Start em Young

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Re: Start em Young

Post by averageguy » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:34 am

Bill T, I think the questions you ask indicate the answer. Yes, I think Pro Trainers find the FF programs they use produce results faster than PR based methods. Key to that is the Pros are most often brought dogs at 10 or more months of age which often have missed out on all the excellent early development work that I give my puppies, and I suspect you give yours, and apparently Robert gives his.

And frankly culture has a great deal to do with it as evidenced in this thread. When newbies request advice on training their first gundogs, most often the advice they hear in the US is they must be FF'd to be reliable retrievers, PR is for foo foo low drive dogs and handlers and will fail when you get a bold dog in the field ... So a whole lot of newbies march to that drum without having tried anything else. The retriever forum boards and otherwise are full of folks who have trained one or two dogs repeating the Mantra that FF solves everything and no dog will ever be reliable without it ... A person such as myself who expresses a different point of view will take some heat, as I have here. The old guard culture stifles it.

It bears repeating - all other venues of working dogs in the US fully embrace PR methods at an early age. OB, Drug Dogs, Police Work, Tracking, Herding. It is only the Gundog culture in the US that lags in its use.

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Re: Start em Young

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:47 am

I believe PR (Terminology) is not an exact comparison to UK Non e-collar training? To confuse even further ,in the UK if the term PR was used it would be perceived by our newbies marching to the drum of Clicker or Treat training :D
For future clarification I have decided to use Ne-C "Non e-Collar" when referring to UK style training for Gun Dogs :lol:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:37 am

Now I really will be confused Robert ! :lol: It took me ages to learn what all the various descriptive letters and other gundog jargon meant and now you want to add another one !? :lol: As a dyed in the wool technophobe I don't even have a cell phone and using gundog sites on computers really strains my poor wee brain cell ! Please do as we try to do with dogs ….."Keep it simple stupid !" :lol:

So, yes, do start puppies young ….if you are capable of making early training into a very enjoyable game for a young puppy.

Bill T.
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Re: Start em Young

Post by crackerd » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:31 am

Bill, I can simplify it for you apropos Robt.'s labeling above - you're heretofore a Scottish RedNe-c! (That is, unless you prefer to be a Brexit RedNe-c!)

MG

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Re: Start em Young

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:29 pm

averageguy wrote: It bears repeating - all other venues of working dogs in the US fully embrace PR methods at an early age. OB, Drug Dogs, Police Work, Tracking, Herding. It is only the Gundog culture in the US that lags in its use.
In my experience visually when I visited the USA that is not the case (maybe I just seen the ones I wanted to see) ?. The Gundog Culture in the US is Huge !! Vast in diversity and culture state to state ! We in little Scotland can throw a rock at the neighbours window and yet have miles to see another ,depending on where you are and even then they talk a different dialect ! :lol:
For retrievers as an example ..Your Man Hillman would come across all states as "PR" ..Including Public Relations when it comes to Gun Dog Training with a Puppy or "Start em Young" ?...Anyhow, I was under the extreme impression that any e-collar conditioning and training was to RE , Re-Enforce already known commands to the dog that had previously learned ? ....which ,is why cj....I think posted his own Trail .?

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Re: Start em Young

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:01 pm

crackerd wrote: you're heretofore a Scottish RedNe-c! (That is, unless you prefer to be a Brexit RedNe-c!)

MG
:lol: So that's what I am ….and here was me thinking I'm just another Haggis basher with a whistle and a dug ! :lol:

Many of my family emigrated to the States and to Canada and to S. Africa and Australia..... I long ago lost contact with almost all of them but I have what I need and like here in Scotland so I have never been outside of the U.K. except to southern Ireland …..another place I love being in. It's the people that make a place or a country what it is.

I was in Southern Ireland some years ago on a fishing holiday ...but I wasn't catching much until the owner of the B + B discovered that my other sport of training and working and trialing gundogs was the same as his. We got roaringly drunk together that night and he introduced me to his fishing mates as …"This is Bill, a good friend of mine , treat him as one of the boys !" - - - and they did. They took me to places I'd never have found and told me what fishing methods worked in each place and after that I caught fish to my hearts content ! I like the Irish, they remind me of the folk we in the gundog world call "The Fife Mafia !" - - - - for more info on them contact Robert (Polmaise.) :lol:

Scotland actually has three languages, English, Gaelic and "Doric." Like most Scots Robert and I speak a mixture of English and Doric and Robert is correct when he says that different parts of Scotland have different dialects. Back when I was at school the teachers did their best to strongly discourage us from using Doric words or ways of speaking but they had little success. Those words and phrases were deeply embedded into our culture.


