dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

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BuckeyeSteve
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dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:27 pm

So here's where I'm at.... Rosco is 9 months old. I've intro'd him to birds only by letting him play with a chukar dangling in front of him, letting him play with a freshly dead grouse for a bit, and dangling a quail for him and eventually throwing it to fly away and let him chase. I tried four chukar last year, but literally every one got away without us ever getting near them - apparently I have a lot to learn about planting birds). In addition, he's found a lost quail on his own and pointed it, and unfortunately he got off his tie-out the other day while I was out and we came home to him tearing apart a dead yard chicken (yeah...that sucks I'm assuming, on the "don't let him catch any birds" front). He chases my chickens around the yard occasionally, and sometimes gets a mouthful of but feathers...but normally doesn't mess with them too much. That is his total exposure to birds so far. He seems to have no apprehension towards the live birds at all -- he gets super excited immediately and wants them, so I'm confident on prey drive.

I have 50 adult quail (that I haven't used yet but are in a flight pen far separated from people so they should be as flighty as a quail can be...for what that's worth). I have a pigeon loft built and have failed to catch any pigeons, but have just finally found a place I can go buy some homers at $10/ea, so I'm going to go in the next week or so and pick up 8 or so....but they won't be ready to use for a month or so until they re-home.

So... Here are my questions, for anyone who would like to volunteer some advice:
I want to use these quail even though I know 5 people are going to tell me not to. They are here, ready to go, and all I've got for now. When I use up these quail, I'll probably raise chukar next time...but that's for later. I don't have a bird launcher and unfortunately cannot buy one right now. Maybe next year, but not now. What is my best way to use the quail, specifically? Can I dizzy and plant them and come back 10 minutes later with Rosco and just walk him cross wind into their scent cone on my own.... or will it cause a problem that I'll have to have tension on his leash to keep him from bolting in on the bird (I know he won't hold point yet, and I'll be behind on the CC)? How do I flush the bird without him coming with me if I'm alone? Do I need a second person to flush the bird while I hold his pinch collar?
Or... do I just let him go so I'm not restraining him from the birds, let him drag the CC (I have a 40' CC) and hope for the best that the bird flushes and he doesn't catch it? If so...what do I do if he does catch it?
Any other advice to how I do this successfully (preferably alone but not a must)?
I'm watching the Training with Mo DVD series and reading the TWM book....but it's leaving me with a lot of questions. It seems like he is letting the dogs charge in when they have a launcher...but when they dizzy they are keeping tension on the CC (which I've read on here not to do).

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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by shags » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:58 am

I think your cc is way too long. 15 feet of really stiff rope works great...you have good control, the dog can move somewhat freely, and the cc won't snag or wrap around the dog's legs.

I let my pups drag the cc.

Depends on how you plant your birds. If you dizzy the snot out of them, then bury them under lots of grass and weeds, not good. If you dizzy them lightly, then they walk around visible to the pup, not good. What has worked well for me is to have smallish birdwork area. We use a little fallow field that have a few apple trees with light brush piles under, and edges with stumps and branches, and thicker weeds. Lightly dizzy the birds and toss them down close to the brush piles. The birds almost always scoot into the brush, but they've left a lot of scent. Pup can smell but not see them, birds are protected by cover that slows the pup down if he dives in.

I let the pups drag the cc but have them hunt close. If they point and stand ok, I let them enjoy standing there sucking in the scent, pick up the end of the cc, and go for an easy flush. If the bird is too buried, I don't worry about the flush amd gently lead the pup off toward another bird. If the pup doesn't point well, I step on the cc to stop forward movement, and stand him up and let him get a snootful of scent. Flush or not, depending. I expect that on the flush either pup will try to chase, so am ready to stop them on the short cc, and set them back nicely. Silence throughout the entire sequence, with a nice slow calm demeanor. Needless chatter and excited body language amps up the pup in the wrong way.

If you're trying to get the dog to point, you don't really need a helper. But if you're trying to steady a good point, helper is great IF they have a clue.

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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:52 am

First things first...

If your dog is charging in after the planted bird...it may not ready for prime time, IMO. Before my dogs see a planted bird they are pretty rock solid in the yard. If it were me, I would set the dog up in the field, whoa it and style it up and then go out front, simulate a flush, slip a bird out of a gamebag and let it fly when you are in a position to step on the checkcord, if necessary. You want to take the chase out beforehand so the dog understands what is expected. With 50 quail you have plenty to get this accomplished, I think. The best part is that the bird flew off, landed somewhere and basically planted itself. In a half hour or so, you can take your dog out and have it go hunt up that bird.

