Not holding Birds

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Sevensetters
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Not holding Birds

Post by Sevensetters » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:33 am

I have a six year old English Setter that is a 2 time and close to a 3 time NSTRA Champion, and she has stop holding her birds during a field Trail. I have never had one to do this at stage of of life, I am looking suggests to help me correct this problem.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:56 pm

She has found out in that situation she can get away with it.

You need to set up a test environment and start making corrections.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:57 pm

Same idea as a dog that becomes collar wise, except this time it is test wise.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:59 pm

X2 - test wise. Dogs are so smart! "Well, he can't correct me here so......"

The second question is what to do about it. I'll look forward to some answers. :)
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by shags » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:06 am

The dog apparently got away with coming unglued at a trial at least once, and now she's running by her rules, not yours. Some dogs, you can allow a small infraction from time to time and they stay pretty much honest, but others will take advantage. With the cheaters, you can't let desire for winning a stake override keeping the dog honest. Keep the big picture in mind.

It might help if you can do some training on your trial grounds, especially if you can get some friends together and set up a little faux trial. You'd have to have all the trial stuff, like four wheelers etc to *maybe* fake out your dog.

Otherwise, plan on throwing away some entry fees and do some training at the trial. You're going to have to figure out a good correction that doesn't violate any rules your format has about correcting or training on course. I run in AKC FTs
and the rules say no training, but most judges understand these situations and don't mind a handler collaring a dog and setting it back and making it stand, as long as there isn't any rough stuff.

However, at one time I had a dog that was good in training, but at trials he would do things like blow backs, root out birds, delayed chase...something different every single time. I took corrections pretty much to the limit but it didn't phase him. So one trial, I just gave up, put him on the rope, and went back to camp without a look or word to him. That was just the ticket! Next stake he was perfect and remained good all through that season and those following. So it goes to show you need to find what your dog will consider effective correction.

Good luck to you.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:42 am

I agree with the other folk, your dog "knows too much!" Something very similar sometimes happens in our retriever field trials over here. A dog will come to realise it is in a "no handler contact" situation and will run -in although remaining perfectly steady during ordinary shooting days !


In days gone by over here the judges would eliminate me from a trial for my dog going out of control during a retrieve but would then give me a wink and tell me they thought a bird had been left unpicked "somewhere around" and would I hang back then go to look for it ? They were giving me (or any other competitor in that same predicament) the chance to wait behind and then correct my dog in the same area where it had gone out of control . I never wasted that sort of chance !


Perhaps something similar could be done with your dog ….with the judges permission ?


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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by isonychia » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:23 am

I started trying something different with my 8 year old brittany this year. At the beginning of the season he is all about himself, every year. It usually takes a few hunts to reel him in and correct him for chasing, ranging out to 400 yards in the grouse woods, etc. This year nothing was working, so one time he went way out on a point about 400 yards away and so I just sat down and waited for 30 minutes for him to come back, put his leash on and we left and didn't hunt anymore that day. After that he stayed within 150 yards and was just nailing it all season. Maybe next time you can anticipate the break, let her go, then leash the dog up and put her back in the kennel and not run her the rest of the day. Take her fun away. Remind her she wants to do well because that is the only reason she is out there and if she doesn't, she looses that privilege. If she is smart enough to go test wise I would think she could figure that out.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by DonF » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:33 am

I'm gonna say handler error. Problem is the handler at some point changed the rules and the dog like's the new rules. Now the fix is to go start over and don't allow the same thing to happen again. My guess is what happened is at least a few time's your dog actually broke but you called it good enough and shot anyway. Think about what you just taught the dog! Quit worrying about how well you might be doing in the test or the trial and worry about keeping your dog steady. Most problem's with the dog's are caused by the handler! Dog's know what they are allowed to get away with!
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Sevensetters » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:57 pm

Thanks:

I appreciate the response, after reading the comments I am sure this is something I will need to correct during a trial.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:58 pm

I'd go to a club training day. Run your dog FIRST so it can't hear corrections being made. When she takes out a bird, have a real " Come to Jesus" meeting with her. Pull her out of trials a while. Go to another training day. Repeat meeting. Now, try her in a trial.
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by oldbeek » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:03 pm

Dang, we got off subject.. In NSTRA just tell the judge you are going to correct the dog if it drops the bird. Tell the judge to call for a bye dog if it happens. Immediately go to the dog, put the bird in its mouth, demand hold and walk it out of the field on a leash. Stake it out to watch the field the rest of the day.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by OhioVizsla » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:59 pm

Is it not holding point, or not holding the bird on a retrieve?

