Hard Mouth

[quailroost]

I have a 2 year male GSP. He does everything correct, except he has a hard mouth. Most times when retrieving he is crushing the bird. I have used low level stimulation when I see him crushing the bird but I’m nervous if I turn it up enough to stop the problem, it will cause more damage than good. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated. He has a lot of potential but I need help correcting this issue.

[gonehuntin']

You sure he's crushing the bird or just loose mouthing it? With a hard mouth dog the collar many times makes it worse.

[polmaise]

At 2 years old ..how long has the "hard mouth" been recognised ? and when .
I would cease any stim or collar or even vibrate or tone . (even verbal from yourself tbh)
A video would help .

[averageguy]

The Perfect Retrieve DVD has a segment on addressing Hard Mouth. http://www.perfectionkennel.com/order-dvds.html

[Timewise65]

From my experience with Retrievers is the best method to break or avoid 'hard mouth' is that the dog be 'Force Fetched'! All of my dogs have been FF over the years, and none have shown HM!

If your dog has already been FF, maybe go though it again and continue it into collar training. Doing this makes sure that your dog understands what he is getting the 'stimulation' for! That is critical to anyone using an ecollar. NEVER 'stimulate' a dog to a command that the dog does not already completely already understands...that is collar training 101! The old guys used to think you could 'beat a dog' into obedience, but over the years they learned this did more harm than good.

Also, you should never increase the power on a collar to a point where the dog feels pain, if you so this you will see many bad behaviors develop fairly quickly. The usual test on level of stimulation is to watch the dogs reaction when stimulated. If they 'Jerk' or verbalize pain! You power is way to high. If they stop and look around, you are about right.

[Trekmoor]

Quailroost, have you any idea of the initial cause of the dog's hard mouth ? It can be just an individual dog's unfortunate trait , or it can come through from one or both of the parents ….. or the trainer can cause it during the pup's training. Sometimes a bird, like a pheasant can start it off by spurring a dog during a retrieve but, in my experience, it is usually older , experienced dogs that suddenly become hard mouthed following being spurred by a wildly struggling pheasant. Older, experienced dogs sometimes "know" that dead birds do not struggle or spur them !

I know very little about e-collars but I think using one in an attempt to cure hard mouth could easily cause more harm than good.

One form of hard mouth (trainer error) can be caused by a pup feeling stressed or anxious as it returns with a bumper or a bird. The pup worries about the "present" and begins to clamp down , unintentionally, due to anxiety.....maybe a bit like you might clench your jaw in expectation of a fight or of pain.


If you can, try to isolate the probable cause of the hard-mouth and then think about possible "cures."


Bill T.

[quailroost]

I had a trainer break him to Force Fetch. He will literally knock you down bringing back the bird. To me it appears he is anxious/excited about returning the bird, but he definitely is crunching down on the bird about 50% of the time. I did not notice this trait before being force broke. He has all the other tools except being too hard with his return of game. I agree with low stimulation not being the answer, I think that only enhances the issue.

[birddogger2]

I have a 2 year male GSP. He does everything correct, except he has a hard mouth. Most times when retrieving he is crushing the bird. I have used low level stimulation when I see him crushing the bird but I’m nervous if I turn it up enough to stop the problem, it will cause more damage than good. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated. He has a lot of potential but I need help correcting this issue.

Put the e-collar away for this. It is NOT the tool to use. You can, fairly easily make a dog avoid retrieving with it.

Make up a couple of bucks out of soft wood, like the pine from clothes closet poles and some small dowels. Then do a fetch, hold and give drill with your dog. Do it with the buck in your hand at first. it is often easier if the dog is on a table so you don't have to continually bend down. Make sure the dog takes the buck gently, holds it gently, but firmly until you call for it and then gives it up readily to hand. If the dog bites down...you will see it immediately on the soft wood. If the dog bites down, say nothing but substitute a buck that has blunted finish nails (4d work well) sticking out of the area that the dog will grab. The nails should stick out about 1/4" of each side and the point should be blunted. You want the dog to be able to grasp the buck without discomfort, but when it bites down...NO JOY.

Alternately, if you are sure the dog is chomping down on birds, You can put a couple nails through a cold dead stiff bird and then have the dog fetch it, as above.

