyway.
Last edited by ON Honker Hunter on Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

averageguy
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by averageguy » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:05 pm

shags wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:48 am
I remember you said you could have the opportunity to work with a trainer. Did that happen?

Have you done any actual training, or are you simply allowing the dog to run amok?

It sounds like, in the dog's mind, he *is* having success in doing what he wants - flush and chase.

It's up to you to communicate to him that success is holding point. For that you need control over the situation using pen raised birds or pigeons, and a method of restraint for the dog, like a check cord. If your dog is chasing, he obviously isn't properly restrained from doing so.

IME some dogs have a stronger instinct to chase than an instinct to point. These dogs need help in inhibiting the chase and developing the point.
I haven't seen the dog but the last sentence in Shag's post runs through my mind as well. You may benefit from training Whoa and then de-chasing this dog. See my WSF post for some key elements of that. The Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs will give a much better understanding of the entire process and I think you and your dog would greatly benefit from them.

veggie
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:17 am

Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:13 pm

shags wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:48 am
I remember you said you could have the opportunity to work with a trainer. Did that happen?

Have you done any actual training, or are you simply allowing the dog to run amok?

It sounds like, in the dog's mind, he *is* having success in doing what he wants - flush and chase.

It's up to you to communicate to him that success is holding point. For that you need control over the situation using pen raised birds or pigeons, and a method of restraint for the dog, like a check cord. If your dog is chasing, he obviously isn't properly restrained from doing so.

IME some dogs have a stronger instinct to chase than an instinct to point. These dogs need help in inhibiting the chase and developing the point.
Yes I did, and the one trainer I was working with became ill so we could not go forward with the plans. I've been in contact with others, and have scheduled time with one in the off season. There is only one weekend left of this season now, and feels like he will not get it this time around.

I figure that he might be one of those suspects you are talking off, and I try my best to stop the chase whenever he does. The last grouse we saw today he blatantly just ran in on. Usually he slows down when the birds are in the air well flying. For a first time dog owner I think it is really difficult to read the situation, especially as I see no improvements whatever I do. Some tell me the dog will get it at some point, just keep giving him experience, but starting to feel unsure about the whole thing.

veggie
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:17 am

Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:15 pm

ON Honker Hunter wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:45 am
veggie wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:28 am
Sharon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:49 pm
Really nice to hear back from someone on how things went. We don't get that often here. Thanks. :)
Well yes, persistent as I am I keep bringing him outdoors on wild birds. The last few weeks have been miserable though. He often points a few seconds before he rushes in to flush and chase, but also sometimes just goes straight in for the flush. I try my best to give him the experience he needs with birds, but seeing there is no real progress in longer points I sometimes wonder if I'm doing the right thing.
I have to say, reading back through the posts in this thread it seems like maybe this dog is in control. Does it live inside with you? That can make a big difference in dogs that are a bit more "high strung." I have a Lab that just turned four and you'd think she was still six months! Ridiculously happy and exuberant. If Ellie had been raised in a kennel there is absolutely no doubt in my mind she'd be worse than useless for anything today. But whether walking her to the grocery store or hunting in the field, she has ALWAYS been in control. Because she's learned to be under my control in the home. The exuberance becomes channelled when living together ... or you both go nuts. Establishing basic obedience becomes compulsory ... for both of you. For a dog stuck in a kennel it becomes optional part of the time. Some dogs (particularly some breeds of dogs) are fine with that, but for many, not so much. Through the first two years Ellie was pretty much by my side all the time when I was hunting (and I hunt almost daily for three months every fall). She wouldn't work with the other two dogs. Kept busting the Britt's points and bothering old Opal during retrieves. She was by my side but NOT on a leash. Then one day I hunted Ellie alone and presto! Discovered I actually had a very exceptional hunting dog, not just a happy go-lucky pet. Ellie can work her nose very well, stays close, goes where I direct her, doesn't chase the deer or cattle or even rabbits (though she may express an interest), and ... she points the birds. And points them well and consistently. But only if she's working alone. Otherwise she's playfully distracted wanting to socialise with the other dogs. Because I firmly established basic obedience and had somewhat extraordinary personal patience (very surprising for me!), I was able to wait for Ellie to develop. Some credit goes to the dog though. Ellie really loves me to death and wants to please but all the "jumping beans" inside her made it difficult (the gnawing scars on the living room piano legs will testify to that). We finally figured out how to channel that energy. She is an unusual dog, especially for a Lab, but hanging in there has certainly paid dividends.