Now, as far as planting one quail for a youngster...

I would not dizzy the quail, but instead I would toss it into cover by bouncing it in front of the cover(hopefully on its breast and on the rebound into the cover. I do so using a sidearm throw. You are attempting to disorient and take the breath away from the bird. When it recovers, it will(ideally) be in a piece of cover. Usually they are fairly content to stay in a place they feel safe.

I learned this technique from field trialers who stocked birds from horseback. The bird planter typically follows the field trial party and puts birds back when they have been flushed out. They have to stay for at least a half hour(for a half hour stake) or for nearly an hour for an hour stake...and if you get it right they usually do.

The comment about the checkcord is right on. My checkcords are around 20- 25 ft. of stiff, thick cord. I keep the dog close when working birds so I can step on the cord if I need to.

Stopping a dog from moving in is only a problem IMO if you have not conditioned the dog in the yard to NOT move a toenail. You can do this with a wonder lead, by popping a checkcord, tugging on a prong or pinch collar, tickling it on the flank with an e-collar or whatever technique you choose to use. Once the dog has been conditioned to stop and stand, a correction for moving is not something unexpected but rather quite the opposite.

RayG

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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by DonF » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:26 am

I wouldn't dizzy any bird for a pup! It's not if the pup catch's it, it's when! I wouldn't use those quail either. Best way if your gonna use them, IMO, is to toss them in heavy cover and leave them be a bit. Let them walk around, who care's. Problem would be if they don't fly or don't fly well. Quail and chukar don't leave the ground and land in a tree, pigeons do.

You got or getting about 10 homer's for $10 ea, Great. But if you think you can realiably re-settle them in 30 days your fooling yourself. Good chance that unless you got squeaker's, they will go home when to turn them loose in 30 days. Best thing to do with homer's is use them as a start for birds that are raised there. After a couple nest's you might get them re-settled. With squeaker's you'll have a lot better luck getting them re-settled in a short time but, what you won't get for a few month's is young from them! If you can find someone selling feral birds your better off with them if you train withing 30 to 50mi from the loft. Feral birds home much better than most people think and settle faster.

I'm pretty down on training with pen raised birds but I'd say this, if they are in flight pens, good. Once you get your pup where you want on pigeon's use them to turn the pup over to game birds. Don't start over with them, simply let the pup point them and start shooting them right away. Bob White, even pen raised one's eat really good. And if you start shooting them from the first good find, they will be just another bird to the pup! If you start over you run the risk of the pup learning to catch them and if they don't fly well they could pull the pup on you. Very important they fly well! If all the get in flight is 20" you'll likely have a problem!
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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by Sharon » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:44 pm

"What is my best way to use the quail, specifically? Can I dizzy and plant them and come back 10 minutes later with Rosco and just walk him cross wind into their scent cone on my own.... or will it cause a problem that I'll have to have tension on his leash to keep him from bolting in on the bird (I know he won't hold point yet, and I'll be behind on the CC)? How do I flush the bird without him coming with me if I'm alone? Do I need a second person to flush the bird while I hold his pinch collar? " quote Buckeye Steve

I 'm one of those 5 :) . You've had much better answers than mine will be but.....Quail are for an almost steady dog. You have to get some hard flying pigeons somewhere. A second person is always helpful- well most second people :) That's why many use the launcher as their "second person".
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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:37 pm

shags wrote:I think your cc is way too long. 15 feet of really stiff rope works great...you have good control, the dog can move somewhat freely, and the cc won't snag or wrap around the dog's legs.

I let my pups drag the cc.

Depends on how you plant your birds. If you dizzy the snot out of them, then bury them under lots of grass and weeds, not good. If you dizzy them lightly, then they walk around visible to the pup, not good. What has worked well for me is to have smallish birdwork area. We use a little fallow field that have a few apple trees with light brush piles under, and edges with stumps and branches, and thicker weeds. Lightly dizzy the birds and toss them down close to the brush piles. The birds almost always scoot into the brush, but they've left a lot of scent. Pup can smell but not see them, birds are protected by cover that slows the pup down if he dives in.

