What am I looking at? (Need some opinions)

[Fred]

I'm going to warn you, this post is going to be longer then average. To start off, I am a proud owner of a 20 month old male Vizsla dog. The bottom line is though, some slacking has been done and the dog is behind on training. I'm mostly concerned with the field training and getting him ready for next season. But some house manners and untouched basic commands should probably be addressed.

As far as getting him ready for the field, the following procedures have been done. I have been retrieving with him on a check cord using various objects. Mostly his favorite toys tennis balls, footballs, basketballs, hockey pucks, stuffed toys and my socks. (He's more into sports then I am, ...heheh). He retrieves consistently on the CC but its another story when hes off. He's a moderately birdy dog with great prey drive. I unfortunately haven't had him on wild birds which is where I probably went wrong. Hes been to a preserve to get use to the live bird scent but thats all. Scent drags have been done to perfection, although only now and then to keep his nose sharp. I have a barrel rigged to practice the "whoa" command but now I don't know what comes next. I've been doing this on and off for quite some time and I need to know how to apply using "whoa" in training to get him to understand what I want done when it's commanded. The only thing I can see being a problem with the barrel training in my situation is he tends to lay or sit down after a while. I'm not sure if hes bored, tired, cold, or what? I usually leave him on the barrel right around 5 minutes as I stroke his tail, pet him, lift his paw (he doesn't keep it up), kick the barrel, walk around the yard, leave his sight, and even go in the garage. What is the next step for the "whoa" command? Aside from that, I have a distinct whistle tone I always use for him to come. I'm going to continue to reinforce that but the next question is, should I start to introduce more or should I not overload the poor guy with them? Field training as I stated before is my number one priority.

House manners and basic commands NEED to be touched up on. The one basic command that I'm mostly concerned with teaching the little guy is "stay". He doesn't have a clue what it is... how can I teach this easily? Now house manners is a different story that is frustrating me day in and day out. The dog whines and begs whenever I'm eating. He doesn't bother anyone else but me, heheh. OK, some spoiling has been done but in moderation. Depending on what I'm eating I'll wait until I'm completely finished leave him a small scrap and let him clean the plate. Plus, sometimes when I eat tuna I pour some of the tuna water with his food. Lastly, treats are given now and then when he refuses to come inside on command. I forgot the one main thing thats pissing everyone off . He's getting his sneaky paws on the counters and eating meals, I mean full MEALS. Bowls of chicken (not raw), pasta, a cookie or two, and I can hear the little bugger checking 'em all the time from the basement. But by the time I go and try and correct him hes off doing something else or escaping. The "bleep" sneak. Just from what I told you, what can or needs to be done?

My situation as far as bird hunting capabilities goes is opening up immensely. We are inheriting a cabin in Central Northern Michigan brightening up all our recreational dreams. The mutt and I, will be chasing wild birds as much as we can, no matter what species. This I hope will be a good turning point in our training process. Being able to commute from Metro Detroit to bird country as often as we please.

If you made it this far through the post, I thank you. ANY help or constructive criticism will be beneficial to our training and thoroughly acknowledged.

Take it easy.

[Lab Man]

I think you are on the right track. If you have your dog "whoa" trained on the barrell I suggest its time to apply it to the ground, and then on to birds. You need to find some training birds and work on your dogs hunting abililty, whoa training on birds, steady to wing and shot. I suggest you get a dvd set called the The Perfect Start and the Perfect Finish by John and Cindy Hann. You can see there videos at www.coonriverkennels.com ( I just paid for my Sponsorship for this site). They are awsome vidoes. They will help you apply the "whoa training to the ground, on birds, steady to wing and shot, backing and so much more. Good luck on the dog.

[Fred]

I think you are on the right track. If you have your dog "whoa" trained on the barrell I suggest its time to apply it to the ground, and then on to birds. You need to find some training birds and work on your dogs hunting abililty, whoa training on birds, steady to wing and shot. I suggest you get a dvd set called the The Perfect Start and the Perfect Finish by John and Cindy Hann. You can see there videos at www.coonriverkennels.com ( I just paid for my Sponsorship for this site). They are awsome vidoes. They will help you apply the "whoa training to the ground, on birds, steady to wing and shot, backing and so much more. Good luck on the dog.

Thanks for the help Lab Man. Where can I find training birds in Michigan? Do you mean at a preserve or a supplier? Being that the videos are $65 dollars a piece can anyone else vouch for them?