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:33 am

A good question ! I sort of took it for granted that the O.P. meant not holding a point.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:18 am

I recall years ago when I ran NSTRA, a guy asked me to gun for him. He wanted to handle his dog because he had the problem you have. Dog got on it's first bird and I circled the dog and came from the front. WATCH the dog! Very important. I made the circle watching the dog and knew about where the bird was from the way the do was pointing. As I started toward the bird I saw the dog gather itself getting ready to move. Stop immediately, settle the dog and back out a couple steps. Come at a bit different angle, WATCH the dog. it start's to bunch up stop immediately! Settle and back away. Did that about five times if I remember right and the dog stood for the flush! Now the ugly part, the handler had no clue why his dog stood for me and not him! He stood there and saw everything that happened and didn't get it. You have to pay attention! I explained to him what I'd done and after trying it a couple time's later on, he got it and the problem went away. Handler error, pay attention to your dog! It will tell you just before it crash's! You go in to flush a bird, know about where the bird is by how the dog holds it's head. Go there but don't look for the bird, watch the dog! The bird will not let you step on it, listen for the flush! If the bird moves, the dog will let you know but you'll not know if your not watching your dog! That guy's problem went away! His dog was anticipating the flush and all I did was change the rule's a bit on him. The dog know's your gonna flush.

Was judging a Gun Dog stake years ago and watched a guy with a really nice young dog take his dog out. The dog was on point and as he came up the dog started to creep. He quickened his pace to the dog and the dog quicken it's pace. Last several steps were a foot race and the dog broke and took out the bird. Shouldn't have happened, handler error. Don't race the dog to the bird!
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by polmaise » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:14 pm

DonF wrote:The dog know's your gonna flush.

Don't race the dog to the bird!
+1
Never In Training ...Have I, or my mentors been the One to Flush the bird !
You can do that foot stompin stuff later If that is Your way :wink: . Helps tremendously when You go on to "Honour" with two or even three or more . :)
My best quote from "Gran dad " , was "Who is finding this Bird and who is flushing it, You can wait your turn to shoot it ,or let it fly ! Dog knows more than you son"

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by oldbeek » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:23 pm

DonF wrote:I recall years ago when I ran NSTRA, a guy asked me to gun for him. He wanted to handle his dog because he had the problem you have. Dog got on it's first bird and I circled the dog and came from the front. WATCH the dog! Very important. I made the circle watching the dog and knew about where the bird was from the way the do was pointing. As I started toward the bird I saw the dog gather itself getting ready to move. Stop immediately, settle the dog and back out a couple steps. Come at a bit different angle, WATCH the dog. it start's to bunch up stop immediately! Settle and back away. Did that about five times if I remember right and the dog stood for the flush! Now the ugly part, the handler had no clue why his dog stood for me and not him! He stood there and saw everything that happened and didn't get it. You have to pay attention! I explained to him what I'd done and after trying it a couple time's later on, he got it and the problem went away. Handler error, pay attention to your dog! It will tell you just before it crash's! You go in to flush a bird, know about where the bird is by how the dog holds it's head. Go there but don't look for the bird, watch the dog! The bird will not let you step on it, listen for the flush! If the bird moves, the dog will let you know but you'll not know if your not watching your dog! That guy's problem went away! His dog was anticipating the flush and all I did was change the rule's a bit on him. The dog know's your gonna flush.

Was judging a Gun Dog stake years ago and watched a guy with a really nice young dog take his dog out. The dog was on point and as he came up the dog started to creep. He quickened his pace to the dog and the dog quicken it's pace. Last several steps were a foot race and the dog broke and took out the bird. Shouldn't have happened, handler error. Don't race the dog to the bird!
Great answer Don. I got off topic. I was thinking of a dog not retrieving as I have a young GSP that will lay the bird down on retrieve. He also will break point occasionally and your cure is the exact thing he needs. His owner engages in the foot race to the bird. Time to train the owner. Now do you have a cure for laying the bird down on retrieve. He returns with a frozen quail in training all day long.ADDED Now that I read your post again, I realize the problem GSP I am working with never broke for me last weekend when hunting him. I always come in facing the dog and not from behind like the owner.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by setterpoint » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:36 am

the short ansewer is your dog has gotten away with what ever it's doing now ,like some of the rest not sure exactly what your saying
is the dog creeping in or just running in and busting bird, the dog knows your going to flush the bird and is trying to stay one step ahead of you
either way the dog has gotten away with what it's doing and it likes it
you are going to have to show the do
g that such behavior is not what you want and will result in a correction,
apparently the dog has done it the right way before so should be an easy fix

