Setter tracking birds

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ON Honker Hunter
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:04 pm

Some of the confusion comes from the fact that most of the advice on here is from people who live by the e-collar and you cannot use one. I have never used them and do just fine.

This whole chasing business is a matter of lack of basic obedience, something that needed to be on its way to being sorted out when that pup first came home, not two years down the road. Again, I will ask you: Is the dog living in your home? There is no better way for handler and dog to get on the same wavelength. Bonding is natural if you live together.

Next, you say that the dog gets sent the wrong message when it has to deal with an angry shouting handler chasing after when it's run off. And you're right. So try something different. Whenever I called my pups into the house from the back yard, there was (and often still is) a treat waiting for them. Eventually they know there is something good to come of returning on command. When they're still very young and don't come into the house right away, I'll herd them back in through open door and then give them the treat. Before long, if I have to go out and herd the pup in, no treat. If they come on their own, bingo! They catch on quick! Next, go out in the yard and call the pup. When she returns to you, give her the treat and praise. Get right down on the ground ... they really like that face to face interaction. Once returning when called becomes instinctive, then it's time for some correction if the command isn't obeyed. But don't forget to also acknowledge good behaviour when it does follow orders (I admit I too often take my dogs' good behaviour for granted and need to improve in this department). Balancing positive reinforcement with punitive measures is tricky and different for every dog. A lot of it is common sense but quite a bit is instinctive. Some people are just incapable of managing a free lunch. But a good number of them don't try. Hang in there and trust your instincts. You can do this.

I start my pups right away on what most here call "whoa" command. I use "wait" because "whoa" sounds a bit too much like "No!" And I don't use a check cord either (never had one of those, by the way). When it's dinner time I make the pup sit and wait for the food while I pour it into the dish and then release with "okay." They have to sit in the living room doorway while I dish up the food in three bowls. "Wait" with finger pointed up. Youngsters may need help and get put back into their place until they realize what is expected. Then I progress to moving out of sight when dishing up the dog food and keeping them situated on their doorway spots before releasing. Eventually I move outside with a treat and the pup has to stay put while I walk away and then release. Start with short distances and work your way out. Bring the pup back to same spot if it breaks. They learn fairly quickly. Soon the "wait" command transfers into the field. If the dogs are onto something and a bit far I can holler for them to wait and they will usually hold up. If it's a rooster they have seen that's doing a runner, maybe not. But it's their instinct to run down cripples and I don't really want to curb that or we'll lose those fleet-footed devils. A running rooster is usually not going to hold for a shot anyway. Very often occurs in stubble. Dogs just as well put them up so I can watch where they go for cover, then hunt them up there later. Much better chance they'll hold in cover.

Here's a pair of photos of my first trio (Pearl has now passed and replaced with Ellie). First photo they are "waiting" at the side of the field while I walk out and hide a dead honker. I can walk out until nearly out of sight and they will stay put. Four hundred yards was the max. If I drop out of sight they will break and come looking for me. They hold until I return and release (second photo). It's "the game" and they love it. Helps pass the time when geese aren't flying. And excellent control exercise.
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veggie
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:52 am

shags wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:42 pm
Youare correct, training isn't easy. If it was, we'd all be in the business and have wonder dogs :D

OK, so now you know that "let the birds train the dog" does not work for your dog. So you can eliminate that method from the suggestions you have received.

If I remember correctly, the use of an e-collar isn't possible for you either. So eliminate that also.

Your task is to stop the chase *before* the chase begins. Think what you are doing now. Dog chases bird, you chase dog, dog stops, you release dog, dog chases another bird. Scolding him when you catch him doesn't work because he's had his fun and has not been shown exactly what you want him to do. Telling him afterwards doesn't work. You must show him at first bird contact - not 1 or 5 or 10 minutes later. Thus the check cord.

Do some searches for Perfect Start videos, or Silent Command System, or any number of training videos. Watch and see how to do it.

Good luck going forward. You will lose the rest of the season but here's hoping that a few sessions with your new trainer will give you many more productive hunts over the years.
Yes, but I'm still at the feeling i did not do enough to give him the experience he needs. During the fall we had only one week in the fields, and during this winter we have had 3 weekends and a few days here and there. Grouse have been scarce, so the accumulated situations he has had is about 20 in total. One of the reasons for this is because I was advised

1) to not let him loose when his basic obedience was so bad.
2) not let him loose before he was started and on a good way on his pigeon (only bird we are allowed to farm in this country) work.