[gr_elliott]

I am using the Perfection videos for my dog, they are real easy to understand and very detailed. As of yesterday my dog graduated from the Perfect Start to the Perfect Finish video

super easy to follow, even for a rookie like me

[Fred]

Looks to be a informative set of videos, I might consider. Now one of the last steps in "The Perfect Start" is proper use of an electric collar. Does anyone use one on a V? I guess once the time comes I'll have to judge it and see if he needs one.

Take it easy.

[ezzy333]

The collars get used on all breeds of dogs and not just sporting dogs. They are just an extension of the leash or check cord when used properly and a great tool. Just about as good for training a dog as a gun is for killing a bird. Neither are essential but sure are easy and effective.

Ezzy

[Fred]

The collars get used on all breeds of dogs and not just sporting dogs. They are just an extension of the leash or check cord when used properly and a great tool. Just about as good for training a dog as a gun is for killing a bird. Neither are essential but sure are easy and effective.

Ezzy

Thanks Ezzy. Yeah, I'm aware of what they are and what they are used for. I just think Vizslas have a reputation of being a "soft" dog that are loyal and obedient to their owners. Plus they generally aren't long runners in the field.

[Lab Man]

When I have any soft dog of any breed I am just more careful with them, and in most cases use a lower stimultion from the collar. With soft dogs you really have to teach them well how to shut off the collar, and in most cases they do very well. A dog does very well if they understand whats expected of them. Good luck

[gonehuntin']

But some house manners and untouched basic commands should probably be addressed.

This should be you top priority now. I highly recommend both the Perfection videos and the Dobbs. Perfection doesn't really address the basics in depth, Dobbs does. Dobbs is a great trainer with a fine record. He probably has the best yard program for versatile dogs in the country today. Perfection's field portion is excellent.

The only thing I can see being a problem with the barrel training in my situation is he tends to lay or sit down after a while. I'm not sure if hes bored, tired, cold, or what?

You simply teach him to stand up. When you are working the dog in the yard in basic obedience, teach him to sit and lie down. He'll need these commands to become a good house dog anyhow. As you are teaching him these commands, he'll lie down on sit, etc,. Tell him NO when he does, grab him by the skin on his back over the hips, and stand him up commanding, "STAND". He'll be learning six commands at the same time: Here, Sit, Down, Heel, Stand, Whoa (I prefer STOP to WHOA). Work the least on down , teach all the others first.

I usually leave him on the barrel right around 5 minutes as I stroke his tail, pet him, lift his paw (he doesn't keep it up), kick the barrel, walk around the yard, leave his sight, and even go in the garage. What is the next step for the "whoa" command?

You're boring him to death. You have to mix it up with these dogs. Add birds to the barrel drill. Work in the basic obedience work. Sounds like you have him ok on the barrel, now transfer this to the ground. A great book for you to follow is the NAVHDA Green Book. One of the best ever written on Versatile training.

House manners and basic commands NEED to be touched up on. The one basic command that I'm mostly concerned with teaching the little guy is "stay". He doesn't have a clue what it is... how can I teach this easily?

You don't teach a dog to stay. When you tell a dog sit, down, whoa, they should assume that command until released by you from it. Stay is an extraneous command.

Now house manners is a different story that is frustrating me day in and day out. The dog whines and begs whenever I'm eating. He doesn't bother anyone else but me, heheh. OK, some spoiling has been done but in moderation. Depending on what I'm eating I'll wait until I'm completely finished leave him a small scrap and let him clean the plate. Plus, sometimes when I eat tuna I pour some of the tuna water with his food. Lastly, treats are given now and then when he refuses to come inside on command.

Don't whine to us about this one; you know the answer! :roll: Quit feeding him from the table if you want this behavior to stop. Everytime he begs, command "No! Kennel!" and make him go lie in his kennel. He does have a kennel, right?

I forgot the one main thing thats pissing everyone off . He's getting his sneaky paws on the counters and eating meals, I mean full MEALS. Bowls of chicken (not raw), pasta, a cookie or two, and I can hear the little bugger checking 'em all the time from the basement. But by the time I go and try and correct him hes off doing something else or escaping. The "bleep" sneak. Just from what I told you, what can or needs to be done?

Easiest correction here is the e-collar. When you hear him around the counter, just buzz him on a 3 or 4 setting with the ecollar and don't say a thing. There is an alternate method. Just like an underground fence can be used to keep a dog in your yard, so can it be used in your home to define areas of the home. If you run it around the counters, everytime he gets close, he'll get a small jolt. You rarely see invisible fencing used like this, but is a highly effective method of defining home areas. Now, really, I gotta tell you, it sounds like this is one spoiled dog and has total control of you and your household. No wonder everyone's getting pissed at him. Sounds like one "Rude" dog.