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:20 am

I believe your dog is trial-grounds-savvy, as already mentioned. That brings to mind how you trained the dog to be steady in the first place as to what you do at the trial grounds. A Brittany I am currently working with was stylishly steady and working like a dream. I dovetailed his retrieving into the mix and suddenly, he decided he wants to try to see the bird!?! So, he scents the bird, curls toward it, creeps a bit and then freezes once he spots it.
Now I use pigeons for this very reason, meaning if he crowds it too much, it will flush. He has crept up but not often flushed the birds. So today, I put the bird wind-side of a stand of lush clover, in sparse cover.
Sure enough, he caught scent quite a ways off then navigated towards the bird. As he did, the bird flushed. I simply recalled the dog, put a lead on him and heeled him straight back to the truck.
An observer said, "Why didn't you correct him or move him back, or caution him as he was creeping, or stop him before he crowded the bird?"
I told him, "I need that dog to exhaust his thoughts/options regarding the rules of play. If you are hunting in dense cover you won't even see your dog to caution him anyway. What I want is for THE DOG to buy on that if he does it my way, I will put that bird right in his mouth. If not, there is nothing for him/her." I want my dogs to CHOOSE to be steady because there is something in it for them. Corrected dogs are typically unreliable and often pull the most interesting tricks when they think they are not within eye-sight or....in an environment where they get away with stuff, as you have found, or better yet in a major event!
So once the Britt was expeditiously put away, I went out with another dog and was overly vocal with the other dog saying, "Atta booooy...ALRIGHT!!"
I could still hear that Britt squealing/whining from his crate as we headed out across the expansive field. Too bad for him. I guess he should have done it my way.
I have done this same thing even when I only have one dog. I put the unruly dog away, then go for a short walk all alone BUT, I still utter, "Atta boooy….good boy...ALRIGHT!" The point is, the dog thinks you're running another dog.
I know this Britt will crowd his next bird. I will also deploy a launcher in the near future to spring a bird before he even scents it. If he stops up, I will drop the bird for him (I even bring a dead bird along. You'd know why if you saw me shoot.) The bottom line is, "...stand there and your ultimate reward will be forthcoming. Move one iota....and straight back into the truck you go." :wink:

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:58 am

I have a 3 year old female Brittany that is doing the same thing at NSTRA trials. Finding the bird, going on a nice point and then breaking to catch the bird. She is what the others are saying "Trial Smart". She has learned she can catch the quail. She is currently with my trainer in Colorado and hopefully he can fix the problem, but I'm quite sure I'm still going to have to do some correcting during a trial to get it to sink in to her. Darn dog has all the potential in the world if she would just hold point all the time.
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by polmaise » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:45 am

DonF wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:18 am
Shouldn't have happened, handler error. Don't race the dog to the bird!
What He said .
Don't steal the Point {by moving in too early or too close in training} ,Don't steal the flush {by moving in to flush before a solid point is achieved for .......ages,(Do steal the retrieve this side of the pond in training)

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:25 am

polmaise wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:45 am
,(Do steal the retrieve this side of the pond in training)
+ 1.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:42 pm

Dakotazeb, your trainer should resolve your concerns but since you are typically the handler, you will need to understand the rules of engagement. Somehow, dogs know if YOU know.
I use wild pigeons to exhaust a dog's penchant for chasing. Once they get the picture RELIABLY, I transition into quail/chukar etc. but by then, we have built up a mutually trusting relationship. As such, a-bird-is-a-bird-is-a-bird (any upland species). They defer to me to do my part but...only when/if they do theirs.
Another aspect of the competitor or gentleman's/lady's gun dog is the fact that sometimes, a bird is missed (OR dropped but picked up by the handler while training). It is NOT always the dog's prerogative to have a bird, even when steady. This keeps the dog thinking AND his/her manners in check.
I have witnessed pen-raised quail simply ruin what once was a decent bird dog - more than once. The foundation work was short-circuited. The results can be a problem!
The road from young dog to brag dog can sometimes be a lengthy one. It's that old "...ounce of prevention..."

