sending dog for training

averageguy
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:10 am

CJ, I understand. I have trained and run my own dogs, served as a gunner, bird planter, equipment transporter, bird catcher ..., and as a Spectator, in numerous Hunt Tests across numerous venues, organizations and breed sponsors. I have seen Dogs, Handlers and Judges all make mistakes, including myself and my dogs.

Your post does not negate the reality that ongoing training of all dogs is needed to maintain their performance at a higher level. (as evidenced by your admitted subsets of some Hunt Test Failures due your dogs' performance, in addition to the other ways to fail you emphasize in your last post here)

Only someone who sets the bar really low has no need to maintain training. Some dogs and subjects need more, some less.

Last summer I attended a Retriever Training day and watched a bunch of talented dogs and handlers, as well as found out where the holes in my dog and I's training were at the time, in those training setups, on that day. The most successful dogs in running those setups were trained and handled by persons who train several times a week all through the off season. Even with their older dogs which have already attained some Hunt Test credentials, in order to maintain those trained skills.

It is for first time handlers such as Kovan (who started this thread), that I take the time to post.

It does them and their dogs a huge disservice to make them feel somehow inferior if they have a continuing need to train their dogs, when the fact is everyone and every dog has that need and benefits from it.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:11 am

cjhills …

Pointing out a few 'exceptions' that could occur in a hunt test, does not in anyway diminish the simple logic expressed by someone who has trained dogs (with professionals and themselves) and then run dogs in hunt tests for years. It is actually, very easy, to find exceptions to explanations provided by anyone on anything, but does not logically make a good argument, because these are exceptions in hunt tests, not norms....

Just saying that those of us that have used multiple pro trainers over a period of many years for many different dogs and then ran those dogs in different levels of hunt tests, probably have an overall broad perspective on what works and what does not when training in these situations.


Admittedly, you may have had different experiences...but that does not diminish the experiences of others!

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:09 pm

[quote="averageguy"]It is for first time handlers such as Kovan (who started this thread), that I take the time to post. /quote]
Because some one has done something for forty years does not mean they have being doing it the best way for someone who has not done it ! ?
Experience given as advise is difficult in text . Especially when there is an unknown recipient in the equation of understanding (The specific dog in question) . :wink:
...
Why do some folk type out reels of their experiences like a resume ................. :cry:

averageguy
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:22 pm

polmaise wrote:
averageguy wrote:It is for first time handlers such as Kovan (who started this thread), that I take the time to post. /quote]
Because some one has done something for forty years does not mean they have being doing it the best way for someone who has not done it ! ?
Experience given as advise is difficult in text . Especially when there is an unknown recipient in the equation of understanding (The specific dog in question) . :wink:
...
Why do some folk type out reels of their experiences like a resume ................. :cry:
So that when Trolls such as yourself attempt to discredit them, the targeted audience has some background information to know whether a person is qualified to comment or not, is why I do it.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:36 pm

Oh Dear !
Have a nice day. :roll:

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Sharon
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Sharon » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:24 pm

Thank you for restraining yourself. PMs sent.
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Sharon » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:26 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Unless you send your dog for two months minimum you're wasting your dough.
X2 I used an excellent trainer once. He sent me weekly updates on how how my dog was doing ; I highly recommend you chose a trainer who keeps you up to date on the dog's progress.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:07 pm

cjhills wrote:I hope the mods will allow a response to the above post. If not I am good with that.
Average Guy.It is note worthy that you failed to mention that I said sometimes I failed and sometimes my dogs did.
There are many ways to fail a Master test that have nothing to do with the training of the dog.
! dog establishes point handler flushes bird dog turns to mark Bird.(perfectly legal) handler whoas dog. DQ.
2. Dog has everything for a qualifying score except and honor. Judge tells handler to call dog in for a setup honor. Handler calls dog in. Dog obeys, accidentally flushes a bird on the way in. Dog has two options. Stop to flush or continue coming in. Dog chooses to obey command. DQ
3. Handler sends dog to retrieve shot bird. On the return with the bird dog points another bird. No way to follow the rules and get out of that situation. A kind judge might let you call the dog in or someting. But it generally means. DQ
Just a few ways. None of these cases and many more will get you a DQ and have nothing to do with training.
It is just simple logic if my dogs need more training to do what I trained them to do, My training needs work. Not arguing just fact.
Thank You........Cj
I definitely agree that a lot of dogs are DQ due to mis-handling. I've witnessed it in every MH and SH pointing dog test that I've gunned in.