I let the pups drag the cc but have them hunt close. If they point and stand ok, I let them enjoy standing there sucking in the scent, pick up the end of the cc, and go for an easy flush. If the bird is too buried, I don't worry about the flush amd gently lead the pup off toward another bird. If the pup doesn't point well, I step on the cc to stop forward movement, and stand him up and let him get a snootful of scent. Flush or not, depending. I expect that on the flush either pup will try to chase, so am ready to stop them on the short cc, and set them back nicely. Silence throughout the entire sequence, with a nice slow calm demeanor. Needless chatter and excited body language amps up the pup in the wrong way.

If you're trying to get the dog to point, you don't really need a helper. But if you're trying to steady a good point, helper is great IF they have a clue.
Thanks Shags... as always, good helpful stuff here. Couple questions... when you say "pick up the end of the cc (i do also have a 15', I just read something a long time ago about working dogs in the field on long cc's so I made one), and go for an easy flush", what do you mean by "go for an easy flush"? I think Rosco will point...not sure how long he'll hold it, but he definitely has pointed other things of interest (one lost quail, a turtle, toad, etc.). Do I get him on the cc close to the pinch collar and let him go with me, or leave some room on the cc so I can try to walk in from his side and see if he'll hold?

On the "trying to get the dog to point vs. trying to steady a good point"... am I not worried about working him on steadying the point at this stage? Is getting a short point a win, or should I be trying to work on it being steady from day 1 (I know it won't be, but am I correcting anything)?

Thanks!

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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:05 pm

I don't mean to answer for Shags, but I think an "easy flush" is a low energy flush...just kinda shaking the foliage and lifting with the toe of your boot...as opposed to stomping around, kicking with gusto, making lots of commotion, noise and having debris flying about.

If you are by yourself, try to plant your birds in the vicinity of a small tree or fencepost. If need be, you can tie the dog off to the tree or post and go do what you need to do.

FWIW, I bought one of those trainer's assistants which is a steel spike with a curl at the top to fasten the CC to. the first time I used it was almost MY last. I stepped the spike into the ground and tied the dog off then went into flush. The dog chased the flying bird and the pointed steel spike came out of the ground and ... in the words of Maxwell Smart... "Missed me by THAT much!" Next time I used it I stepped it in with the top facing away from the dog at about a 45 degree angle... kinda like a dead man. That held fast.

Anymore I like a 1- 2" thick tree.

As far as steadying a dog goes... that is the one time I actually miss a cigarette. I used to have the dog establish and then stand back, light up a smoke and just wait. if the dog moved, even a little, I would drop the butt, go tot the dog and physically pick it up and reposition it, styling it up and stroking it up... then go back and finish the cigarette. When I ground out the butt...then I would go in to flush.

RayG

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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by shags » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:14 pm

Steve,

If you aren't fairly certain that Roscoe will stand, don't even worry about the flush. That's more than he can handle right now. Sometimes, depending on the dog and where he's at in development, we grab the cc and let them charge in a bit but quickly reel them in and silently and nicely set them back up. By nicely I mean kindly, matter-of-fact, let's-just-stand-here-like-this sort of way, as opposed to a correction where your attitude would be more stern. Kind of explaining, no we don't charge in there...

By easy flush I mean you see the bird and it's in a position such that you can get it to rise easily, with no thrashing around. Sometimes pen quail will sit there looking like they'll take off if you only come near, but then when you do, the dang things run around a bush, or under the dog, or do something like that, so be warned and ready for idiot quail behavior.

Never ever expect pen quail to fly. If you get some decent flyers, great. But always have in mind that those things hatch looking for a way to mess up your training. I use them a lot, because I can't use pigeons much. Every time you train, afterwards think about what went right and how you can build on it, and what went wrong and what you can do to prevent it next time, or what you can do to work with what went wrong.

Lots of folks think a pup catching a quail is a catastrophe, but I don't, as long as I have a plan to prevent it happening more. Sure sometimes it sets you back a bit in training, but I've never had it ruin a dog. We run in hb trials, and I know plenty of dogs that never were allowed to catch a quail the whole time during their development, but who have bumped, chased, or caught birds in trials. it's just a dog thing, not a Meteor Crashing Into Earth.

Every time you train your pup, you should have in mind a way to keep him steady as possible. You don't have to harshly correct, just explain with your actions that you want him to stand. Then when he's farther along and has a clue, you increase your expectations and corrections. It's development. Baby steps.

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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:54 pm

birddogger2 wrote:First things first...

