First Season Problems

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apsjodin
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First Season Problems

Post by apsjodin » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:31 pm

So I got a new pup last fall, a bracco italiano. She has a very good nose, strong prey drive, and a good point. I spent the summer working her on pigeons in releasers, probably about once a week on average. She was really doing well by the end of the summer - working the training areas nicely, pointing nicely, and pretty reliably steady to the flush by the end of the summer. I was feeling pretty proud of her (and myself, considering I haven't had/trained a birddog in close to 15 years). I have also been working her on pen raised quail this fall.

As hunting season approached you can all relate to how excited I was to get my new pup out doing the real thing. (She was 15 months old as the season began in September). So we got out most weekends throughout the season, successfully hunted wild grouse, woodcock, and pheasants, basically all that we have to offer here in Minnesota. Now here comes the rub: as the season progressed my young dog became less steady on point - pressuring and bumping more and more birds, has become overly concerned with following tracks and not scenting the air for the actual bird (which has caused many an unintentional flush), has acquired a taste for chasing birds, has developed a flagging problem, and generally appears to have become a less effective hunting dog than when we started the season. She is better at finding birds than when we started the season; however, as can be assumed from the above list of problems, I don't get much of a chance at shooting may of them. I had high hopes of wild birds improving her in all the ways that she seems to be going down hill. Now as my hunting season is close to wrapping up I am reflecting and trying to figure out what has gone wrong.

Any thoughts on the causes of these failings? From reading numerous other posts I am seeing a lot of problems that can develop from pen raised birds, especially for a novice trainer such as myself who may very well be making a lot of mistakes unwittingly. Or is this simply the growing pains of a first season with a new dog? It has been so long since I had a first season that I don't remember what it is like. All I can remember is the quality performance of my mature weimaraner 15 years ago, which isn't a fair comparison for my new dog. Do I need to scrap the pen raised birds altogether and just get her on wild birds as much as I can, even if this means far fewer birds in general? She does get wild pheasant contact 3 to 4 days a week as we go for walks around where I live. A lot of the time these birds are in thick cover (like cattails) or in wooded strips where they run. Either way, she has a hard time figuring out how to point these birds, and rarely does. Generally, she gets excited because they are on the move and just chases.

Before putting in all of the training I have, my pup would point from a nice distance and hold her point fairly well (for a young dog), and with style (on pen raised birds). I feel like I am ruining a good dog by my efforts to get her on birds and work on her steadiness. I haven't been going about this willy-nily either. I have been reading, watching videos, talking to people, and generally trying to learn as much as I can before I proceed with a training technique. I'm at a bit of a loss and a bit disheartened as my hunting season comes to a close. What should I be doing between now and next September to get my dog ready for a good second season?

cjhills
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Re: First Season Problems

Post by cjhills » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:53 pm

First question do you shoot accidental flushes? It does not sound like the pen raised bird are a issue if the problem started on wild birds. Sometimes the young dogs we think are trained turn out to need more work when they get a little age and independence.
You are going to need to take the chase out. I have no Bracco experience so I will leave it to some of the launcher trainers on here to help you with that. Work on steady to flush and a solid whoa.......Cj

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isonychia
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Re: First Season Problems

Post by isonychia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:03 pm

Echoing CJ about the only thing I would do is just to make sure I wasn't shooting birds for the dog that the dog flushed on... then again you will be coming into the spring with an almost 2 year old pup. I would start the steady process if you feel your dog has the intensity he needs on birds. The steadiness process will reinforce what you want and that chasing birds is not OK. I never expect much out of a dog's first season on wild birds either, especially grouse and runners like wild pheasant. Your dog may be trying to figure out the ins and outs on pinning down runners. Did he do best on woodcock?

Steady the dog
Steady yourself (no shooting wild flushes)
Be patient... like 2 seasons or more patient.

shags
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Re: First Season Problems

Post by shags » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:37 am

A 15 month old dog is still a puppy, so it seems like you are expecting an awful lot from your dog. You worked on steadying over the summer, right? That makes the dog about a year old going through all that; way too young IMO. A pup might be able to learn to be steady to wing and/or shot but they don't have the maturity to apply those 'rules' to different situations...so basically they know little more than a parlor trick, done outdoors. It sounds to me like you got way ahead of yourself regarding expectations from a puppy.