In a different venue, when I run my springer in hunt tests, I mostly try to stay out of her way, because I am more likely to mess up and than she is, at least in the field.
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:20 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
I definitely agree that a lot of dogs are DQ due to mis-handling. I've witnessed it in every MH and SH pointing dog test that I've gunned in.

In a different venue, when I run my springer in hunt tests, I mostly try to stay out of her way, because I am more likely to mess up and than she is, at least in the field.
Which has nothing to do with the need for ongoing training for all dogs hunting, competing and testing at higher levels. Nor does it negate all those dogs which fail due to errors/shortcomings in the dog's performance. Often dogs which have previously passed and or done well in their training sessions leading up to the Test.

Beyond surprising to read posts from experienced dog persons suggesting training is not an ongoing process.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:20 pm

Sharon wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Unless you send your dog for two months minimum you're wasting your dough.
X2 I used an excellent trainer once. He sent me weekly updates on how how my dog was doing ;I highly recommend you chose a trainer who keeps you up to date on the dog's progress.
x3 Every client we have for residential training has weekly Videos sent on How we Have achieved the training and Instruction on how the owners should follow what we have done. Back that up with frequent visits ,so that that the owner does this with the dog in training and it guarantees all are satisfied with the progress and end result .Training the dog is the easy part for a Dog Trainer .

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Sharon » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:31 pm

So true. It's often dealing with the clients that is the challenge. :)
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:09 pm

Sharon wrote:So true. It's often dealing with the clients that is the challenge. :)
Much the same on a Gun dog forum :wink:
...
The Dogs are easy . :D :)

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Sharon » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:36 pm

ROFLMAO My lips are sealed. :)
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:16 am

averageguy wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:
I definitely agree that a lot of dogs are DQ due to mis-handling. I've witnessed it in every MH and SH pointing dog test that I've gunned in.

In a different venue, when I run my springer in hunt tests, I mostly try to stay out of her way, because I am more likely to mess up and than she is, at least in the field.
Which has nothing to do with the need for ongoing training for all dogs hunting, competing and testing at higher levels. Nor does it negate all those dogs which fail due to errors/shortcomings in the dog's performance. Often dogs which have previously passed and or done well in their training sessions leading up to the Test.

Beyond surprising to read posts from experienced dog persons suggesting training is not an ongoing process.
Of course ongoing training is necessary to remedy or prevent a backslide. Dogs will always regress to the mean.

At the same time, what I said is also true and was in not in response to any discussion of regression, but rather a response to a point made about handler mistakes during hunt tests. Both are true (can be true) at the same time.

To this point, Kovan, I hope your take away is that after the pup is at the trainer, you are willing and able to either do the maintenance training yourself or send the dog back in for refreshers, AND also see the importance of training yourself/being involved in the process even when the pup is at the trainer, especially since you plan to be the handler of the dog. Like I said before, a lot of times the handler is more of hindrance than a help. For me, the hardest part of dog training is consistency: being consistent with my approach mentally and being consistent with my time. The first is definitely within my control, and the second has not been so much since my children are very young (and young kids need a lot of training themselves!). If you run into that same problem, patience is a great tool. For example, this fall I saw my pointer regress some. She wanted to cheat and break at the shot. I was patient when correcting her because I know it was the lack of time that led to her regression. It didn't take long for her to get back into the game and not cheat.
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:24 am

mnaj_springer wrote:
averageguy wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:
I definitely agree that a lot of dogs are DQ due to mis-handling. I've witnessed it in every MH and SH pointing dog test that I've gunned in.