If your dog is charging in after the planted bird...it may not ready for prime time, IMO. Before my dogs see a planted bird they are pretty rock solid in the yard. My dog is zero steady in the yard. I intentionally haven't taught whoa, bc there seems to be mixed feelings on it. I've been trying to follow the Mo Lindley / West methods that say not to whoa them, to let he bird teach them....but I'm horribly not confident in my abilities to pull off the intricacies of this and greatly question if I should be whoaing If it were me, I would set the dog up in the field, whoa it and style it up and then go out front, simulate a flush, slip a bird out of a gamebag and let it fly when you are in a position to step on the checkcord, if necessary. You want to take the chase out beforehand so the dog understands what is expected This sounds logical to me.. With 50 quail you have plenty to get this accomplished, I think. The best part is that the bird flew off, landed somewhere and basically planted itself. In a half hour or so, you can take your dog out and have it go hunt up that bird.

Now, as far as planting one quail for a youngster...

I would not dizzy the quail, but instead I would toss it into cover by bouncing it in front of the cover(hopefully on its breast and on the rebound into the cover. I do so using a sidearm throw. You are attempting to disorient and take the breath away from the bird. When it recovers, it will(ideally) be in a piece of cover. Usually they are fairly content to stay in a place they feel safe.

I learned this technique from field trialers who stocked birds from horseback. The bird planter typically follows the field trial party and puts birds back when they have been flushed out. They have to stay for at least a half hour(for a half hour stake) or for nearly an hour for an hour stake...and if you get it right they usually do. I'm terrible at this from my little bit of experience, but I'll work at it. I did the sidearmed pitch with the four chukar I bought...I was throwing them like I was trying to beat a runner into third.... and within a few minutes the birds were both gone when I came back with my dog. Maybe the quail won't be quite as tough as the chukar....but I clearly need to work on this. Thanks!!

The comment about the checkcord is right on. My checkcords are around 20- 25 ft. of stiff, thick cord. I keep the dog close when working birds so I can step on the cord if I need to.

Stopping a dog from moving in is only a problem IMO if you have not conditioned the dog in the yard to NOT move a toenail. You can do this with a wonder lead, by popping a checkcord, tugging on a prong or pinch collar, tickling it on the flank with an e-collar or whatever technique you choose to use. Once the dog has been conditioned to stop and stand, a correction for moving is not something unexpected but rather quite the opposite. The methods above are all "whoa" training methods?

RayG

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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by averageguy » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:18 am

Steve, the best restraint I can muster is to say my vote is NO on using dizzied quail on a 9 month old Brittany.

One thing does not get touched on much on this board is the degree to which a pup catching birds has negative effects depends a good deal on the breed of dog. The advise you get here is shaded by persons working with EPs and Setters (which to be clear is an observation on my part, not a criticism.)

Let a DD, GWP, WPG, PP, SM catch a few birds at 9 months of age or older and you are absolutely going backwards. I expect a Brit falls between those bookends. Nuff said.

Following on the stake in the ground, check cord, by yourself approach: I have seen productive use an iron stake which has a sideways large U in the above ground portion of the stake. Lets the solo handler walk up and easily hook the check cord through the U and then walk out in front of the dog while still holding the check cord and restraining/stopping the dog should it move towards the bird. And can be setup/moved anywhere and less obvious to the dog at each new setup.

Using this approach you could place your quail in a tip up cage set in low cover to allow good air flow/scent. You know the bird will be awake and ready to fly, unable to move and the dog unable to grab the bird while in the cage ... It is vastly inferior to a remote control launcher but superior to birds set free on the ground for the stage of training you are working, (in my opinion). And tip cages are within everyone's financial reach. I use them at intermediate stages of training as insurance against a caught bird, before the dog is trustworthy on completely free roaming birds ...

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Re: dizzying quail for 9 month Brit

Post by DonF » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:55 am

BuckeyeSteve wrote:
birddogger2 wrote:First things first...

If your dog is charging in after the planted bird...it may not ready for prime time, IMO. Before my dogs see a planted bird they are pretty rock solid in the yard. My dog is zero steady in the yard. I intentionally haven't taught whoa, bc there seems to be mixed feelings on it. I've been trying to follow the Mo Lindley / West methods that say not to whoa them, to let he bird teach them....but I'm horribly not confident in my abilities to pull off the intricacies of this and greatly question if I should be whoaing If it were me, I would set the dog up in the field, whoa it and style it up and then go out front, simulate a flush, slip a bird out of a gamebag and let it fly when you are in a position to step on the checkcord, if necessary. You want to take the chase out beforehand so the dog understands what is expected This sounds logical to me.. With 50 quail you have plenty to get this accomplished, I think. The best part is that the bird flew off, landed somewhere and basically planted itself. In a half hour or so, you can take your dog out and have it go hunt up that bird.