We have worked on his basic obedience where I feel I have some kind of control of him and are able to call him off stupid things and redirect him when needed. Then I figured I'd try the "let the birds teach him", which I feel is going very up and down, as he sometimes points for a few secs, then the next minute he barges in. The last seven days I figure I might aswell do as I've tried to do, and then go to the trainer come summer time (have good belief in this trainer as he has a good pedigree).

I've tried looking for the books and videos you mention before w/o being able to find them. And also find information on videos which does not use the e-collar, as I do not have the access to such tools. None of the norwegian books I've read brings up this problem at all, so its very little discussed on what to do.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by shags » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:58 am

None of us get a do-over on the past. All we can do is move forward and try to correct our mistakes.

You don't need an ecollar to train your dog.

There are resources that might help you. Call the breeder of your dog and ask if they or someone they know can help. Is your dog registered with some organization, like we have here, some type of kennel club? They should have contacts with people from various pointing breeds who could help you. Are there pointing dog competitions in your country, or hunt clubs? Check with those for help. Attend an event and meet other owners amd trainers.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:14 am

ON Honker Hunter wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:04 pm
Some of the confusion comes from the fact that most of the advice on here is from people who live by the e-collar and you cannot use one. I have never used them and do just fine.

This whole chasing business is a matter of lack of basic obedience, something that needed to be on its way to being sorted out when that pup first came home, not two years down the road. Again, I will ask you: Is the dog living in your home? There is no better way for handler and dog to get on the same wavelength. Bonding is natural if you live together.

Next, you say that the dog gets sent the wrong message when it has to deal with an angry shouting handler chasing after when it's run off. And you're right. So try something different. Whenever I called my pups into the house from the back yard, there was (and often still is) a treat waiting for them. Eventually they know there is something good to come of returning on command. When they're still very young and don't come into the house right away, I'll herd them back in through open door and then give them the treat. Before long, if I have to go out and herd the pup in, no treat. If they come on their own, bingo! They catch on quick! Next, go out in the yard and call the pup. When she returns to you, give her the treat and praise. Get right down on the ground ... they really like that face to face interaction. Once returning when called becomes instinctive, then it's time for some correction if the command isn't obeyed. But don't forget to also acknowledge good behaviour when it does follow orders (I admit I too often take my dogs' good behaviour for granted and need to improve in this department). Balancing positive reinforcement with punitive measures is tricky and different for every dog. A lot of it is common sense but quite a bit is instinctive. Some people are just incapable of managing a free lunch. But a good number of them don't try. Hang in there and trust your instincts. You can do this.

I start my pups right away on what most here call "whoa" command. I use "wait" because "whoa" sounds a bit too much like "No!" And I don't use a check cord either (never had one of those, by the way). When it's dinner time I make the pup sit and wait for the food while I pour it into the dish and then release with "okay." They have to sit in the living room doorway while I dish up the food in three bowls. "Wait" with finger pointed up. Youngsters may need help and get put back into their place until they realize what is expected. Then I progress to moving out of sight when dishing up the dog food and keeping them situated on their doorway spots before releasing. Eventually I move outside with a treat and the pup has to stay put while I walk away and then release. Start with short distances and work your way out. Bring the pup back to same spot if it breaks. They learn fairly quickly. Soon the "wait" command transfers into the field. If the dogs are onto something and a bit far I can holler for them to wait and they will usually hold up. If it's a rooster they have seen that's doing a runner, maybe not. But it's their instinct to run down cripples and I don't really want to curb that or we'll lose those fleet-footed devils. A running rooster is usually not going to hold for a shot anyway. Very often occurs in stubble. Dogs just as well put them up so I can watch where they go for cover, then hunt them up there later. Much better chance they'll hold in cover.

Here's a pair of photos of my first trio (Pearl has now passed and replaced with Ellie). First photo they are "waiting" at the side of the field while I walk out and hide a dead honker. I can walk out until nearly out of sight and they will stay put. Four hundred yards was the max. If I drop out of sight they will break and come looking for me. They hold until I return and release (second photo). It's "the game" and they love it. Helps pass the time when geese aren't flying. And excellent control exercise.
Yes we do live together and I recognise a lot of what you are mentioning. We have a good understanding inside the house where all his good stuff comes from me and he obeys literally my every command all the time, so I think my basic obedience around the house is rather good. He is used to waiting for his food, and I can even stop him from eating with a whiff and he will wait for my orders to proceed. When he comes willingly I always give him a good dog and a pat on the back, when he does not obey I usually go get him and give him a correction.

