Quail caught

[BuckeyeSteve]

As many warned.... quail suck and my dog caught one. It wasn't a planted bird. It was a bird I turned loose a few weeks ago. We just went out gun conditioning my dog (he's one year). Before we got to my planted bird (in the launcher), he got scent of a bird lower in the field. He started running through the fields, & I saw a bird flush and fly. Rosco went crazy ripping back and forth through the field looking for more (i'm guessing here...I could see jumps and fast movement, but wasn't that close). I whistled and he came running to me....bird in mouth.

I have a couple connected questions here.

First... I didn't jump right at taking the bird. I petted him, let him hold it...but eventually pulled it from his mouth. I know I'm not supposed to take a bird out of his mouth bc it will make him hard mouthed...so a minute later I gave it back and let him run around with it. After a while, I took it again because he was getting pretty rough with it in his mouth (and I still had a bird in the launcher we needed to find). I put the bird up, then went to find the bird. I was worried he would rush in after learning these things are catchable....but he held point for about 5 minutes until I walked in and "flushed" it. I had him on a field stake so he couldn't chase. When we were finished, I gave him the bird again to carry (again, wanting to keep him from being hard mouthed). As he carried it, he kept repositioning the bird further and further back in his mouth (getting harder with it). I finally took it away b/c i was worried he was going to crunch it down and swallow it.

I think he's been conditioned to be hard mouthed from non-game birds. He catches moles in our yard that I've tried to take away...or our cat kills them and he finds and eats the nasty smelly half rotten little things. I take those when I can, but he runs and speed-swallows to try to keep me from getting them. We've also had to fight multiple chickens out of his mouth... Bottom line - he's learned that if he wants to keep something he needs to eat it fast or we'll take it.

How do I fix this?

Second.... The quail he caught... that could happen again. There are quite a few of these released birds that are living wild on the property. I don't know why he chased this one but froze like an ice cube on the one in the launcher. I assume the bird flushed before he scented it (it was SUPER windy and wet out today). Once he saw it fly he went into berzerker mode and got on the chase (again...the one he caught was not the one I saw flush and fly). I don't use his shock collar when I think he's near birds, even if he's doing something wrong. How do I manage this chasing of birds that are "wild" living in the field?

[cjhills]

not that much of a launcher trainer but I think I would ditch the quail and use pigeons. the pad in the launcher has a lot of odor which causes some issues. Some of the launcher trainers will have some ideas on your issues...….Cj

[BuckeyeSteve]

not that much of a launcher trainer but I think I would ditch the quail and use pigeons. the pad in the launcher has a lot of odor which causes some issues. Some of the launcher trainers will have some ideas on your issues...….Cj

I've built a quail hutch, but have yet to successfully catch or buy quail. I bought a trap which turns out to be useless, and I've tried buying but have only found a couple local sellers and they haven't had any to sell when I've contacted them. I'll renew my effort though.

[birddogger2]

BuckeyeSteve -

What you can do to eliminate chasing very much depends on the type of conditioning the dog has gotten prior to bird work.

I will correct my dog for chasing with the e-collar... IF the collar is around the dog's neck and not on its flank. Here's why...

I do a good deal of yardwork on heel and whoa, starting out with a pigging string(poor man's wonder lead) and I progress to the prong or pinch collar and then the e-collar...all around the neck. The dog is very used to the neck as a point of contact for obedience type commands.

The way my dogs are brought along the dog has been schooled to not move until released, once it stops and stands. So ... breaking and chasing is actually a lapse of obedience which would have been corrected with a pop of the check cord(on the neck) or a pop from the pinch or prong collar. The nick from the e-collar, or series of nicks or, if necessary, the higher level continuous stim is, therefore perceived by the dog as an obedience correction.

I would then physically pick the dog up and move it back a good part of the way back to where it was originally standing. I used to carry the dog ALL the way back, but was given advice that it was not necessary to go all the way back(and it was correct). Then I would style the dog up and make it stand there for a good long time(several minutes, by the watch).

It has never caused me a problem with birds since the dog understands very well that whoa is an obedience command and by breaking and chasing, it messed up on an obedience command.

However, if your dog is NOT conditioned to stop and stand using the neck as a point of contact, enforcing in the manner I just described might cause problems. It might not, depending on the dog, but why risk it?

It is never too late to back up on the training and add in a piece. Better to do that than to forge ahead and possibly create new or worse problems.

RayG

Incidentally, if I slip and actually holler "WHOA" (knee jerk reaction)and the dog stops... I will not use the e-collar, but will go and physically pick the dog up, carry it back and do all the rest...for reinforcement. The dog messed up...sure...but it stopped when commanded verbally, so I don't correct the dog for obeying.

[Trekmoor]

I can't really comment on possible uses of the e -collar when dealing with these problems as I know next to nothing about how to use them. I'd stop using quail though and if no wild game birds could be used I'd use pigeons instead.