When an American boy of about 7 -8 years old was put into my school class the poor lad could understand the teacher but when we talked to him out in the playground he was baffled by our usual way of speaking. My son had a very similar experience when we moved from Forfar to Edinburgh. My son had developed a quite definite Doric way of speaking and it took him a little while to get the hang of the Edinburgh version .


I was present when an English guide dog trainer paid us a visit up at the Forfar guide dog centre. He had to ask me for a translation when a wee boy of about 5 or 6 said to him as we got a dog out of the van …… "Eh the streh hez fawin oot o yer ven , mester."

I burst out laughing as I translated this into …." All the straw has fallen out of your van mister." The Director of Training , another Englishman , was wanting to send me to elocution lessons after hearing me speak. I refused to go , I'm quite proud of my accent . I can speak, read and write English quite well but I am unashamedly a Scot.


Sorry for the red herring ! :roll:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by cjhills » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:27 pm

Maybe that is why I never understand what the heck Polmaise is saying. I do think you guys are a lot better at actually training dogs than most of the trainers over here.
The ecollar can make a pretty good trainer out of almost anybody with a little knowledge and common sense. Even makes some people that have neither pretty good if they get ahold of a decent dog occasionally. Everybody is looking for a Gimmick....Cj

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Re: Start em Young

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:43 pm

Trekmoor wrote:
crackerd wrote: you're heretofore a Scottish RedNe-c! (That is, unless you prefer to be a Brexit RedNe-c!)

MG
:lol: So that's what I am ….and here was me thinking I'm just another Haggis basher with a whistle and a dug ! :lol:

Many of my family emigrated to the States and to Canada and to S. Africa and Australia..... I long ago lost contact with almost all of them but I have what I need and like here in Scotland so I have never been outside of the U.K. except to southern Ireland …..another place I love being in. It's the people that make a place or a country what it is.

I was in Southern Ireland some years ago on a fishing holiday ...but I wasn't catching much until the owner of the B + B discovered that my other sport of training and working and trialing gundogs was the same as his. We got roaringly drunk together that night and he introduced me to his fishing mates as …"This is Bill, a good friend of mine , treat him as one of the boys !" - - - and they did. They took me to places I'd never have found and told me what fishing methods worked in each place and after that I caught fish to my hearts content ! I like the Irish, they remind me of the folk we in the gundog world call "The Fife Mafia !" - - - - for more info on them contact Robert (Polmaise.) :lol:

Scotland actually has three languages, English, Gaelic and "Doric." Like most Scots Robert and I speak a mixture of English and Doric and Robert is correct when he says that different parts of Scotland have different dialects. Back when I was at school the teachers did their best to strongly discourage us from using Doric words or ways of speaking but they had little success. Those words and phrases were deeply embedded into our culture.


When an American boy of about 7 -8 years old was put into my school class the poor lad could understand the teacher but when we talked to him out in the playground he was baffled by our usual way of speaking. My son had a very similar experience when we moved from Forfar to Edinburgh. My son had developed a quite definite Doric way of speaking and it took him a little while to get the hang of the Edinburgh version .


I was present when an English guide dog trainer paid us a visit up at the Forfar guide dog centre. He had to ask me for a translation when a wee boy of about 5 or 6 said to him as we got a dog out of the van …… "Eh the streh hez fawin oot o yer ven , mester."

I burst out laughing as I translated this into …." All the straw has fallen out of your van mister." The Director of Training , another Englishman , was wanting to send me to elocution lessons after hearing me speak. I refused to go , I'm quite proud of my accent . I can speak, read and write English quite well but I am unashamedly a Scot.


Sorry for the red herring ! :roll:

Bill T.
I miss yer ramblings on the other channel Bill. But the the times in real life are better than on line :wink:
My favourite is "Stravaiging" ,comes from way back (for me) when a young lad was hunting his spaniel in light cover ,and the dog was showing all the signs of activity with nose down and waggy tail ,looking all energetic like . "Do like the style of the wee dug" ..He said . .....Aye , but if you could stop it from Stravaiging all over the place and hunt with You , It would be a lot more productive in producing game for you both ,rather than itself . :roll: :wink: :lol:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:14 am

cjhills wrote:Maybe that is why I never understand what the heck Polmaise is saying. .Cj
Dinnae fash yersel aboot no unnerstaunnin Polmaise ....naebody ower here unnerstaunds him either ! :lol:


That is the queens English as it is spoken here in Haggisland ! :lol:

One thing is for sure. If a British pro trainer were to answer a newbies question about retrieving on one of our gundog forums by telling the newbie to get an e-collar and to begin to train a pup F.F. , not only would he get very few clients, he'd be howled down and receive hate mail.