What I might believe is happening around birds, is that the correction might not be high enough, and it is still worth it to chase the birds regardless of the correction given. Usually when these situations happen earlier I got the ""bleep" you" look from him, now its more "can I get away with this" look, so I feel I'm on the right track, I just need to figure this out.

Unfortunately I cannot allow my dog to be w/o a leash in my neighborhood (town laws), making drilling these things only possible in the fields. When it comes to bird work, the birds have been rather easy this winter and I think the dog gets edgy when the birds try to move. The obedience in bird work is also very situational, as with flying birds I can command sit and he will do so, but with running birds on the ground he will still make a run for it. I've been a little vary of punishing him around birds on this point, as I do not know if he understands he should hold point until I get there, and I guess this could be communicated through a checkcord.

It is fun to watch him though as I can see him getting sniff of grouse from 100 meters away and he will start creeping towards the area. I would like a dog who is able to pin them down for me to approach them, so I haven't really interfered when this has happen.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by averageguy » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:51 am

Veggie, the short version is you need a check cord, a thoroughly trained Whoa command and some training birds. Once the dog will comply with a Whoa command in many distraction situations other than birds, you can combine it with released bagged pigeons in a drill as I described in WSF thread to break the dog of chasing flying birds. Once the dog will stand to the Whoa command on released flown birds, you can then go to working birds on the ground.

Find a good pro trainer and buy yourself some help, as you are going to live with this dog for a long time. The pro can either train the dog for you or give you specific instruction on what you can work on yourself and then check back in with the pro periodically.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:27 am

I think there are some real gems in the responses provided here-in, especially from Shags and Garrison (earlier on). Veggie, I recommend you re-read them very carefully.
As many here already know, I take a rather unique approach to my training. I don't teach "whoa" because it's for humans not dogs. If you disagree, think about when you actually use the word. Does it serve the dog? I contest that it is a reflection of incomplete training. Simply put, Why would you "whoa" a dog that isn't moving? Funny how folk have come to realize that the best way to introduce gun/shot is with birds but they can't seem to connect the dots when it comes to getting a dog reliably steady. Do you say "Bang" before you shoot your gun? Sorry...I digress.
Your dog needs to be with a "good" trainer for a serious amount of time in order to recover a list of bad habits. I like getting my canine students here around 6 months of age for a good reason. It's easier to mold the dog into what you want rather than to resolve bad habits/issues. In conjunction, too often, addressing one concern can stress the dog and manifest into a new concern, and the list goes on!
I trained dogs (developed champions) for at least ~18 years without an e-collar. It can be done but a key component for me was that I was MUCH younger. Once I transitioned to the e-collar, I realized what I was missing. E-collars, long lines, leashes, pinch collars, choke collars, etc. are a reflection of their trainer/owner rather than the tool. I can hurt/abuse a dog and have NONE of these items on the dog. I can elicit a desired response with an e-collar (timing being but one of THE most salient attributes of this tool) and have the dog wagging his tail happily through-out the session.
I have a customer that trained Labs. He now has a Brittany. It has been EXTRA hard for him to relinquish some of his processes/training habits where his pointing dog is concerned. Perhaps it's just him? This I must say, training your dog on run-prone ditch parrots (pheasants) is NOT my recommendation especially for your particular dog's situation. Wild birds are not the answer "anymore" either because of the habits now ingrained (chasing). You need sturdy wild pigeons sans-launchers and LOTS of them. You also need access to an e-collar which you would secure to the dog's waist. You also need to keep your mouth completely shut so your dog can actually learn without any distractions. You WILL have success done properly. I can't say exactly when but I can say you will, with-in a month.
Everything you have kindly/sincerely offered tells me whomever gets to train this dog has her/his work cut out for them. For example, when I start my young dogs, they are allowed to chase until they see the futility - they "indicate". That precise key moment conveys when I step up the training to a process that rewards them for holding/pointing. IF you miss this pivotable moment, you embark on a road that misguides the dog into thinking that chasing IS the game/reward! Again, this then requires a FIX rather than the natural progression of a reliable, classy finished gun dog.
Thinking that a dog will "mature" into a decent bird dog at 2 years of age is sacrilegious!! I have an AA horseback bred (English) pointer here with no less than 8 HOF studs in her 4 generation pedigree. At 13 months this power-house of a girl was completely steady to the flush, shot and fall (on wild birds), retrieving to hand, AND handling like a dream with absolutely NO whistle or yacking/hacking! Further-more, she is typically what I develop here which is why waiting until your dog is 2 years old to mature into a bird dog is...archaic thinking.
It's time to do some serious thinking Veggie. I concur that $2000 dollars for 2 weeks training is STEEP! Perhaps you can find a "good" trainer and work out a deal where you can help him/her in other ways, in order to soften the financial investment. Once again, a great deal of the process will require recuperative training now. I have to be honest with you Sir, it's long-er road to hoe, now.
If you can't make the commitment/investment, you need to dig even deeper inside yourself as to the reality before you. I feel your pain.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by averageguy » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:07 pm

