Dog smells but no point

Post Reply
User avatar
Nmhuntr
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:42 pm
Location: New Mexico

Dog smells but no point

Post by Nmhuntr » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:00 pm

I have a Brittany that is about 14 months old. I plant quail for her and she finds them fairly reliably. The issue is that she will place her nose basically right on the bird as opposed to stopping a foot or so away and pointing. If the bird does not move she simply turns and walks away. If the bird moves them it is game on. Her tail is wagging the entire time.

Any insight or advise is appreciated

Thanks

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:10 am

I don't think you really have any problem . :D If you worked her onto birds that always would fly away if she approached too close then I am pretty sure she would start to point them. I never use quail, I use only wild birds when training a puppy, that is pheasants, partridge , grouse and snipe.

If I were not able to do that then I would use pigeons --- strong flying ones released from a radio operated trap as the dog approached. If possible I think you should do the same.

I think the reason behind your brits behaviour is simply that a bird that remains in place has very little interest for her. My first Brittany would carefully position herself over birds (dizzied pigeons) that did not move …..then piddle onto the poor bird in a display of utter contempt ! :lol:

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by shags » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:28 am

Nmhuntr wrote:I have a Brittany that is about 14 months old. I plant quail for her and she finds them fairly reliably. The issue is that she will place her nose basically right on the bird as opposed to stopping a foot or so away and pointing. If the bird does not move she simply turns and walks away. If the bird moves them it is game on. Her tail is wagging the entire time.

Any insight or advise is appreciated

Thanks
I think there is more to the story. How was the dog intro'ed to birds and what happened? How about the gun?

It isn't normal for a young dog to leave point like that. And it isn't tail wagging, it's flagging. Flagging IME is an indicator mostly of two things - the dog really wants to chase but won't for whatever reason; or the dog has been corrected/discipli ned around birds and is uncertain or fearful.

Sometimes stuff happens or we do things that affect the dog, even though we don't realize it. Think hard about the dog's earlier experiences with bird work, and see what you can come up with. Then you can get some real help to fix it.

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:00 am

Shags is right and I am wrong - -- it does depend on what you have been doing with the dog. The golden rule is --- do not correct the dog in the presence of game. What you consider to be a correction and what a dog thinks it is can be two different things.

Thanks for correcting me on this one Shags. I based my answer on what I do with a dog :D

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by shags » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:57 am

Bill, absolutely no criticism meant...just another point of view based on my experience. All good?

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:19 pm

Hi Shags, yep - all good. :D I had forgotten that not all people never correct a dog near game and just rushed in with a rather thoughtless answer.

Bill
The older I get, the better I was !

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Sharon » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:49 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I don't think you really have any problem . :D If you worked her onto birds that always would fly away if she approached too close then I am pretty sure she would start to point them. I never use quail, I use only wild birds when training a puppy, that is pheasants, partridge , grouse and snipe.

If I were not able to do that then I would use pigeons --- strong flying ones released from a radio operated trap as the dog approached. If possible I think you should do the same.

I think the reason behind your brits behaviour is simply that a bird that remains in place has very little interest for her. My first Brittany would carefully position herself over birds (dizzied pigeons) that did not move …..then piddle onto the poor bird in a display of utter contempt ! :lol:

Bill T.
I think you are right on Bill.
Hard flying pigeons are needed, not quail for initial training.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by polmaise » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:02 pm

Depends ... On ...?
Quail are great because you can get lots of flush with little flight ? ..from the same bird . :wink:
Some one has to figure it out . 8)
:lol:

ddoyle
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:29 am
Location: Bettendorf, Iowa

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by ddoyle » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:31 pm

Great advice already...invest in a bird launcher and the pigeons best money you will ever spend. I had a similar situation dog knew when a bird was planted but hunted wild fine.
Doyle

User avatar
Nmhuntr
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:42 pm
Location: New Mexico

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Nmhuntr » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:47 pm

She has been on pigeons and quail. I see your point about them not flying. She does want to chase them and they are not moving. My reference to tail wagging is that she was never on point. I thought once the dog was on point that movement of the tail was considered flagging.

Thanks for all the great feedback

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:30 am

I'm all in with whoever said "pigeons and launchers." Used correctly, they are incredibly valuable to a guy training a pointing dog.

A while back someone on this forum suggested the following technique (please take credit if you read this!): whoever it was said to plant the pigeon/launcher and be sure to know where it is. He then said that as soon as you see the dog smell the bird to launch the bird. The goal is to launch the bird after the dog scents it but before he points. It takes some practice to know when your dog hits the scent cone. The poster said after some time playing this game the dog will beat you and point before you can launch the bird.