It is a very different culture in some ways. We depend upon our pups having sufficient "natural retrieve" bred into them in order to be able to train them. From what I've read on here, your pups also have that "natural retrieve" but many of you still like to use F.F. to achieve a "finished dog " ? In Britain we don't find it neccessary to do that to get a finished dog and although I cannot be certain I strongly suspect our dogs are every bit as keen and as good at retrieving game as yours are.


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Re: Start em Young

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:39 am

Trekmoor wrote:
cjhills wrote:Maybe that is why I never understand what the heck Polmaise is saying. .Cj
Dinnae fash yersel aboot no unnerstaunnin Polmaise ....naebody ower here unnerstaunds him either ! :lol:


That is the queens English as it is spoken here in Haggisland ! :lol:

One thing is for sure. If a British pro trainer were to answer a newbies question about retrieving on one of our gundog forums by telling the newbie to get an e-collar and to begin to train a pup F.F. , not only would he get very few clients, he'd be howled down and receive hate mail.

It is a very different culture in some ways. We depend upon our pups having sufficient "natural retrieve" bred into them in order to be able to train them. From what I've read on here, your pups also have that "natural retrieve" but many of you still like to use F.F. to achieve a "finished dog " ? In Britain we don't find it neccessary to do that to get a finished dog and although I cannot be certain I strongly suspect our dogs are every bit as keen and as good at retrieving game as yours are.


Thanks,T
One of the issues over here is that very few AKC and I believe no AF field trials require a retrieve. Because of that and force fetch a lot of the natural retrieve is being bred out of some breeds. Some force fetch programs are brutal. I seen a well known trainer break a dogs leg doing a force retrive training. I also had 3 AKC Master dogs before I learned that you could not passaMaster test without a force retrieve. Silly me. What was I thinking.....Cj

Bill T.
Thanks, T

One issue we have over here is that very few AKC and I believe no AF pointing dog trials require a retrieve. Because of that and Force Retrieve training The natural retrieve is getting lost in some breeds.
Some force retrieve programs are brutal. I seen a well known trainer break a dogs leg doing a force retrieve.
I had 3 AKC Master titled dogs before I learned that you could not pass a master test without a force retrieve. What wasI thinking......CJ
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Re: Start em Young

Post by averageguy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:46 am

BIll T, The pros are alot better at FF than are an amateur training a few dogs such as myself. The DVD programs that have come out have been very helpful to the masses in better preparing amateurs such as myself. Even better twice I bought a short 1:1 session with a talented Pro Trainer and got their eyes on me working with my dog during our FF training. Both times the major benefit was the Pro telling me I was on the right track. Obviously FF done right works, but I think alot of amateurs such as myself have a higher hurdle to get it right.

But more importantly, looking back, I feel all of my puppies had such excellent natural retrieve that there was really had no need to put them through a traditional FF program. I was following the herd because of what I heard. There are alternatives that are producing excellent results. You and your dogs are testament to it.

Robert, I have a library of Bill Hillman's DVDs. Excellent products and I really enjoy learning from him and his approach. But he is absolutely in a minority in the US at the moment. But there is visible change around for sure. I know a DD breeder who uses alot of marker training PR in her early development and has taken her dogs through the VJP, HZP, VGP test system using that approach. She also makes use of an ecollar in the proofing phase of her training. Many of her clients buying puppies are doing the same. It is happening for sure, but nothing like the volume in other arenas in the US. The US Gundog world lags.

My point in this thread is to help amateurs learn about one the most powerful approaches to shaping their puppies from an early age I know of. They can achieve such excellent results and be headed in the right direction in many areas before the puppy becomes older and bolder entering the stages where many first time trainers really struggle. We see the later over and over on these boards. One recent post was a puppy which would bolt the minute its kennel door was opened. That could have been avoided starting at 10 weeks of age using PR for example.

I have had so much success working with puppies early and often that my comments reflect it. Puppies thrive on it and then so do their handlers.