I don't whoa a dog that isn't moving.

I Whoa a moving dog and if the dog does not stop moving immediately I correct it. If the dog does stop moving when I give a Whoa command, I stay silent until I release the dog to move again. If the dog moves before I release it, I immediately say Whoa and issue a correction at the same time. Pretty simple concept - Whoa means stop moving and do not move again until I tell you to. Has worked to train steadiness to a whole bunch of fine birddogs including some of mine.

I only use Whoa as a part of teaching steadiness to WSF which I do not undertake until after my pups' first hunting seasons on wild birds.

I bring out the natural point in my pups using training birds and wild birds, letting the dog work them while I remain silent. I let the birds teach the dog to point. As you know pointing and steadiness are two different things. Pointing, (we hope) is part of the pup's genetic natural ability. Steadiness is a trained skill, not a natural ability, at least for all the pups I have worked with. So I approach them differently.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:44 pm

It's my opinion that you shouldn't need to "whoa" a dog to ensure steadiness. In fact, it coveys the opposite or...you wouldn't need to say "Whoa".
As I see it, a dog shouldn't be steady (around birds) because of anything you say. It should be steady because his/her training supports the dog being steady of his/her own volition (because it is rewarding for the dog). Further -to-this, how do you "whoa" a dog on point that you can't see (early season grouse/woodcock hunting for example)? I find it interesting I witness dogs that were pointing until the handler approaches. Then what ensues, "Whoa....WHOA....WHOA!!" In essence, you have taught your dog to be unsteady - or in the least unreliably steady - unless he/she is "whoaed". (I've won LOTS of trials braced with dogs like that.)

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:40 am

Some very interesting and variable thoughts from some very experienced people.

I admit my experience may be difficult to apply to this person's situation. I have the luxury of being able to hunt almost every day for three months a year. And I'm not into competition so no need to rush things either. And, with the exception of this last late bloomer, all my dogs have been exceptional pups right from the get go. Lucky genetics. Also, with one exception, I only worked flushing Labs. However, I had no trouble making the transition to Fr Brittany but that's mostly due to the dog, not me. I would have been fine with her being a flushing dog like the two Labs she was raised with. Her genes had something else in mind. A natural pointer.