[llewgor]

-----Easiest correction here is the e-collar. When you hear him around the counter, just buzz him on a 3 or 4 setting with the ecollar and don't say a thing. -------

I disagree with this method of using the e-collar, especially for some one new to trainer and to the e-collar. Ezzy explain the use of a e-collar the best, they are a extension of the leash or check cord. NOT A TASER GUN FOR DISCIPLINE.

If you want to stop your dog from jumping up and taking food from the counter then you must be there to enforce it when the food is on the counter. Or you should separate your dog from the food by kenneling the dog, or keep him in the basement with you during this time. If you leave this dog alone with food on the counter he'll take advantage of it, most dogs do.

[ezzy333]

Gone hunting has described his preference for training but it is not the prefered method fpr most experienced trainers. There are many ways to train so keep an open mind and train what you want. Remember training anything to a dog is consistance and repetion, nothing more. Most trainers will tell you to not teach sit to a young dog or heal. I never teach sit and have no problem or need to do so. I do teach stay when I open the kennel or house door so they don't try to beat me through the door. I bring this up so you can see people have difference of opinions and in all probability one is not much better than the other.

Remember you are training your dog to do the things you want it to do. If it does that you are happy and so is the dog. What I learn from other people is not what to train but instead I learn some of the pitfalls and problems they have encountered and learn not to repeat those things. In my mind that is where the sit and heal belong, just two things that can but don't always cause problems. Thats good enough for me to shy away from them and go on to other things.

Ezzy

[Fred]

Don't whine to us about this one; you know the answer! :roll: Quit feeding him from the table if you want this behavior to stop. Everytime he begs, command "No! Kennel!" and make him go lie in his kennel. He does have a kennel, right?

Yes he has a crate and is kennel trained heheh. I disagree with that though. I don't want my dog to be afraid of the crate, I want it to be a "safe place". If by negatively disciplining him then sending him to his crate he will connect the two as if it were a jail so to speak. And who wants to go to jail?

What I've been doing recently is saying "NO!" and giving him a jerk on his collar. If he continues to not obey then I get him on his back grab his collar and get into his face while saying "NO!". To try and get it into his head that it's not OK to do this. Without harming the dog mind you.




Thanks for the helpful incite guys.

[Fred]

A little update. I took a trip Up North to see a relative over the weekend. Hes got some acreage on the Au Gres River. I spent quite a bit of time taking advantage of the situation and getting the dog in the woods and on some wild bird scent. The relative has a weim which helped out the experience, they were great together. The weim gave him a little training on some good spots to look and get the hang of finding scents. We seen a couple of roosters on the last day but we didn't get 'em flyin'. There were quite a few instances when they were gettin' birdy. What a blast..... Oh well no experience in the field is time wasted.

Take it easy.

[Wagonmaster]

Just so I am sure I have this right, you have a 20 month old dog that has never been put on game birds of any kind, wild or pen raised, correct?

[Fred]

Just so I am sure I have this right, you have a 20 month old dog that has never been put on game birds of any kind, wild or pen raised, correct?

Nope. I've had him at a preserve at about a year of age. I have taken him numerous times in bird country all throughout his life to get him into some scent although no points or even flushes made. Hes done drills with wings since I got him home but that really doesn't count.

[gonehuntin']

Fred, you never have to worry about them thinking the crate is a "jail". To a dog, a kennel is security. Mine are in them all the time in my truck and in the house, you'll find them at various times of the day just sleeping in their kennels. Most dogs love and feel secure when they're in a kennel.

[gonehuntin']

-----Easiest correction here is the e-collar. When you hear him around the counter, just buzz him on a 3 or 4 setting with the ecollar and don't say a thing. -------

I disagree with this method of using the e-collar, especially for some one new to trainer and to the e-collar. Ezzy explain the use of a e-collar the best, they are a extension of the leash or check cord. NOT A TASER GUN FOR DISCIPLINE.

Using an e-collar on a setting of 3 or 4 low is a mighty long way from a "Tazer". This is use of an electric collar in it's basic mode, avoidance.

[gonehuntin']

Fred; you'll also find many opinions on training a dog on this board and few are totally wrong. You'll find that in training a bird dog, traditional methods rule, but that is rapidly evolving, at least with the Versatile dog owners. A famous old dog trainer once said " Training a dog is nothing more than replacing a greater problem with a lesser problem until you are left with as few a problems as is possible." You will find that for every action you take on a dog, there will be a reaction. Teach in to hunt closer and within your range, and he won't cast as far. Teach him to sit or lie down and in the yard he may do it on point; you just teach him to stand. Teach him to heel and he won't want to leave your side. Force break him and for a while he may not retrieve as happily. Greater problems with lesser problems. Training of Versatile dogs that are not used as trial dogs is in a rapid stage of evolution.