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Re: Start em Young

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 am

The puppy in the above post bolting out the door problem could be cured in a couple times of bumping him with the door.
I never trained a pointing dog to "sit" because I was told it would cause issues later on. The female I have as a house dog needed to learn to "sit on command'", I told her sit and pushed her butt down. Three times was all it took and she sits with voice,hand or whistle. Very simple and easy. She also learns in the process to obey me in other training later on. This dog will be a year old on Valentine's day. She has never been on a leash in her life. She is collar conditioned and wears it at all times in the field. She has a very good recall, heels. is steady to WSF. Her retrieve is a little shaky but will improve. She is bit soft in her temperament. She comes from a long line of naturally talented bird dogs. The only command she learned from treats was "Kennel". Most of her training is praise for good and Ignore bad.
I am not questioning treat training, I like it. But dogs in their natural state, do not learn from treats. They learn by obeying a leader and they communicate by body language. I always strive to learn that language...Cj
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Re: Start em Young

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:30 am

Just in case anyone is thinking this …. I am not a "positive only" dog trainer. In fact I got turfed off a British "positive only" forum just a couple of years back for even suggesting to a newbie that what he wanted to train for could be better trained for by more "ancient and outdated methods." That bit inside the little brackets is pretty much how the mods on that forum described my methods . :roll:

I refuse to carry a bag of food treats or a cuddly toy around with me for the rest of a dog's working life just to keep a dog's willingness to obey levels well topped up ! If a well timed correction , either physical or vocal will very quickly and clearly make "dog sense" to a dog then I will probably give that correction.

I train "positive" most of the time and switch over to negative when I think it right to do so.

A few (very few) people in Britain have now won a few trials while claiming to only use positive methods . Good luck to them but it takes more than a few swallows to make a summer.

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Re: Start em Young

Post by averageguy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:55 pm

S
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Re: Start em Young

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:16 pm

averageguy wrote:
Robert, I have a library of Bill Hillman's DVDs. Excellent products and I really enjoy learning from him and his approach. But he is absolutely in a minority in the US at the moment.
The US Gundog world lags.

. Puppies thrive on it and then so do their handlers.
Not what I am understanding or hearing ? with regards Retrievers In Derby level or Field Trials ! ...But I am sure the media machine will encroach the world of Hunt Tests,and pretty soon cross over in merchandise to Hunt/Point . :wink:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by averageguy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:21 pm

polmaise wrote:
averageguy wrote:
Robert, I have a library of Bill Hillman's DVDs. Excellent products and I really enjoy learning from him and his approach. But he is absolutely in a minority in the US at the moment.
The US Gundog world lags.

. Puppies thrive on it and then so do their handlers.
Not what I am understanding or hearing ? with regards Retrievers In Derby level or Field Trials ! ...But I am sure the media machine will encroach the world of Hunt Tests,and pretty soon cross over in merchandise to Hunt/Point . :wink:
If your sources are suggesting the competitive Retriever scene in the US has predominately gone away from FF and use of ecollars your sources are WAY OFF is all I can tell you.

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Re: Start em Young

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:33 pm

averageguy wrote: If your sources are suggesting the competitive Retriever scene in the US has predominately gone away from FF and use of ecollars your sources are WAY OFF is all I can tell you.
Nope ! Because Hillman also uses eCollar :roll: :wink: . :lol:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:49 pm

averageguy wrote:

The comment regarding not wanting to carry a bag of treats around is way off the mark.

Everyone using the PR marker/treat approach weans the dog off the treats over time using verbal praise in its place.
I am very pleased to hear that for on the few occasions when I do use treats I wean the pup off them again just as soon as I can. Over the last year or two however I have been hearing from a gundog man in Britain who does use treats and positive only. He says that the latest thinking among the P.O. folk is that it is better to continually reinforce the command by giving treats than to permit the response to the command to begin to become "extinct " by withdrawing them ?


It all seems a bit hazy and uncertain to me so I suppose I will just have to continue on as a dinosaur ! :lol:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by averageguy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:34 pm

Seems to me I am hearing more commonality here than I thought I heard initially.

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Re: Start em Young

Post by Settertude » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:39 pm

averageguy wrote:My Dog and I took a 2 hour hunt this morning in an open to the public, large field of weedy grass cover 2-4 feet in height. 2 days of opening weekend public lands hunting pressure, mild weather, low bird numbers and a thinner than ideal cover made for running wild flushing pheasants. About 1.5 hours into the hunt, I wild flushed a woodcock while my dog was working out of sight in the cover about 65 yards from me. I identified the woodcock, and recovered in time to fire once and downed it. (While my dog has pointed a few woodcock on the Spring Migrations we have never hunted them and I wanted to get him a retrieve in hopes that he would be more apt to hunt and point them should we come across them in the fall.) My dog sprang up from the cover looking my way at the shot but of course had no mark. I toned him in with the ecollar as I walked to my mark in the 4 foot tall weedy grass cover and when he arrived on a run, I told him to "Hunt Dead". He did, for quite awhile and expanded his search when he did not come up with it. He persisted and came up with the bird which was farther out than the Mark I had used to start him on Hunt Dead.