The hard mouth thing would have me worried though. Dogs that are possessive of the items (including birds) they get hold of sometimes do clamp down on them . I would do a lot more retrieve work using bumpers at first and would keep on using them until I had the dog giving me a decent, straightforward , delivery. Then I'd firmly tie bird wings onto the bumpers and do the same all over again. Then I'd put a cold, dead bird inside a length of ladies nylon stocking tied to completely cover the bird.

When I had the dog delivering that O.K. I'd start to snip little bits out of the stocking to pull a few feathers or perhaps the bird's head through.

I'm having to go through this rigmarole at present with my daughters 9 months old GSP pup , he caught a farmyard hen and she made the big mistake of chasing him to get it back ! Seen from the pup's point of view this was a great game to play !!! When I tried the pup on his first cold, dead pheasant a week or two back he went nuts and roughed it up then began to run away with it. I had, however, gained enough control over him to recall him so he reluctantly came back to me and then his previous training using bumpers took over and he gave me the bird.

I have gone back to bumpers only since then with him , he will get no more birds in his mouth until his excitement levels are more controllable. The dog must come to you, do not go to the dog during retrieve situations.


Bill T.

[averageguy]

The Perfect Retrieve DVD shows you how to train through Hard Mouth and the Perfect Start shows how to make productive use of launchers and pigeons for steadiness.

http://www.perfectionkennel.com/order-dvds.html

[shags]

As far as the chasing/catch, I'd do as Ray suggested, and correct for a failed whoa or recall command. You can back up for a couple weeks and get the dog collar conditioned if he isn't already. Then you can correct him before he has a bird in his mouth. I can see your dilemma with needing to correct the dog for a misdeed, but wanting to reward him for a concurrent good behavior. But I'd ack up a d work on the steadiness.

I've had multiple well-broke dogs trained on pen raised quail. Thing with those birds is, you'd better be prepared for bad things to happen. In your case, it sounds like you let the dog do his own thing and weren't on top of the situation. If you have any idea of loose birds being around, then stay on top of the dog for now, have him hunt close or stake him out while you're placing your launcher or whatever. When your dog is more reliable, then you can let him go more.

As far as mouthing the bird, think what happened...he mouthed it, you took it, you gave it back, he mouthed it some more. So you basically rewarded him for something you don't want. Next time take it away gently, put it up, and work on retrieve stuff later. Work on one issue at a time with a young dog.

Your pup sounds pretty normal, and good on you for asking for help before you get into a mess. I hope you continue to go forward successfully, and have a ton of fun with that pup.

[birddogger2]

Buckyesteve -

Shags has made some excellent suggestions as have others. If you know there is a potential for a problem, you need to plan around it and have a way to prevent the problem from interfering with the training.

Always plan your work first and know exactly what you want to accomplish. Then you can assemble your training devices, review things that can possibly go wrong and how to handle them...before you put the dog down. Preparation and forethought facilitate good timing when training... and good timing makes everything go so much smoother when training.

Since I mostly work on pointing dogs for field trials these days, I am not so focused on retrieving. However, what you said your dog was doing would be unacceptable if I wanted the dog to retrieve shot game. A dog should scoop the dead or wounded bird up and hold it firmly but gently in its mouth until delivered. If the dog "repositions" the bird in its mouth, that is unacceptable and a precursor to it chomping down. The dog needs to hold whatever it has in its mouth, without moving it around.

In addition to doing heel/whoa or just whoa drills in the yard, you might do some retrieve drills with a soft wood wooden buck. If you use soft pine or such, you will be able to see tooth marks if the dog is pressing too hard. I would also get in the habit of reaching back to the dog's flank when asking for the buck. If the dog does not instantly deliver, and at first, even if it does instantly deliver... an upward tug on the skin on the dog's flank, near the back leg seems to "encourage" the dog to spit out the bird. Dunno why...but it works... and there is no tug of war.

Patience, persistence and insistence. You will get it done.

RayG

[isonychia]

I have learned that we can't plan for all of the mistakes, and there are going to be a lot of them. When things happen in the field and I realize I have no control over the situation, like a dog catching a bird, I just default to ignoring it. Make non-events out of mistakes. No running, petting, yelling, commands of any kind. Just walk up, slowly take the bird away, and then pretend as if nothing ever happened.

[DonF]

Your dog isn't ruined over one caught bird, or even two! And I would not give it a bird simply as a reward for doing something right. If you want to give your dog a bird, shoot it! Blood scent on the bird should mean something to the dog. No blood scent from a live bird should mean point it. Best advice I can give you is either keep your dog on a check cord until it's doing well and get a helper to flush birds for you or get remote traps and definitely pigeons. Something I've noticed about pen raised birds that spend much time in the wild is they do get much more wild, assuming they haven't become predator food, which likely they have! Your dog should not have been able to catch a pen bird that has been loose in the wild for two weeks. Must have been something wrong with the bird.