It's good to hear what's going on in the home. That is very encouraging. It's certainly not as hopeless as the first posts seemed to indicate. Chasing deer/sheep is something that has to be dealt with before you start worrying about the dog charging birds. Because until you get the chasing livestock conquered, it is not possible to work him in the field anyway. So these very experienced people above should focus on that because it's the help you need most at this point. Actually, anything else is pretty much immaterial. We're getting the cart before the horse. I don't use e-collars but in this situation I would certainly invest in one (but of course it's not possible for you). You have a conundrum. My Fr Britt and then this young Lab I have now both were extremely interested in deer (they still get excited in the vehicle if one crosses the road) and both started out chasing them in the field ... briefly. I think it helped that the older dogs working with them did not chase which brought the youngsters back in short order for me to discipline. And I don't recall that it took much disciplining to stop it. I'm guessing it was a case of monkey-see monkey-do. "They're not chasing it so I guess I shouldn't be either." The only thing I can suggest is that you find a friendly farmer (perhaps one with his own pointing dogs?) who will let you work this out with your dog and a couple of cows or sheep in a corral. Close quarters where you can get at him quickly when he bolts. The "screw you" attitude won't get him far in that situation. Then work up to small pastures and then large pastures. This may require some rather harsh discipline. Don't hold back ... because this is a life-threatening defect. Similarly, my Fr Britt as a youngster always had a habit of zipping across the street to check the neighbor's lilac bushes for tweeties whenever I took the dogs out to the vehicle for a ride. Every time I'd give her heck for it but she just couldn't seem to control herself. Then one day Coral nearly got hit by a car. I laid into her severely. Walloped her good. Scared the crap out of her because she'd never seen that kind of intensity before. She's a delicate flower and it worried me I might break her spirit, but this simply had to stop. And it did break her spirit ... for most of the rest of the day. In the house she was confined to her bed and I kept reminding her of the transgression: "I TOLD you to 'leave it alone'" (so much for the 2-second attention span theory!). Eventually in the evening I let her crawl up on my lap and make up. "Oh boy! He still loves me." Next time we went into the driveway she made a lunge past the car and I reminded her "HEY! Leave it alone." She stopped and I could see the wheels turning. She looked back at me, then looked across the street, then came back. And that was it. She never crossed the road again. Mind you, she still makes a quick loop to check the lilac bushes on the neighbor's place next to our driveway but that's okay. A quick and safe energy release once the gate is open and before the car door is open. Neighbours get a kick out of it too. The thing about lilac bushes is they resemble the windbreaks on the prairies where we finds birds to shoot. So I'm okay with her being attracted to them ... as long as she doesn't cross the street.

Hen pheasants hold very well, even as the season progresses. Farm raised pheasants on hunting preserves, even the roosters, hold so well that they often have to be kicked in the air for a shot, literally! Quail may hold better but I've never had the opportunity to hunt them. Sharptails will hold well for the first couple of days of the season but after that forget it unless it's a lone bird. Sounds like this Norwegian's grouse are quite mobile which is not surprising for this late in the season. Once the snow is on the ground they lose their camouflage ... unless ptarmigan. Then they're very nervous. Try training earlier in the year when the birds have something to hide in and are less jumpy. I think the pigeon advice may be the best chance at this point. But again, resolve chasing livestock first. Who knows, maybe that will even help with charging the birds?

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:42 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:44 pm
It's my opinion that you shouldn't need to "whoa" a dog to ensure steadiness. In fact, it coveys the opposite or...you wouldn't need to say "Whoa".
As I see it, a dog shouldn't be steady (around birds) because of anything you say. It should be steady because his/her training supports the dog being steady of his/her own volition (because it is rewarding for the dog). Further -to-this, how do you "whoa" a dog on point that you can't see (early season grouse/woodcock hunting for example)? I find it interesting I witness dogs that were pointing until the handler approaches. Then what ensues, "Whoa....WHOA....WHOA!!" In essence, you have taught your dog to be unsteady - or in the least unreliably steady - unless he/she is "whoaed". (I've won LOTS of trials braced with dogs like that.)
FF,

I am not sure we are too far apart on this as I am a very quiet, mostly silent, dog handler and I let my pups figure out birds mostly through exposure. When training Steadiness I am more involved (vs pointing), but still pretty quiet as seen in the video I posted in the WSF where I say nothing to the dog other than to release him to retrieve and then praise him when he arrives with the shot bird. If you believe our approaches to Steadiness are quite different that is fine too. There would be a lot less books and DVDs around on the subject of dog training if all approached it exactly the same. I post with the intention of helping folks out and am sure you do as well.

On your Whoa, Whoa, Whoa example I am proud to say you will not find me doing that :D , and I agree that would be poor training. But similar to the often seen persons yelling "here", "come", "get over here" ... to dogs which have no intention of complying, an example of poor training is not a reason to stop using a Here command. Nor a Whoa command. We all just have to maintain the basic principles of dog training - be consistent, only give commands we are in a position to re-enforce in this case.

Hopefully the OP will find an approach to get his Setter under control, pointing and holding. I have posted my thoughts which are intended to be helpful to that cause which is all any of us can do with a dog we have never seen and cannot work with in the flesh.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:29 pm

I think you may well be right Averageguy, we're probably more alike than not. I do find that I type out things in this medium and sometimes get a surprising response. Then, I re-read my offering and all-of-a-sudden, I get it. Will do my best to be transparently clear but can't promise I will always get it right.
How do you turn up the volume on this thing anyway? :lol:

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:10 am

I am more than grateful for all the solutions presented in this thread, and I duly think we are on the track to become a better partnership than first presented. Also remember it is almost half a year since this process started out.