I HATE to loose a bird. Ever. So I develop my puppies from a baby on up to excel at hunting dead. I start at 8-9 weeks tossing a treat into the short grass in the yard while the puppy is watching. It will naturally go to the treat immediately and as it does I am saying "Dead, Hunt Dead" and giving a hand signal to the spot on the ground where the puppy is already heading. I condition this for a few days and then do the same while the puppy is not looking. I simply get within a few feet of the puppy, motion with hand towards where I have already placed a treat when the puppy was not looking, and use the "Dead, Hunt Dead" command and hand signal. They will go there immediately and eagerly, and find the treat. I then switch the drill to using a cold dead bird I have already introduced prior and will start tossing it into increasingly taller cover. I call the puppy over on the downwind side, say Dead, Hunt Dead and motion with my hand towards the cover where I tossed the bird. I use excited praise when the puppy emerges from the cover proudly carrying the bird. The puppies love it! I work the same drill using a puppy bumper with wings zip tied to them. Down the road I introduce gunfire and while the puppy is out exploring I will toss the bumper into cover, fire a blank and call the puppy back to "Hunt Dead". I am conditioning the puppy that gun fire means there is going to be a bird to be recovered, always (they will learn later that I miss, some days more than others :D ). They will soon come running towards gunfire when they hear it.

My dogs have consistently excelled at recovering downed game and a key to it is the zero pressure conditioning I have just described starting at 8 -9 weeks of age when I acquire my puppies.

This is one example of what I am urging folks to do with their puppies. FF programs have their place and benefits when a puppy is 8 months or older but will never yield the same benefits for life that the drills I am describing here will/do.

This is just one area of early development, but a key one. And who cannot do what I just described with their puppies?
I like this technique a lot. Thanks for posting.

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Re: Start em Young

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:48 pm

Actually the main reason for using treats is to get a quick early response. I want my dogs to learn a conditioned response to my command. IE "sit" means butt on the ground. It is very easy to teach a dog to do that and once it is done it lasts forever.
I don't want my dog to learn "if I sit I get a treat or maybe if sit does not work I will try down or whatever else I know that might work". Sooner or later the day comes when the dog decides no treat no sit.
I guess I did not realize AG was teaching a class on training, sorry. Maybe he is right and his methods and dogs are better than every body elses. But I have seen a lot of very good, happy dogs trained by conditioned response. It is one thing to buy the very best puppy you can find and make yourself a decent bird dog. It is totally different to take any dog that comes down the road and get payed to make it into somebody else's decent bird dog....Cj

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Re: Start em Young

Post by averageguy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:00 pm

Well CJ I have never remotely implied it was my way. I in no way invented marker treat training and posted nothing to infer something as silly as that. Also never have you been my prime audience in this thread as you are obviously dead set against whatever I might advocate. No matter it is obvious others are listening and finding some value. Most amateurs do buy a well bred puppy and set out to train it and that is the target audience of this thread. The title was intentional as a great deal can be accomplished with young puppies using the correct no pressure approaches. Which includes PR and a lot of exposure. PS your claims marker treat training does not result in conditioned responses is wrong. :arrow:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:26 pm

Trekmoor wrote: I am very pleased to hear that for on the few occasions when I do use treats I wean the pup off them again just as soon as I can. Over the last year or two however I have been hearing from a gundog man in Britain who does use treats and positive only. He says that the latest thinking among the P.O. folk is that it is better to continually reinforce the command by giving treats than to permit the response to the command to begin to become "extinct " by withdrawing them ?