When a dog becomes progressively more unglued, it's because it's been allowed to have little breaches of manners. Young dogs need to have manners reinforced, so a handler can't excuse misbehaviors and then expect previous training to stick. Think back honestly and determine if you took shots that maybe you shouldn't have due to the dog's conduct. If you want a very young dog to be steady, you need to make him be steady every single time until he's very trustworthy. Any dog can screw up once in a while, and it doesn't always mean going back to square one in training, but with young immature dogs you can't let things slide.

IME flagging that develops over time like your dog's has, is often the result of trainer error. It's a sign of having been pushed too hard and too fast; the dog wants to take the bird out and chase but knows it shouldn't. Or, the presence of the bird makes the dog anxious and unsure; have you lost your cool because of the dog's mistakes, or maybe verbally intimidate the dog with whoa-ing when you saw maybe he's ready to bust a bird?

I think going forward I'd treat my training sessions like hunting outings, and my hunting outings like training sessions to get the dog where you want him as far as manners. That could involve you giving up a season of shooting in order to get the dog right. It sounds like you have a talented willing pup and the backward slide can be reversed with some patience.

cjhills
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Re: First Season Problems

Post by cjhills » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:38 am

there is a trainer who lives close to me, who breeds Bracco. He could probably offer some tips. Maybe you know him. If not check out ""Autumn Breeze kennels"......Cj

apsjodin
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Re: First Season Problems

Post by apsjodin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:10 pm

Thanks to all of you who have replied so far. I'm sure there have been a few times I or a hunting partner shot a bird when it was handled poorly. With that noted, I will be more conscientious of only shooting properly handled birds. Thank you for the feedback on the pace that I have been working at. It is good to get an idea of where I should be at and where I may have gotten ahead of myself. I have probably been putting too much pressure on her too early, particularly in terms of steadiness. I've been reading about flagging and am seeing where I have made some mistakes. I am sure I am too eager to have a good dog too soon. I am under the impression that flagging is pretty difficult to correct. Any thoughts?

shags
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Re: First Season Problems

Post by shags » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:53 am

I had a flagger that I suspect had been abused by his trainer in the early days of his development. IME flagging is difficult to correct, and can escalate and/or turn into worse problems if not handled carefully. By worse, I mean blinking or circling.

The dog was 2-3 years old when I got him home. After I got this dog home, we went to a Rick Smith seminar and I used the techniques I learned there to get some bonding in regards to training with the dog. Then I put this dog with a trainer whom I trusted, who was quiet and patient; the trainer didn't follow Smith's methods exactly, but had many similar methods and had the Silent Command System demeanor. The trainer took the dog back to very early levels, running him with puppies and letting him bump and chase. As the dog came along, the trainer didn't recognize flaggy points, and just waited for the dog to quit and bump, or staunch up. No commands, no verbals, just quiet patience.

Over time the trainer got the dog to be staunch most of the time. If there was too much pressure, like a bracemate who hacked, or lots of people around, the dog sometimes reverted. Overall he was much improved but never to where I'd say cured.

IDK what makes some dogs flag while others don't. I would think the shy nervous ones would be prone to flagging, but my dog was bold and cocky. I've had shier, more passive dogs that never flagged at all under stressful conditions. Maybe it's a combination of the dog feeling too much pressure and also not being entirely sure of how he should handle birds, more or less the wrong training technique applied at the wrong time. IDK if there is an inborn tendency to flag and a trigger to bring it out, or what. Sure wish I knew!

My big take away from dealing with my flagger is this - What's a few more months or a year in bringing along a dog? What is to be gained by having ( or attempting to have) a finished dog by some random date in my head? If I'm lucky, I'll have that dog for 13 more years, so being patient in the first year isn't putting me behind in the long run.

Good luck going forward. I hope everything works out for you and your dog.

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