[Wagonmaster]

Those are the events you wrote about earlier. You have made some effort to get him on live birds, but have not succeeded. Maybe that would be a better way of putting it.

The number one mistake that beginning hunting dog trainers make is to fail to understand how important frequent and constant exposure to birds is. It is easy to convince yourself that you are "getting the dog ready for the field" by doing obedience. But you are not, all you are doing is letting time pass while the dog should be in the field, and by engaging in heavy obedience training you are making the dog very dependent on you, reluctant to get out on its own and search for birds or anything else. Now, if your idea of field work is to have a bird planted, obedience the dog to the bird, and if it points, claim you have a hunting dog, then maybe you are doing alright. There are people who do that with dogs. But that dog is not going to hunt for you when there are real, wild birds around.

You may feel that you are working productively with the dog towards field work, but you have accomplished nothing of any significance to the making of a bird dog and probably have taken a few steps away from that.

If you had a child and the child was interested in baseball, you thought it might have the skill to be a good baseball player, maybe a major leaguer, would you wait until the child was 20 to hand him or her a glove and a ball? Would you put the child through high school and college to learn the theories of physics and ballistics and human physiology, in the belief that knowing these things, the child would magically play baseball after receiving their B.A.? Where was the development of hand eye coordination, positions skills, and most of all love of the game?

Young bird dogs need to be exposed to birds early and often. Live game birds, not dead or frozen ones, and game birds, not robins in the park or cardinals in the bushes. Wings on strings mean nothing after about 12 weeks, they are just a game to get a young pup going. Dead frozen birds are just retrieving dummies. You have a narrow window of opportunity in the dog's life to get that start on birds, it should be done in the first year, but if you have not done it by the time the pup is 2 we say it is "not too late." That is a nice way of saying you still have a chance, but you better get on the stick.

Quit the barrel work and the sit work and especially the down work. These are things to blend in after the pup is birdy as heck and pointing. Go find your local NAVHDA chapter or any group of people training in your area. Sometimes your local Viszla club, or even your local GSP club, will have monthly training sessions. The GSP's will not turn you away. All of these groups will have birds to work with and can show you how, or they will know how to find birds. Or do what you have asked about in the other thread, get the pup into the hands of a professional trainer that will put the pup on a crash diet of birds right now.

In all honesty, if you want that dog to hunt, time is no longer on your side.

And from your post you are talking about a future of hunting that dog on grouse and woodcock. Ruffed grouse are the toughest bird there is for a dog to handle, they will accept no pressure from the dog. You have got some work to do. Start today not tomorrow.

[Devils Creek]

Those are the events you wrote about earlier. You have made some effort to get him on live birds, but have not succeeded. Maybe that would be a better way of putting it.

The number one mistake that beginning hunting dog trainers make is to fail to understand how important frequent and constant exposure to birds is. It is easy to convince yourself that you are "getting the dog ready for the field" by doing obedience. But you are not, all you are doing is letting time pass while the dog should be in the field, and by engaging in heavy obedience training you are making the dog very dependent on you, reluctant to get out on its own and search for birds or anything else. Now, if your idea of field work is to have a bird planted, obedience the dog to the bird, and if it points, claim you have a hunting dog, then maybe you are doing alright. There are people who do that with dogs. But that dog is not going to hunt for you when there are real, wild birds around.

You may feel that you are working productively with the dog towards field work, but you have accomplished nothing of any significance to the making of a bird dog and probably have taken a few steps away from that.

If you had a child and the child was interested in baseball, you thought it might have the skill to be a good baseball player, maybe a major leaguer, would you wait until the child was 20 to hand him or her a glove and a ball? Would you put the child through high school and college to learn the theories of physics and ballistics and human physiology, in the belief that knowing these things, the child would magically play baseball after receiving their B.A.? Where was the development of hand eye coordination, positions skills, and most of all love of the game?

Young bird dogs need to be exposed to birds early and often. Live game birds, not dead or frozen ones, and game birds, not robins in the park or cardinals in the bushes. Wings on strings mean nothing after about 12 weeks, they are just a game to get a young pup going. Dead frozen birds are just retrieving dummies. You have a narrow window of opportunity in the dog's life to get that start on birds, it should be done in the first year, but if you have not done it by the time the pup is 2 we say it is "not too late." That is a nice way of saying you still have a chance, but you better get on the stick.