Now, as far as planting one quail for a youngster...

I would not dizzy the quail, but instead I would toss it into cover by bouncing it in front of the cover(hopefully on its breast and on the rebound into the cover. I do so using a sidearm throw. You are attempting to disorient and take the breath away from the bird. When it recovers, it will(ideally) be in a piece of cover. Usually they are fairly content to stay in a place they feel safe.

I learned this technique from field trialers who stocked birds from horseback. The bird planter typically follows the field trial party and puts birds back when they have been flushed out. They have to stay for at least a half hour(for a half hour stake) or for nearly an hour for an hour stake...and if you get it right they usually do. I'm terrible at this from my little bit of experience, but I'll work at it. I did the sidearmed pitch with the four chukar I bought...I was throwing them like I was trying to beat a runner into third.... and within a few minutes the birds were both gone when I came back with my dog. Maybe the quail won't be quite as tough as the chukar....but I clearly need to work on this. Thanks!!

The comment about the checkcord is right on. My checkcords are around 20- 25 ft. of stiff, thick cord. I keep the dog close when working birds so I can step on the cord if I need to.

Stopping a dog from moving in is only a problem IMO if you have not conditioned the dog in the yard to NOT move a toenail. You can do this with a wonder lead, by popping a checkcord, tugging on a prong or pinch collar, tickling it on the flank with an e-collar or whatever technique you choose to use. Once the dog has been conditioned to stop and stand, a correction for moving is not something unexpected but rather quite the opposite. The methods above are all "whoa" training methods?

RayG
[/quote}

A bird cannot teach a dogwhoa. What the bird can do is teach the dog to stand still at least till it's flushed. Whoa is to me a very important command.whoa! If you are in a situation where you either get your dog stopped or it get's injured, whoa stop's the dog! If your wanting to stop the dog chasing the bird can't teach it, whoa stop's the dog. Whoa means one thing only, stop and stand still n
o matter the temptation. Whoa can also be used to stop a dog on a wild flush. A matter of yard work that simply teach's the dog that a bird flushing means whoa. Or call it stop, either way the bird going up stop's the dog. Properly used the bird with remote traps can teach the dog whoa in a fashion. The dog learns to beat the flush and the bird stays there. The dog push's and the bird fly's. But that is all dependent on how the trainer use's the launcher. If the trainer allow's the dog to move after the point, he teach' the dog it can move after making point to some bit before flushing the bird. If the trainer allow's the dog to fiddle around and move in closer, then the trainer teach's it's alright to move after the contact.

A wild bird can teach a dog quite a bit but does it in it's own time. You cannot set up a situation you want to work on with a wild bird and you can't rely on a wild bird even being around when you need it. In time the dog can be taught by a bird but it better be wild and you should be there when it happens to shoot the wild bird when the dog does it right, the dog then learn's how to get what it wants. the bird. You can't shoot wild birds in the closed season so wild only teach's a short time and you cannot time anything with a wild bird, it does what it want's.

Pen raised birds are unpredictable also. They may flush and they may runaround on the ground, even under your dog. They may fly only a short way and let the dog catch them even without a shot. But some of these thing's a pen raised bird do work fine for testing a finished dog, just not so well on a young started dog.

A friend of mine has an extremely nice E. Setter that she unknowingly taught the difference to between a wild chukar and a pen raised chukar. Dog is golden on the wild bird but not so hot on the pen raised bird. It was a training problem. If you can't make a pen raised bird act wild but at the same time you hunt wild birds, you dog will learn the difference. Lot of people can work with that through a lot of correcting when something goes wrong. The end result is a dog that has grown soft on point with any training bird, to much hands on does that. Don't miss understand, dog looks good but intensity has gone down hill from a dog waiting to be corrected. Wild birds can avoid that, pen raised birds bring it on. Even with the well trained dog, a wild bird will not allow the dog to many freedoms, a pen raised bird will.

With all that said I think that if you have the area to set out johnny house's and fly pen quail a lot, they will work great for training, reason being they do get pretty wild. Problem there is with the young dog, you still can't set up a situation you want because the johnny house bird have got wilt to the point they won't allow you to set them up. But at least you'll know when your in the area birds are at.
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