Get the remote, and tape your mouth shut then run your dog on the traps and you need to make the pigeons act as much like wild game bird's as you can. Give your dog no second chance to make a good point, pop the bird before he point's but, he beats you to it, it's his. If he comes to close from up wind, pop the bird, don't give him a chance to come around and scent it. You will need to know exactly where the birds you plant are and you have to control the situation. Once you pop a pigeon the dog is not going to catch it unless you allow the dog to get to close. Dog get's withing about 15" of the bird pop it. And please keep your mouth shut at every mess up and simply go on like nothing happened, it was a non event! let your dog be a dog and you be a wild bird!

[BuckeyeSteve]

I can't really comment on possible uses of the e -collar when dealing with these problems as I know next to nothing about how to use them. I'd stop using quail though and if no wild game birds could be used I'd use pigeons instead.

The hard mouth thing would have me worried though. Dogs that are possessive of the items (including birds) they get hold of sometimes do clamp down on them . I would do a lot more retrieve work using bumpers at first and would keep on using them until I had the dog giving me a decent, straightforward , delivery. Then I'd firmly tie bird wings onto the bumpers and do the same all over again. Then I'd put a cold, dead bird inside a length of ladies nylon stocking tied to completely cover the bird.

When I had the dog delivering that O.K. I'd start to snip little bits out of the stocking to pull a few feathers or perhaps the bird's head through.

Bill T.

Thanks.... that's good stuff. I'll get on that asap.
On a related question.... what do i do about non-bird things he has that I want him to drop -- like dead rotten moles or mice my cat has killed and dog has found. It can't be good to let him eat those...but he goes in to frantic speed-swallow mode when I try to take them. I assume these two things are connected, but I don't want to allow him to eat live or dead & rotten small animals.

[BuckeyeSteve]

I've had multiple well-broke dogs trained on pen raised quail. Thing with those birds is, you'd better be prepared for bad things to happen. In your case, it sounds like you let the dog do his own thing and weren't on top of the situation. If you have any idea of loose birds being around, then stay on top of the dog for now, have him hunt close or stake him out while you're placing your launcher or whatever. When your dog is more reliable, then you can let him go more.

I agree with you & Ray on this.... I let him run and play while I was starting the hunt (bird was placed before I ever brought the dog to field), hoping he'd join in. When he found some distant bird scent, he got excited and started running around, not where I wanted him. I was lost here and didn't know the correct thing to do. I guess I should have called him in....but at the time I didn't want to stop him from hunting, even though it wasn't exactly where I wanted him to be. My inexperience definitely was a big issue here.

As far as mouthing the bird, think what happened...he mouthed it, you took it, you gave it back, he mouthed it some more. So you basically rewarded him for something you don't want. Next time take it away gently, put it up, and work on retrieve stuff later. Work on one issue at a time with a young dog.
Yep.... agree again. Another example of me being confused on what to do in a tough situation. I've read NOT to force the bird out of a young dogs mouth....but I know he wasn't going to give it to me if I didn't. Once I took it, I was worried that he was going to learn the lesson to stay away so I can't take it next time, so I gave it back...thinking I'd show him that it wasn't a big deal to have a bird in his mouth. Turns out, he was hard with it anyway.

Your pup sounds pretty normal, and good on you for asking for help before you get into a mess. I hope you continue to go forward successfully, and have a ton of fun with that pup.

[BuckeyeSteve]

Buckyesteve -
Always plan your work first and know exactly what you want to accomplish. Then you can assemble your training devices, review things that can possibly go wrong and how to handle them...before you put the dog down. Preparation and forethought facilitate good timing when training... and good timing makes everything go so much smoother when training. Agree...I actually do try to plan, I just don't know what to do when my plan goes sideways. I'm learning with each time out though. I just hope I don't do irreparable damage to my dog while I learn along side him. Overall....I actually feel like things are going okay - but I also know a better trainer would have this dog far better than "okay". I'm enjoying the effort, and still have hope of good results...but I also see clearly I've got a year or more to go before we get where I want to be, and that's if I don't create problems that are above my pay grade to fix.

Since I mostly work on pointing dogs for field trials these days, I am not so focused on retrieving. However, what you said your dog was doing would be unacceptable if I wanted the dog to retrieve shot game. A dog should scoop the dead or wounded bird up and hold it firmly but gently in its mouth until delivered. If the dog "repositions" the bird in its mouth, that is unacceptable and a precursor to it chomping down. The dog needs to hold whatever it has in its mouth, without moving it around.