Any trainer who tells you a dog only has a two second attention span is an idiot ... or he only works with dogs that are idiots. My dogs don't wear e-collars and never have, not in over fifty years of working them. If they range too far and I shout or blow the whistle, point to my side, and they don't come right back, they will bloody well get the business when they do come back and they know why. No question about that. Do I use physical correction? Yes. Not much different than shock therapy accept that I'm doing the correcting directly not some gadget. Do I physically abuse them? No. As always, there needs to be a proper balance with positive reinforcement. My dogs get lots of love and attention. It comes natural when living with them (especially in an empty nest). My devotion to my dogs is somewhat legendary in fact. Some people who own dogs (like some people who have children) simply don't have the stomach to correct them when they're out of line. They love them too much maybe. Some dogs (like some children) are "easy keepers": they are more easily molded than others. But even they require some shaping. And some dogs are a challenge. It's a balancing act that is complicated by genetic variability. Sticking a dog in a kennel all the time just makes the job more difficult in my opinion.

I should add that the most severe punishment for any of the dogs is making it stay with me while the others get to hunt. The little Britt will actually cry as she paces along behind me. Sounds like she's really hurting. Hard not to laugh. When finally released she is very careful to follow directions ... for a while anyway.
I can understand your concerns on the matter, and yes I do believe the dog was totally in control at some point. One day I just decided enough was enough and since it feels like I'm more in charge.

shags
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by shags » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:08 pm

veggie wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:13 pm
especially as I see no improvements whatever I do. Some tell me the dog will get it at some point, just keep giving him experience, but starting to feel unsure about the whole thing.
Maybe you can tell us whatever it is you are doing/have done.

From what you've written, it sounds to me like you take the dog out and let him hunt, hoping that he will point any birds he finds. Then he finds, but chases and you do what? Run him down and punish him? Yell for him to stop? Then what?

Letting your dog run crazy like this is only ingraining behavior you do not want. You must set up training sessions to get him straightened out. In these sessions you must have a goal, a plan to implement your goal, and the tools to accomplish your goal.
At the least, this means a check cord and birds. You mightcheck some you tube videos to watch some trainers work. You've been fiven some suggestions for good training dvds.

For some dogs there is no wild bird magic where the birds make the dog staunch and steady. Sounds like you have one of them. I had one as well. It is up to the trainer (you) to help your dog understand what you expect.

veggie
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:17 am

Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:21 pm

shags wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:08 pm
veggie wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:13 pm
especially as I see no improvements whatever I do. Some tell me the dog will get it at some point, just keep giving him experience, but starting to feel unsure about the whole thing.
Maybe you can tell us whatever it is you are doing/have done.

From what you've written, it sounds to me like you take the dog out and let him hunt, hoping that he will point any birds he finds. Then he finds, but chases and you do what? Run him down and punish him? Yell for him to stop? Then what?

Letting your dog run crazy like this is only ingraining behavior you do not want. You must set up training sessions to get him straightened out. In these sessions you must have a goal, a plan to implement your goal, and the tools to accomplish your goal.
At the least, this means a check cord and birds. You mightcheck some you tube videos to watch some trainers work. You've been fiven some suggestions for good training dvds.

For some dogs there is no wild bird magic where the birds make the dog staunch and steady. Sounds like you have one of them. I had one as well. It is up to the trainer (you) to help your dog understand what you expect.
What I usually do is run him down and stop him, let him calm down again before we walk on. My plan has been to stop the chasing, when the chasing is gone I hoped that it would get him to choose pointing instead, since running in means a mad guy is coming for him.

I don't know what I can do about the situation, all I do know is that it is not really working. Setup bird work is not easy to get done, and I've already mentioned I've set up time for this during the off season. I must say all the dividing suggestions are confusing to me.

shags
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Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by shags » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:42 pm

Youare correct, training isn't easy. If it was, we'd all be in the business and have wonder dogs :D

OK, so now you know that "let the birds train the dog" does not work for your dog. So you can eliminate that method from the suggestions you have received.

If I remember correctly, the use of an e-collar isn't possible for you either. So eliminate that also.

Your task is to stop the chase *before* the chase begins. Think what you are doing now. Dog chases bird, you chase dog, dog stops, you release dog, dog chases another bird. Scolding him when you catch him doesn't work because he's had his fun and has not been shown exactly what you want him to do. Telling him afterwards doesn't work. You must show him at first bird contact - not 1 or 5 or 10 minutes later. Thus the check cord.

Do some searches for Perfect Start videos, or Silent Command System, or any number of training videos. Watch and see how to do it.

Good luck going forward. You will lose the rest of the season but here's hoping that a few sessions with your new trainer will give you many more productive hunts over the years.

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