Chasing pigeons then quits!

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UPWLDGUY
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Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by UPWLDGUY » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:19 pm

Hey all,

I've been lurking like many for the past few years trying to pick up hints and tricks and different ways to train my first pointing dog that I would eventually acquire.
I got a llewellin this past spring and finally hit a small bump in the road, so this is my first post!

He is 7 months old and we've mostly been out just happy timing and going for walks looking for birds. He's bumped a decent amount of ruffies, sharptails, and woodcock and seems really birdy. Wild birds has been all he's seen so far. I've been following the Lindley/West method and specifically "Training with Mo." We've also done some obedience (here and stand mostly and intro to e-collar).

I was finally able to obtain some pigeons and the past few days I've carded them and let him chase which he does very intensely. I let him catch them to try to build prey drive. I did this 2 days and flew 2 birds each day. The past two days I've done the same thing but fired a .22 blank just as he is about to catch the bird to intro to gun which I've noticed no ill-effects.

Today (3rd day with the blank gun) he would chase and continue to chase after I fired, but when he got to the landed bird he would just stand next to it somewhat disinterested (the bird wouldn't run or fly again). When I would come to pick up the bird he would get excited again, as soon as it was in hand. Do you guys think this could be an indication of gun shyness or maybe he is bored with the pigeons already? Should I move onto launchers and still allow chase and try to intro the gun at the same time as developing pointing instinct? The first few birds I hand released....later ones I just lightly dizzied and had an assistant flush while I held him back with the CC until the bird was in the air.

Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated!

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Sharon
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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by Sharon » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 pm

"fired a .22 blank just as he is about to catch the bird to intro to the gun " quote OP

Timing is not right imo. Dog may be connecting the bird to the shot. How far is he away from you when you shoot? Can't be far if the bird is carded. I'd be shooting while the bird is flying hard away ( no carding). Yes you lose some birds but............ Remember too that a .22 shot is much sharper to the ear than a shotgun.
Many folk on here never allow a chase, but I think it is beneficial. However , I wouldn't be using the cc + chase. I let the chase happen so the bird can teach the dog that it can't catch it. Soon (or later :)) the dog will figure out it needs a new plan and will start to hesitate, creep, point. This is when the cc goes on until steady.

If you are following "Training with Mo" though, stick with that. It's a very good programme.
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UPWLDGUY
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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by UPWLDGUY » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:27 pm

Thanks for the quick reply Sharon!

I was expecting the bird not to fly as far as it did but it was probably 100 yards. They are feral birds so maybe that's why??

So no CC and no carding and use a launcher to ensure the dog does not catch the bird? The only other way I can think to do this is to plant the bird but obviously that might cause issues with it not flushing in time as to not be caught.

Do you typically use separate scent bird and launcher bird? I see some training programs do this and others don't.

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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by Garrison » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:27 am

Sounds like you have access to wild birds for the pup to root out, ditch the pigeons and let the pup be a pup for a little while longer. Plenty of time for training ahead. Putting him on wild birds as often as possible will teach him way more than any pigeon or contraption ever will. Sounds like he is just a pup that doesn’t know what to do with the bird once he catches it, so he probably shouldn’t be catching any more. I also agree with Sharon on the timing, my current dog was given to me with a built in gun shyness that the last owner installed. It took two people so we could get a little more distance and fired on the chase, one shot a week over many months and many many birds.
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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:16 am

I agree with both Sharon and Garrison. I also don't think pointing dogs actually need to catch birds in order to become "birdy." I train using only wild birds and my pups chase them but never catch them and the pups still become birdy.

I agree that the shot from the starting pistol might be the cause of the pup losing interest but I also wonder if, when the pup grabbed hold of those pigeons it got a mouthful of loose feathers that it didn't like too much ?

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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by SCT » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:35 am

Was the pup retrieving the pigeon after he caught it? I would mix it up and use other species of birds, preferably wild ones. I would also back off on shooting if you believe it is causing the pup to pause. Many times when gun conditioning a dog won't show any response to the gun until in the next, same situation. Different birds, wild birds, no need to let pup catch the bird, and intermittent shooting until you know the gun isn't creating the problem.

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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by DonF » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:59 am

I don't think the blank gun has a thing to do with it. Your letting your pup catch a winded pigeon with a card attached to it. Probably when the pup get's in in his mouth the bird struggles and I suspect that that's the problem. You done any retrieving work yet? You should because now your teaching your dog to go stand over the bird! What I would recommend is quit using the cared bird and get the birds homing back to where you keep them. Flush'em and let them leave. In the mean time work on retrieving. You could start with a frozen bird but I do start with a retrieving buck. Once that's going good I go to a frozen bird that has been thawed about 20 min. Then at some point use a fresh killed bird. I suspect that unless your pup is pretty bold, allowing a bird to beat it up with it's wings will ruin the dog's desire to retrieve, don't do that! I have never seen even a pretty well bred dog that didn't at some point wake up to birds without ever throwing a dead or live bird for them to maul. That desire to hunt is bred in and given a bit of time it will surface, just depends on the pup. Your's is there but your teaching it to not touch the birds by doing what your doing I suspect, stop that.
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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by mask » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:23 pm

Will the dog point? Why would you let the pup catch a carded pigeon? I would not let the pup catch another bird until he was pointing well. Once he was pointing I wouldn't let him catch a bird that was not shot or mock shot. You are blessed with wild birds so use them. A check cord is the way for now when not free running on wild birds.