I have used this on my pointer many times, but especially when she gets creepy or if she is losing intensity in training. She wants to find birds so bad and she doesn't want them to bust. The other time I do this is in the two weeks leading up to grouse season. Those birds are intolerant to a dog that crowds them... The result has been I get high head, high tail points from about 10 to 15 yards off in the grouse woods. I love it.
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

ddoyle
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:29 am
Location: Bettendorf, Iowa

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by ddoyle » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:54 am

Springer agree basically is Perfect Start (and I am sure others). When you notice they catch scent next movement launch. They will learn their movement causes the bird to fly and must stand still (point) for bird to stay.
Doyle

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by DonF » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm

I think the answer to the question is in the question. You were looking to let the dog get within a foot of the bird? Way to close! If your working the dog on a check cord, you need to know where the bird is and guide the dog into the scent cone and then stop the dog when it make's game! Next using birds that will allow a dog to get withing a foot and not flush out is a problem looking for a place to happen. The problem found the place. Get rid of the game birds and go to pigeons. Get a helper to flush for you. If you have remote's learn to use them and get the bird out well before the dog is withing a foot! Pop the birds at from ten feet to twenty feet. Actually you should pop the bird as soon as the dog let you know it smells it. But the best advice I can give you, is get someone to train with that know's what he/she is doing. Have a look at what their dog's do and if you like it, ya found a partner. Not when you find a trainer to partner up with, don't think. Follow instructions and react. A lot of people don't want to appear stupid and after all, it's just a dog. So they think things out like a human and the dog doesn't have a clue and they think the dog failed. Rule of KISS apply's in dog training, keep it simple stupid! Please don't be offended, most people start out they way you have and most of them get over it. Get a knowledgeable helper.

Wish you were close by, your dog would be perfect to fool with. It's not the dog.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

User avatar
Nmhuntr
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:42 pm
Location: New Mexico

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Nmhuntr » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:09 pm

Thanks a lot
Did not figure it was the dog. Strictly a new owner not taking the right approach.

Unfortunately, so far this dog is only as good as its owner and I am learning slowly.

Thanks again

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Sharon » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:45 pm

That is true for all of us. We all started out with a dog that taught us how to train, and every dog since that first one taught us something more.
Re you question about flagging:

excellent article I thought:

http://northwoodsbirddogs.com/the-point ... nd-tips-2/
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

strick9995
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:50 pm
Location: SE Kansas

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by strick9995 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:18 am

What was the preferred method before the bird launcher came along?

RyanDoolittle
Rank: Champion
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:39 pm

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by RyanDoolittle » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:26 am

Wild birds. However birds were far more plentiful back then.

Also more help was used as trainers were generally teams of 2 or 3 people.

With advancements in training techniques and training aids I dont know why you would look backwards.

User avatar
Settertude
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:36 pm
Location: Grove, Oklahoma by way of New Hampshire

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Settertude » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:35 am

I have had much better results using pigeons over quail, but nothing beats getting a pup on wild birds and after some basic training--just let the birds bring out the natural stuff from the dog.
My dogs have all seemed to just understand the game rather quickly, but then again while in NH, having birds within 30 minutes of the house was fortunate.
Being here in NE Oklahoma is going to be different with my new llewellin pup.
I hope to acquire some pigeons after a while.

User avatar
Nmhuntr
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:42 pm
Location: New Mexico

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Nmhuntr » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:39 am

Looks like one of my changes will be get rid of the quail and go to pigeons. Plus keep her on a lead.

Thanks

User avatar
Settertude
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:36 pm
Location: Grove, Oklahoma by way of New Hampshire

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by Settertude » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:50 am

Nmhuntr wrote:Looks like one of my changes will be get rid of the quail and go to pigeons. Plus keep her on a lead.

Thanks
Yup....and a strong release. Its important that the birds get up abruptly, in my opinion.
Having said that, I've had some good sessions with wild pigeons trapped from under a bridge back home to which I attached a piece of cardboard on a string. They get up fast, but didn't fly far. Adding the shot into that scenario is not a bad idea.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Dog smells but no point

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:15 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:Wild birds. However birds were far more plentiful back then.

Also more help was used as trainers were generally teams of 2 or 3 people.

With advancements in training techniques and training aids I dont know why you would look backwards.


I have been using and selling pigeons for dog training for 50 years or so. Never heard of a launcher back then and finally the manual launcher came into being. Trainers have been planting birds for training for many many years and many still are. I never run into a trainer that was part of a team but many did have children that helped as well as hiring young kids to help around the kennel. Ryan, if you read this whole thread I think you will find that no one is looking backwards.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

Post Reply