Today was a more productive day with an actual huntable situation from my dog presenting me with a bird well within shooting distance. He did break is point by himself though so there is still work to be done. Some of this work will be done during the training session we have set up during the summer, and come fall I will introduce the checkcord again.

What I am vary of is punishing the dog for breaking his point during bird work, as I do not want to put him off birds all together. Is it viable to punish harder for breaking point or should the general obedience be given more work?

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by averageguy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:45 am

Veggie, over in my WSF thread I posted an outline of how I go about teaching my dogs steadiness in response to a question about it. The methods I am using have been used to train untold thousands of dogs including many AFC/FC dogs by the man I learned them from. There is no question as to their effectiveness despite the fact that some other successful folks may use a different approach.

I like to get a dog pointing on its own with no commands or interference from me while doing it. I used pigeons in remote launchers in that work and have described in several posts on this board if you would like to search and read them. DonF has posted numerous times on this board his approach which sounds near identical to mine.

Pointing is instinctual for most pointing dogs which is why we can often get them pointing by presenting the opportunity to do so with no commands. For most dogs Steadiness is a function of trained obedience as most dogs including pointing dogs will chase birds when they fly off from their points at close range, until and unless the dog is trained to do otherwise.

It sounds like your dog does a flash point at best, dives in and then chases. As Shags posted some do and for those we may need to use some obedience training to get the dog pointing. It is most often inevitable that Obedience training is needed in Steadiness work of most pointing dogs.

Your concern about disciplining the dog too strongly around birds is well placed. All trainers should have that concern and it is the reason why I stressed in WSF thread that a Whoa command trained completely in all situations away from birds is essential. See in that thread as I stop my dog on a run at a distance with a single blast on the pealess side of my whistle which is the que for Whoa - i.e. stop and do not move your feet again until I tell you to. With the command that well trained and in place we have a much greater chance of stopping the dog around birds and the dog not becoming confused it is being punished for pursuing birds. Rather the well trained dog is mostly likely to understand the birds are just another situation where Whoa still means Whoa.

And the released downwind bagged birds I discuss in that WSF thread place far less pressure on the dog to not chase them than do a wild bird with upwind scent at a much closer distance to your dog.

I would not punish the dog for busting birds absent the dog disobeying a well trained command. Doing that could well result in the dog thinking it is being told to avoid birds as your concern correctly expressed. That is why the Whoa command is trained first. Then the dog can understand it being required to Whoa even in the presence of birds, not because of the birds. Birds are just another situation where Whoa still means Whoa is the short of it.

If I had your dog I would do two things immediately. I would begin training Whoa in all situations except for birds until I could control the dog in the manner I posted in the first video in the WSF thread. And I would use homing pigeons in remote launchers and see if I could stimulate the dog's natural point. It may well be that the combination of your dog's prey drive and an engrained habit of busting and chasing birds make the attempts to bring out its pointing instinct in this manner may fail. I would try it and let my observations of the dog tell me whether to continue or stop. But the part of training the Whoa command is essential at this stage is my input.

With a well trained Whoa command in place I would then proceed as I laid out in the WSF thread. I think it was also recommended by Shags in this thread, but the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVDs would give you a much better understanding of what I am describing here.

Trying to help and hope I have. Best of Luck

veggie
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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by veggie » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:10 am

averageguy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:45 am
Veggie, over in my WSF thread I posted an outline of how I go about teaching my dogs steadiness in response to a question about it. The methods I am using have been used to train untold thousands of dogs including many AFC/FC dogs by the man I learned them from. There is no question as to their effectiveness despite the fact that some other successful folks may use a different approach.

I like to get a dog pointing on its own with no commands or interference from me while doing it. I used pigeons in remote launchers in that work and have described in several posts on this board if you would like to search and read them. DonF has posted numerous times on this board his approach which sounds near identical to mine.

Pointing is instinctual for most pointing dogs which is why we can often get them pointing by presenting the opportunity to do so with no commands. For most dogs Steadiness is a function of trained obedience as most dogs including pointing dogs will chase birds when they fly off from their points at close range, until and unless the dog is trained to do otherwise.

It sounds like your dog does a flash point at best, dives in and then chases. As Shags posted some do and for those we may need to use some obedience training to get the dog pointing. It is most often inevitable that Obedience training is needed in Steadiness work of most pointing dogs.