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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by Gordon Guy » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:27 pm

Maybe the pup just doesn't have the desire to retrieve yet. It's not uncommon. I've had setters that would just go stand by the wounded/dead bird and wait for me to pick it up before leaving the area to find another. Your previous experience with labs may have spoiled you in the respect that you think all dogs will retrieve.

And, I Agree with those that said to ditch the pigeons and stick with wild birds until you start teaching manners. That's where pigeons can be used.
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UPWLDGUY
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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by UPWLDGUY » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:42 pm

I have a feeling Garrison is correct about him not knowing what to do with the bird once he caught it. I've done lots of retrieving work but only with a dummy with wings taped to it (I did not have access to any frozen birds). It could also be the loose feather thing as well.

SCT...he did not retrieve it after catching it. More like stood there next to it and if it moved would run in on it and take swipes at it.....until it was dead. Then he picked it up and carried it around. So probably like Don says...the bird struggles and he doesn't want to hold onto it.

The dog will flash point but not hold it. I've just been letting him chase wild birds up to this point and thats been it for bird contacts. I let the dog catch the carded pigeon because thats what the training program I'm using says to do for intro to gun. It says to "load a carded pigeon in a launcher, bring pup crosswind, launch bird, releases check-cord, and watch to see if pup chases pigeon and catches it." This supposedly creates boldness on pigeons....once this happens intro the starter pistol. I'm guessing he doesn't card the pigeons once the gun is involved? That part is not clear.....but now it seems like thats what should've been done.

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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by UPWLDGUY » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:58 pm

Scratch that last part....Training with Mo says to use carded birds for intro to gun and release check cord to allow pup to catch the bird.

I will ditch the pigeons and just focus on wild birds and just to be safe I will wait on the intro to gun and give it awhile and more bird contacts before I attempt that again. When and if I do move onto pigeons in launchers I will just let them fly free.

Grouse season opens soon so I will get some birds and work on retrieving actual birds....frozen, thawed, etc.

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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by Sharon » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:44 pm

UPWLDGUY wrote:Thanks for the quick reply Sharon!

I was expecting the bird not to fly as far as it did but it was probably 100 yards. They are feral birds so maybe that's why??

So no CC and no carding and use a launcher to ensure the dog does not catch the bird? The only other way I can think to do this is to plant the bird but obviously that might cause issues with it not flushing in time as to not be caught.

Do you typically use separate scent bird and launcher bird? I see some training programs do this and others don't.
Just got out of the hospital so not feeling too cheery. I always used and only used hard flying /dizzied pigions, but they are easy to get up here and cheap.
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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by oldbeek » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:53 pm

In your first post, you say you released 2 birds, 3 days in a row. Be careful. My current dog, I over trained, almost every day. Now she absolutely does not respect any planted bird. Some days she would rather go hunt wild birds and will run right pass dropped bob whites. Just blink them and leave the field to go see if she can find some valley quail. Drag her back to the training field and she will not even acknowledge the planted birds. It is just time to bring out another dog. In NSTRA she knows it is her job to find those planted bobs, but her point is not stylish like on any wild birds. Same results on chukars.

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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:06 am

My first attempts at dizzying pigeons were pretty disastrous. I did too much dizzying and the birds remained dizzied for too long. My 8 months old Brittany bitch was already a very good pointer of wild game and she had nothing but utter contempt for the dizzied pigeons. I think she detected my hand scent as well as the scent of the pigeons and so, to show her disapproval of my tampering with "her" birds she'd point them for 2-3 seconds and then move in, position herself very carefully …..then pee on them ! :roll:

She was my first ever pointing dog and I would love to have her back again now, she liked everything to be kept "natural" and it took a lot of training to persuade her to retrieve bumpers although she was a natural and very good retriever of game...……..she peed on a few bumpers too ! :lol:
In some ways that Brittany was the most "natural" dog I've ever owned.
My experiences with dizzied pigeons kinda put me off using them much on the dogs I trained later.

Bill T.
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UPWLDGUY
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Re: Chasing pigeons then quits!

Post by UPWLDGUY » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:51 pm

Bill...that's a pretty funny story. I'm not sure what I would've thought if my dog actually peed on the bird.

Thanks for everyone's responses and time answering my questions. I've trained a few retrievers but never a pointing dog so everything everyone said I will definitely keep in mind as I move forward.

Thank again.

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