It might be best to do a full fledged force fetch, but if you have never done it, the process might be more than you are prepared for...or need .

RayG

[gonehuntin']

When you say he's ""crunching the bird", have you checked to see if the ribs are broken, teeth marks in flesh, tearing the skin?

[JONOV]

When you say he's ""crunching the bird", have you checked to see if the ribs are broken, teeth marks in flesh, tearing the skin?

Good question...With quail I've noticed my dog is a bit sticky in letting them go...Not hard mouthing it but it seems like he wants to suck on it like a lozenge or something.

[quailroost]

Yes, he is crushing bones and mashing the innards out.
I tried something different yesterday. I tossed a freshly killed bird a short distance and followed him within 6-8’ of the bird, so he did not have but a short distance to retrieve. The first two retrieves he crushed the bird. I scolded the moment he crushed the bird and repeated. The third bird he would not retrieve. I returned to his force fetch training with the toe and got him to retrieve. I tossed another fresh killed quail and the 4th and 5th retrieves were spot on, no crushing. I believe I will need to repeat daily and stretch the distance as he improves. I was encouraged we finished on a positive note.

[gonehuntin']

Yes, he is crushing bones and mashing the innards out.
I tried something different yesterday. I tossed a freshly killed bird a short distance and followed him within 6-8’ of the bird, so he did not have but a short distance to retrieve. The first two retrieves he crushed the bird. I scolded the moment he crushed the bird and repeated. The third bird he would not retrieve. I returned to his force fetch training with the toe and got him to retrieve. I tossed another fresh killed quail and the 4th and 5th retrieves were spot on, no crushing. I believe I will need to repeat daily and stretch the distance as he improves. I was encouraged we finished on a positive note.

I always hesitate when a person tells me he has a hard mouth dog because a true hard mouth dog is so rare. I''m still not convinced yours it. The ear pinch is a more effective method of controlling hard mouth but he's been force by toe so you'll have to live with that. I would like to see you try a couple of things. The key to any hard mouth dog is control of the jaws. Put him on your table command FETCH and make him stand there holding the bird, HEAD UP and looking at you WITHOUT MOVING HIS JAWS. If he moves his jaws, tap him under the jaw with something hard like a whip handle end and command NO, HOLD. You never, ever, let him move his jaws on a bird.

Second thing and the FIRST you should try is to switch birds. Forget about the quail for while and go to pigeon and duck. They are a larger bird and the dog has a harder time hurting them. Quail and woodcock are difficult for a high drive dog because they are such thin skinned fragile birds. Try a bigger bird THEN go back to the table if you have to. You should also contact the trainer that ff'd him, have him look at the dog, and see what his advice is.

[cjhills]

If you have a really good recall, give the command the instant he gets the bird in his mouth......Cj

[averageguy]

If you have a really good recall, give the command the instant he gets the bird in his mouth......Cj

That is a key component of the Hard Mouth segment of the Perfect Retrieve dvd I recommended.

[cjhills]

If you have a really good recall, give the command the instant he gets the bird in his mouth......Cj

That is a key component of the Hard Mouth segment of the Perfect Retrieve dvd I recommended.

I don't have a patent on it anyone that wants to can use it.....Cj

[averageguy]

If you have a really good recall, give the command the instant he gets the bird in his mouth......Cj

That is a key component of the Hard Mouth segment of the Perfect Retrieve dvd I recommended.

I don't have a patent on it anyone that wants to can use it.....Cj

I am a user of the product and receive no monetary benefit from the DVD I recommended. Just trying to be helpful to the OP in pointing it out. I find good DVDs which include actual footage of problems such as this being addressed in training are very helpful to those seeking help.

[gonehuntin']

If you have a really good recall, give the command the instant he gets the bird in his mouth......Cj

That is a key component of the Hard Mouth segment of the Perfect Retrieve dvd I recommended.

m

Doesn't matter whose program it is, that is ALWAYS a primary component. Few people have ever seen a truly hard mouth dog and there are fewer trainers and programs that can cure it.

[averageguy]

My point was not at all who's program it was originally. It was to tip the OP off to the fact the DVD provides an excellent walk through of how tight OB and recall play a key role in getting the problem addressed.

[Sharon]

Nothing wrong with what you said Average Guy. If you know the programme and know it works then that's good help for anyone.