Quit the barrel work and the sit work and especially the down work. These are things to blend in after the pup is birdy as heck and pointing. Go find your local NAVHDA chapter or any group of people training in your area. Sometimes your local Viszla club, or even your local GSP club, will have monthly training sessions. The GSP's will not turn you away. All of these groups will have birds to work with and can show you how, or they will know how to find birds. Or do what you have asked about in the other thread, get the pup into the hands of a professional trainer that will put the pup on a crash diet of birds right now.

In all honesty, if you want that dog to hunt, time is no longer on your side.

And from your post you are talking about a future of hunting that dog on grouse and woodcock. Ruffed grouse are the toughest bird there is for a dog to handle, they will accept no pressure from the dog. You have got some work to do. Start today not tomorrow.

Excellent post as usual John...

Two years ago we had an unusually damp (it rained like a son of a gun) fall in Manitoba, and I had several inches of water over much of my 86 acres (interspersed with willow and poplar clumps). Coincidentally, I was inundated with literally hundreds of snipe and woodcock. There was a bird every 50-100 ft within sight of my house and kennel. I have a dog who was maybe 5 months old at the time. He sat on a high spot watching the older dogs work up and point all these birds. He was visibly getting more excited and after several days he would tear into these birds and bust them up. I thought I would run a little experiment, and every day for a week or so, I just turned him loose on these wild birds.

Well he just tore them up for a couple of days, and after a bit I put a bell on, and I noticed the bell was going silent for longer periods of time. I found he was holding the snipe until I walked past him, and he was pretty cranked up, so I cautiously shot some birds for him, and found he wasn't paying any attention to the gun (he was chasing by this point).

To make a long story short, by the time he was 7 months, I took him to Alberta for huns, and he was finding and pointing some birds, and hunting like a demon.

Those birds have never come back since, unfortunately...but the point of my story is...

Don't teach your dog to point, if it doesn't know how to hunt!

I put VERY little pressure on a pup in his first season. I just want him to have a ball out there and find his wheels.

Bill Rayl told me many years ago "Your dog will tell you when he's ready to be broke"

[Wagonmaster]

Have not done it for awhile, but we get a woodcock flight through the eastern side of Minn., and if you get into the right covert on the right weekend in Oct., you can work 50 birds an hour, no kidding. It is just an absolutely great way to make a young dog. Woodcock hold very well, and with those quantities, it only takes a weekend or two to make a cover dog that will hunt for you for the rest of its life.

I read some years ago about a fella, I think he was one of the major circuit trainers, who just fenced in a big area, a couple of sections with bird populations (wish I had that kind of dough) and turned a bunch of pups loose in there to run around, gave them food and water and not much else. The same thing happened, they got birdy as heck and started hunting and pointing on their own. At that point he would take them out and put some training on them. Now that is maybe more "native" than most of us would choose to go, but it makes the point that it is birds and bird exposure that make the dog.

[Fred]

Excellent post as usual John...

I agree, thank you John.

There are few opportunities to find wild birds in my general area. I found a place and took him last week. I will be going several more times this week. I'm not sure if I mentioned a relative of mine has a 600 acre plot of land 20 miles from a cabin we are inheriting. The land is owned by one other person neither of which use it. If they do its during deer season trying to find that big buck. A few years back they clear cut a few areas which are probably holding some birds now. There are also plenty of other prime areas holding birds. They also emphasized they have seen a large population of roosters and grouse. Once we get the key to the cabin which will be Mid March I'll be up there whenever I'm not working.

[Devils Creek]

I read some years ago about a fella, I think he was one of the major circuit trainers, who just fenced in a big area, a couple of sections with bird populations (wish I had that kind of dough) and turned a bunch of pups loose in there to run around, gave them food and water and not much else. The same thing happened, they got birdy as heck and started hunting and pointing on their own. At that point he would take them out and put some training on them. Now that is maybe more "native" than most of us would choose to go, but it makes the point that it is birds and bird exposure that make the dog.

Don't know if its who you were thinking of, but Bob Wehle (Elhew Kennels) did exactly that, and most of us know how his dogs turned out.

[Wagonmaster]

Fred, spring is not the best time to try to get a pup on wild birds of any kind. As for grouse, the winter survivors are pretty skittish. And starting in about March, the roosters will run and never fly, part of their mating behaviour I guess. But they will generally not sit still for a dog. I would say try it, but be prepared to find some pen raised birds in case the wild ones don't work out for you this time of the year. Would not wait until the wild birds settle down.