Your concern about disciplining the dog too strongly around birds is well placed. All trainers should have that concern and it is the reason why I stressed in WSF thread that a Whoa command trained completely in all situations away from birds is essential. See in that thread as I stop my dog on a run at a distance with a single blast on the pealess side of my whistle which is the que for Whoa - i.e. stop and do not move your feet again until I tell you to. With the command that well trained and in place we have a much greater chance of stopping the dog around birds and the dog not becoming confused it is being punished for pursuing birds. Rather the well trained dog is mostly likely to understand the birds are just another situation where Whoa still means Whoa.

And the released downwind bagged birds I discuss in that WSF thread place far less pressure on the dog to not chase them than do a wild bird with upwind scent at a much closer distance to your dog.

I would not punish the dog for busting birds absent the dog disobeying a well trained command. Doing that could well result in the dog thinking it is being told to avoid birds as your concern correctly expressed. That is why the Whoa command is trained first. Then the dog can understand it being required to Whoa even in the presence of birds, not because of the birds. Birds are just another situation where Whoa still means Whoa is the short of it.

If I had your dog I would do two things immediately. I would begin training Whoa in all situations except for birds until I could control the dog in the manner I posted in the first video in the WSF thread. And I would use homing pigeons in remote launchers and see if I could stimulate the dog's natural point. It may well be that the combination of your dog's prey drive and an engrained habit of busting and chasing birds make the attempts to bring out its pointing instinct in this manner may fail. I would try it and let my observations of the dog tell me whether to continue or stop. But the part of training the Whoa command is essential at this stage is my input.

With a well trained Whoa command in place I would then proceed as I laid out in the WSF thread. I think it was also recommended by Shags in this thread, but the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVDs would give you a much better understanding of what I am describing here.

Trying to help and hope I have. Best of Luck
I agree on what you are saying, and my perseverence in bringing him out have been upon getting him in a hopefully steady enough point for me to grab the check cord. This is what local trainers have told me to do, they whom do train their dogs on wild birds.

I also had a long conversation with the breeder, and he told me my dog acted just like the mother, which did not hold a point before she was 2,5 years old, and the rest is history he said. I've been out with that dog, and it sure is a fine hunter.

Next weekend is the last weekend before we have mandatory leash laws until august the 20th, so if not for training purposes I will bring him out just for a last run before he is prohibited by law. Will use the time 'til we have our training sessions to introduce FF with him. Hopefully some of this stuff will be tied up by or during next hunting season.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:19 am

Veggie, because I elicit steadiness from my dogs rather than preventing them from moving, I have no idea why the check cord is your goal? Your dog needs to understand that moving is not only unacceptable but it is counter-productive to HIS goal. What you are actually teaching him is that he has to hold point until you get to the end of the check cord. In-other-words or in-dog-language, he has to break away/chase BEFORE you reach the restriction/check cord. Explain to me how your intentions are ACTUALLY being perceived by the dog?
Currently, his goal - which should align itself with your goal - is not what it should be. Hence I alluded to the remedial training required.
In summary, it is unfair of me to expect you to understand a process that I cannot convey to you over this medium, which is why I recommended you find a "good" trainer.
For your dog, chasing has become the most fun. Now, it has to stop being fun and his goals have to be....realigned.
All the best Sir.

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Re: Setter tracking birds

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:23 am

Veggie, I should add that ANY dog breed of decent genetics here typically is reliably steady/handles/retrieves etc. well before they turn 2 years of age - setters included.
Furthermore, running a young dog/pup while training strictly on wild birds actually delays the outcome rather than accelerates it, as you've discovered. Oh you'll eventually get there...perhaps...mostly....sort of...???
So, after 2-5 years of waiting out your prospect and it doesn't turn out as anticipated, do you get rid of him? No...gosh...how insensitive! No, I think you should accept what you have for another what...10-12 years until he passes on. !!!!! + (-$$$$) = !#?^?#@!?! :cry:
Running free on wild birds is like hoping you don't get caught speeding. …feelin' lucky?
Training so that you have control of the lessons - unbeknownst to the dog - is like having the cruise control on at the posted speed. Seemingly slower perhaps. Then again you aren't getting pulled over for speeding, a crash, stress, wear and tear on your vehicle, etc. With the cruise on, it's steady sailing AND with a predictable ETA, minus major issues.
Ok ok...I set my cruise control marginally over the posted speed. :wink:

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