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:13 am

Oldbeek, as to your dog laying down on the retrieve, it is because he is feeling pressure to stay there when internally he has a strong urge to retrieve. The conflicting emotions cause a dog to sit or lay down. It is not a BIG issue and can be resolved with some patience BUT even more-so, with confidence within yourself that you WILL have everything you want from this dog.
EVERYBODY wants to jump on YOU for putting too much pressure on your dog but it is not ALWAYS the trainer. Some dogs handle pressure differently. Also, some dogs have a genetic contingent - that's right GENETIC, that makes them default to "I'm a good dog see....watch me sit down or lay down like you taught me. I had only 2 dogs EVER lay down on point here. They were littermates - one was trained earlier, one later in the season. Both were virtually finished, then out-of-the-blue....plunk! If someone had told me laying down had a genetic component 10 years ago, I would have laughed and said, "It's the trainer!" It is...and it isn't. Both of these dogs were VERY smart too. They are what I call "thinkers" and smart dogs/thinkers are much harder to train. You'd think it would be the other way around but.....
Re your laying down dog, to begin with you might embark on an quasi-"unbreaking" routine. It might go like this:
-birds are in a bird bag,
- dog is released to find birds,
-while your dog is a decent way out, throw a bird out of your bag make some exciting noises then shoot the bird down.
Your dog will have a number of reactions such as:
- stopping on the sight/flight of the bird,
- stopping as he sees you gun the bird down,
- running a short distance before trying to determine the right response (What was that?!?!?) which sometimes means stopping within scent of the downed bird due to the ambiguity,
- or, simply running right in to retrieve.
ALL of these responses are OK for now.
Repeat for ~ 4-8 birds over the course of a couple of days.
Now, plant your birds and take an assistant along. You handle the dog while your assistant guns. Get your dog to point but stay with him. Have your assistant get to the planted bird ASAP, flush and shoot. The assistant then gets the downed bird and brings it back to your STILL steady dog (even if you had to help him stay steady initially with a check cord around his waist perhaps) and toss the dog the dead bird. The patience and confidence you exude, with little to NO verbals which will add pressure and promote laying down - will determine how fast this is resolved.
Another process involves teaching your dog to lay down. Yes...I did say teach him to lay down. In-a-nutshell, once your dog is laying down, you say, "Whoop" (with a lilt as if you dropped something rather than "whoa" which rhymes with "NO!") then calmly help him stand up by pulling him forward - NOT handling hi to stand up. Basically, your dog learns to stand up from a laying down position with "Down" followed by "Whoop". At this juncture go back to working your dog but again, you stay with your dog and have your assistant gun. If your dog shows any sign of laying down, calmly "Whoop" him BUT do not touch him, use a check-cord or anything but don't handle him or he will feel added pressure and down he will go again. If he lays down, you need to reinforce the down-to-whoop process even more. DO NOT use "down" in the field EVER....just in the formal training at home.
Sorry...too much coffee!!!

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Dakotazeb » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:59 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:42 pm
Dakotazeb, your trainer should resolve your concerns but since you are typically the handler, you will need to understand the rules of engagement. Somehow, dogs know if YOU know.
I use wild pigeons to exhaust a dog's penchant for chasing. Once they get the picture RELIABLY, I transition into quail/chukar etc. but by then, we have built up a mutually trusting relationship. As such, a-bird-is-a-bird-is-a-bird (any upland species). They defer to me to do my part but...only when/if they do theirs.
Another aspect of the competitor or gentleman's/lady's gun dog is the fact that sometimes, a bird is missed (OR dropped but picked up by the handler while training). It is NOT always the dog's prerogative to have a bird, even when steady. This keeps the dog thinking AND his/her manners in check.
I have witnessed pen-raised quail simply ruin what once was a decent bird dog - more than once. The foundation work was short-circuited. The results can be a problem!
The road from young dog to brag dog can sometimes be a lengthy one. It's that old "...ounce of prevention..."
I've got my dog back from the trainer. Haven't had a chance to get her on any birds since she's been home but I am going to a NSTRA trial the 24th and 25th of this month so I'll see how she does. If her ripping birds continues I may have to get together with you in AZ for a little help. I suppose a quail hunt wouldn't be a bad idea also! :)
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:36 am

Thee are plenty of good suggestions on correcting the problem. You need to find the one that works best for your dog.

A short story to illustrate...
My first dog, back about 60 years ago, was a dropper. He was tough as pig iron and just about as hard headed. He absolutely lived and breathed to hunt. Every single year, we had to have a "come to Jesus" meeting somewhere in October, just to remind him that the rules had not changed. I won't get into the specifics, but the discipline I used on that dog would probably get me arrested today. He took it, shook it off and went back hunting. If I did some of what I used to do to Jack to pretty much any of the dogs I have today, they would curl up into a ball and be done, probably permanently.

When he was about eight, he started to give me trouble in the field with listening and I was really aggravated, because I had run him down and disciplined him twice on prior hunts and he was just not getting the memo. Soooo, in disgust, I put him at heel and walked with him through the fields for about an hour. In very short order, he was absolutely miserable, head hanging down, whining, rubbing my leg with his head...but we kept walking. I heeled him to the car, put him away and drove home.

Two days later, we went hunting again and his responsiveness was incredible. Apparently taking away his ability to hunt was the worst punishment I could have inflicted on him.