In addition to doing heel/whoa or just whoa drills in the yard, you might do some retrieve drills with a soft wood wooden buck. If you use soft pine or such, you will be able to see tooth marks if the dog is pressing too hard. I would also get in the habit of reaching back to the dog's flank when asking for the buck. If the dog does not instantly deliver, and at first, even if it does instantly deliver... an upward tug on the skin on the dog's flank, near the back leg seems to "encourage" the dog to spit out the bird. Dunno why...but it works... and there is no tug of war. I will absolutely get on this...thanks!

Patience, persistence and insistence. You will get it done.

RayG

[BuckeyeSteve]

Your dog isn't ruined over one caught bird, or even two! And I would not give it a bird simply as a reward for doing something right. If you want to give your dog a bird, shoot it! Blood scent on the bird should mean something to the dog. No blood scent from a live bird should mean point it. Best advice I can give you is either keep your dog on a check cord until it's doing well and get a helper to flush birds for you or get remote traps and definitely pigeons. Something I've noticed about pen raised birds that spend much time in the wild is they do get much more wild, assuming they haven't become predator food, which likely they have! Your dog should not have been able to catch a pen bird that has been loose in the wild for two weeks. Must have been something wrong with the bird. I definitely wondered about that.... one quail flushed fast and far, and he caught this one either on the ground or on the takeoff. The bird looked a little rough when I got it...but then again it had just come out of my less-than-gentle dog's mouth. I figured he was just moving so fast he was on top of the bird before it had a chance to react and his fast reflexes got him the bird. It's currently in my fridge getting ready to go on the grill....maybe I should rethink that!

Get the remote, and tape your mouth shut then run your dog on the traps and you need to make the pigeons act as much like wild game bird's as you can. Give your dog no second chance to make a good point, pop the bird before he point's but, he beats you to it, it's his. If he comes to close from up wind, pop the bird, don't give him a chance to come around and scent it. You will need to know exactly where the birds you plant are and you have to control the situation. Once you pop a pigeon the dog is not going to catch it unless you allow the dog to get to close. Dog get's withing about 15" of the bird pop it. And please keep your mouth shut at every mess up and simply go on like nothing happened, it was a non event! let your dog be a dog and you be a wild bird!

One of the few things I feel like I am doing right is my lack of words in the field. I practice a lot of silence, except for the occasional whistle to let him know I'm moving areas... a little "let's go" whistle....

[Trekmoor]

QUOTE …"On a related question.... what do i do about non-bird things he has that I want him to drop -- like dead rotten moles or mice my cat has killed and dog has found. It can't be good to let him eat those...but he goes in to frantic speed-swallow mode when I try to take them. I assume these two things are connected, but I don't want to allow him to eat live or dead & rotten small animals." END QUOTE... by Buckeye Steve

...............................................................................
by Trekmoor
Provided the mice etc. haven't been poisoned the dog should come to no harm. I have beside me as I type a little black monster of a cocker spaniel called "Charlie." When out for walks or during lulls while out at shoots Charlie hunts mice and voles. He has done this for at least 11 years now and what he catches he eats ! I just leave him to it , he's a very healthy wee dog and he always has been.


I know how unpleasant it can be when a dog gets hold of something really yucky however. A dog I used to have specialised in finding and retrieving used condoms ! With them and with other unsavoury items I bit the bullet and insisted on a good retrieve completed by a good delivery. I hated taking that sort of thing into my hands but it was better than letting them go down the dog's throat.

A good straightforward delivery can sort this kind of problem out .....but I still detest doing it ! Another way of dealing with the problem is to try to completely ignore the dog when you see it with something in it's mouth. The theory is that your seeming disinterest in an item will cause the dog to become disinterested in it too. In practice, I have found that doing this works with some dogs but not with them all.
When a dog approaches you with something in it's mouth it is doing a retrieve. If you then grab hold of the dog or chase after it to try to take the item from it you are then training it NOT to retrieve.


Whatever you do please do not chase the dog to take "nasty things" from it. Doing that may cause the dog to dodge and avoid you while keeping possession of the item ....perhaps by eating it.


A retrieve is a recall during which a dog is carrying something. Get a really good recall even with strong distractions around, then a really good retrieve and delivery and you will have fewer problems.

Bill T.

[JONOV]

…"On a related question.... what do i do about non-bird things he has that I want him to drop -- like dead rotten moles or mice my cat has killed and dog has found. It can't be good to let him eat those...but he goes in to frantic speed-swallow mode when I try to take them. I assume these two things are connected, but I don't want to allow him to eat live or dead & rotten small animals." END QUOTE.

Not exactly Apples-Apples, but my HS Zoology teacher did some graduate work with a captive wolf pack, fed almost entirely on road killed animals, mostly deer, and she said you'd be shocked at how rancid/decayed the stuff could be and they'd still take delivery, feed, and the wolves would eat it.

Obviously OP can teach "no, leave it!" but I'd not be paranoid about him eating things he finds in the yard assuming you aren't poisoning them.