It all seems a bit hazy and uncertain to me so I suppose I will just have to continue on as a dinosaur ! :lol:

Bill T.
A bloke in Ireland doesn't feed the dog for a day ,then throws raw Tripe in some thick brambles and says "Hunt on " .....Then calls it back in when it is fed .
Is that PR ,NP or Treat Training ? :?:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:57 pm

Sounds a bit like the "Flush the sausage" method of training dogs that are sticky on their points to flush at once on command. :lol:

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Re: Start em Young

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:58 pm

Nah! It was just a Puppy retriever Bill . :wink:
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Re: Start em Young

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:18 pm

"Start em Young" as the title implies, has many advantages. I like to explain it this way to novices. I control all the pieces/parts. I set the stage. Subsequently (in this early going) pup is cut loose. He/she gets to make choices and draw conclusions from said choices. In this way, the pup/dog experiences success from actions of his/her own volition rather than through check cords/correction/discipline (even though I have a great deal of control over the outcome :wink: ). At this time, excessive human intervention/speaking/commands often undermines the lesson. If nothing else, it extends the learning curve or worst yet, contributes to ambiguity for the dog.
I prefer having pups here at 5-6 months for formal training. By ~1 year of age, they are finished by my definition: handling quietly, reliably steady, retrieving to hand, etc.
Admittedly, I have had dogs here that take me to task. By this I mean they insist on being dominant in their efforts to manipulate me/their surroundings/the processes. Typically, they are older than 5-6 months. These types of dogs can make PR....interesting. Consider that while this is taking place, the pup's owner is hoping his/her dog will be returned sooner rather than later.
Most of our dogs -at least the good ones - have been bred for centuries to display certain admirable natural ability traits. They are canine athletes performing at a level that has stringent physical AND mental demands. They need to navigate the tough challenges that are day-to-day in our sport even in adverse weather. They need to be biddable yet relentless - strong and smart - reliable and resilient, performing with a fiery yet co-operative prey drive. I personally have never seen a Shih-Tzu or Great Dane under these same demands on a day-to-day basis. Perhaps I need to get out more? Having someone that teaches Foo-foo to roll over is not necessarily going to appreciate some of my goals/philosophies for a brag bird dog. I can accept that.
I believe it is a mountainous challenge - time being a considerable constraint - to get the results that I require and my customers expect from my canine pupils using PR ONLY. I am not saying it can't be done. Then again, it won't be the first time I've been wrong.
Starting them early goes a long way.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

averageguy
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Re: Start em Young

Post by averageguy » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:02 am

Exposure and early development are the foundation of how I work with my young puppies. Marker/Treat training is just one facet and I have touched on more important early development drills I use, in this thread. Those drills are also PR based however e.g. return to me with the dummy and I will toss it again, point and you will get a shot bird to retrieve, go the direction I go and we will find exciting wild game ... and little to no pressure is involved in those early on stages.

The success of using Marker/Treat for teaching OB subjects is well documented and that is an area of Gundog training where I use it most. At a much younger age than pressure based methods can productively be applied to a puppy. A properly introduced and used ecollar is how I am able to ensure the lessons taught in the house and yard carry over well to the field. Some other trainers are able to get those same results without an ecollar and I am glad to learn from them where and when I can. I am not looking to give up my ecollar as used right I find it to be invaluable.

Puppies which have been developed a great deal at an early age require less use of force down the road is my experience. The emphasis is not using 100% PR to arrive at the completely finished Gundog, but rather how PR methods can be used to shape puppies at a much earlier age than pressure can be productively applied to them. The PR methods are much easier for a less experienced trainer working with a young puppy to apply with far less risk at an early age. Which positions the trainer and their puppy for an easier go down the road.

The standard response for decades in the Gundog world is "let them be puppies" urging the new owners to wait until the pups are 10 months or more and then begin applying pressure based training methods. I am sharing the opposite approach which has worked extremely well for me and my puppies. Start at a very young age using non-pressure based methods, which mostly equates to PR. I mentioned once before but George Hickox demonstrates marker/treat conditioning work he is using on very young EP puppies in his Great Beginnings DVD, Leerburg has a huge volume of materials on the subject, Bill Hillman uses a great deal of PR in his training and it is the foundation and driving force of it all the way through.

We do not lack for evidence of the power/success of PR methods in training Gundogs.

Multiple folks have posted it can't be done, or it can't be done in a short period of time, or the dog will not be reliable once it becomes older and bolder. Which ignores the post I made in this thread of the Lady and her GPS which are doing it and doing it at a young age. High drive Dogs which have earned AFC and some FC titles among many other titles demonstrating a great deal of high level trained performance.

Someone bringing a pro an out of control wild child which has missed out on months of early development work that could have and should have been done is obviously not the context of the thread I started here. If you miss the window of early development things get more difficult.

Which is why I started this thread and shared a different approach which has worked very well for me over the years and is working well for many others. Just have to be willing to see the evidence of it, which is all around and growing.

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