From that time, until he could no longer hunt, all I had to do was put him at heel for a few minutes if he was misbehaving.

As I said...lots of good suggestions have been offered. Find what works with your dog...what gets in his head and makes him WANT to do it YOUR way.

RayG

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:45 am

Dacotazeb, I'd be happy to meet up with you in AZ regardless of the outcome.
Yup....give your trainer the opportunity to see if you are derailing the training (unintentionally).
In support of what Ray offered above, I have had bird finding machines that just want to find the next bird short circuiting the trained retrieve. It's literally what drives them. Often times when I see this, ALL hunting stops. I call the dog in. Put a lead on him and give him a verbal, "What are you doing?!? You know better!" Then, we sit for 5 minutes. The verbal is nothing more than a conveyance of my disappointment. The key is, I take away what they want most - to find another bird.
So, we sit and ponder the right way to do the job before hunting on. If she/he doesn't respond appropriately on the next find, the lead comes back out and back to the truck we go. I then take out another dog and whoop it up as I send him/her off. I've even done this with a single dog. After putting the errant dog away, I pretend I have another dog and use the same verbiage as if I was releasing a second dog. The whining from back in the truck carries a LONG way. :wink:
Oh yeah....they aren't stupid.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:31 am

The trainers she has been with say that part of the problem is that her prey drive is over the top. Guess that's both good and bad! :?
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Sharon » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:35 pm

That's only good, only good! :)
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by polmaise » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:26 pm

Sevensetters wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:33 am
I have a six year old English Setter that is a 2 time and close to a 3 time NSTRA Champion, and she has stop holding her birds during a field Trail. I have never had one to do this at stage of of life, I am looking suggests to help me correct this problem.
Personally I am Lost ,coming in at the end of the thread having read all the comments/posts.
Hope you get the answer you are looking for.

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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by DonF » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:28 am

Dakotazeb wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:59 am
Featherfinder wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:42 pm
Dakotazeb, your trainer should resolve your concerns but since you are typically the handler, you will need to understand the rules of engagement. Somehow, dogs know if YOU know.
I use wild pigeons to exhaust a dog's penchant for chasing. Once they get the picture RELIABLY, I transition into quail/chukar etc. but by then, we have built up a mutually trusting relationship. As such, a-bird-is-a-bird-is-a-bird (any upland species). They defer to me to do my part but...only when/if they do theirs.
Another aspect of the competitor or gentleman's/lady's gun dog is the fact that sometimes, a bird is missed (OR dropped but picked up by the handler while training). It is NOT always the dog's prerogative to have a bird, even when steady. This keeps the dog thinking AND his/her manners in check.
I have witnessed pen-raised quail simply ruin what once was a decent bird dog - more than once. The foundation work was short-circuited. The results can be a problem!
The road from young dog to brag dog can sometimes be a lengthy one. It's that old "...ounce of prevention..."
I've got my dog back from the trainer. Haven't had a chance to get her on any birds since she's been home but I am going to a NSTRA trial the 24th and 25th of this month so I'll see how she does. If her ripping birds continues I may have to get together with you in AZ for a little help. I suppose a quail hunt wouldn't be a bad idea also! :)
Quail hunt may not accomplish a thing. Problem is the birds. Your hunting wild quail and trialing on pen raised quail. If the dog doesn't know the difference between them it will learn quickly!

I had a guy bring over a dog that was supposed to have to much prey drive several years ago. Dog came from a shooting preserve and they gave up on it. Had the dog pointing in about 20 min. You need to understand what the dog want's, the bird. It's that simple! Your job is to teach the dog how to get the bird. I start dog's and finish them with remote launcher's. Using them allow's me to use a pigeon and make it act like a wild bird. I keep my mouth shut! If you use pen raised bird's in the trap, you can't be sure what will happen when you launch. They might fly off a bit and sit down in front of your dog, bad deal. That happens and what is being taught is that birds don't fly far and when they land they are pooped and easy to catch. Use the pigeon and the bird simply fly's away! Pay attention to what your training. Training is a bad word, don't actually train your dog. You train it and you require it to do what you want. Teach your dog how to get the bird, then it learn's what to do to get what it want's and in the end, it's gonna be the same thing you wanted to teach! Pay attention, pay attention, pay attention to what your doing!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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Dakotazeb
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Re: Not holding Birds

Post by Dakotazeb » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:47 am

DonF wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:28 am
Quail hunt may not accomplish a thing. Problem is the birds. Your hunting wild quail and trialing on pen raised quail. If the dog doesn't know the difference between them it will learn quickly!
I don't hunt wild quail.
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