In a different venue, when I run my springer in hunt tests, I mostly try to stay out of her way, because I am more likely to mess up and than she is, at least in the field.
Which has nothing to do with the need for ongoing training for all dogs hunting, competing and testing at higher levels. Nor does it negate all those dogs which fail due to errors/shortcomings in the dog's performance. Often dogs which have previously passed and or done well in their training sessions leading up to the Test.

Beyond surprising to read posts from experienced dog persons suggesting training is not an ongoing process.
Of course ongoing training is necessary to remedy or prevent a backslide. Dogs will always regress to the mean.

At the same time, what I said is also true and was in not in response to any discussion of regression, but rather a response to a point made about handler mistakes during hunt tests. Both are true (can be true) at the same time.

To this point, Kovan, I hope your take away is that after the pup is at the trainer, you are willing and able to either do the maintenance training yourself or send the dog back in for refreshers, AND also see the importance of training yourself/being involved in the process even when the pup is at the trainer, especially since you plan to be the handler of the dog. Like I said before, a lot of times the handler is more of hindrance than a help. For me, the hardest part of dog training is consistency: being consistent with my approach mentally and being consistent with my time. The first is definitely within my control, and the second has not been so much since my children are very young (and young kids need a lot of training themselves!). If you run into that same problem, patience is a great tool. For example, this fall I saw my pointer regress some. She wanted to cheat and break at the shot. I was patient when correcting her because I know it was the lack of time that led to her regression. It didn't take long for her to get back into the game and not cheat.
Yep as I posted the same a couple times prior in this thread. I know both occur because I have experienced both between myself and my dogs. I have made handling errors, and my dogs have on occasion chosen to not heed training that in some cases they had performed perfectly the day prior to the Hunt Test.

Glad to see some support for the reality that dogs need continuing training to maintain a high standard of performance. It is very helpful to set the right expectation for those entering into those objectives with their dogs; including a level of steadiness that is optimal for practical waterfowling situations consistent with Kovan's stated goals for his dog, as I also touched on in this thread. Add some longer distance blind retrieve handling and the need for ongoing training grows all the more.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:45 am

X 2 above ...averageguy!

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:53 am

Great advices and comments! I will take them into consideration. I now know that I have a long way to go... I did do some blind training last week without even thinking, just to see how my retriever does and he picked it up pretty good (no scent was used). He is getting a lot better not to break, but that is only when retrieving. Do you guys think its a bad idea to have your dog carry his chewing toy around then all suddenly just drops it? or does not matter? looks like a bad habit? if it is I will correct it

I will find a trainer in the next month or so I don't know if its any good to it do now because the weather here is not really cooperating. One week its ok then the next week we get hit with 7 inches of snow then along the week the snow melts annnnnd then the snow comes back. Very frustrating cause I spent more time shoveling snow then training my retriever by the time you know its dark outside.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:56 am

I mean I don't give him his toy and have him carry it around. just that its there and he does that all the time. carry it then just drops it when he wants to.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:04 am

Kovan wrote:I mean I don't give him his toy and have him carry it around. just that its there and he does that all the time. carry it then just drops it when he wants to.
I do not see this as a problem in any way. Your dog will easily differentiate when you are working with it and when it is playing on its own. My dog has a Kong toy laying in our great room always. He was playing by himself, parading around with it, dropping it and grabbing it when it bounced for a short while this morning. It has no effect on his proper hold and delivery when we are working on retrieves or hunting.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:53 pm

I do not see this as a problem in any way. Your dog will easily differentiate when you are working with it and when it is playing on its own. My dog has a Kong toy laying in our great room always. He was playing by himself, parading around with it, dropping it and grabbing it when it bounced for a short while this morning. It has no effect on his proper hold and delivery when we are working on retrieves or hunting.[/quote] Average guy
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yeah I wasn't sure if it will turn into a bad habit as far as training him to hold what he is retrieving to me. So far he hasn't done that while training. thanks

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:04 pm

Key is that you are not giving any commands around your pup playing with his toy and not using it in any play retrieve training. Are you?

I assume in your question and situation, the pup is simply playing with a chew toy on its own. If that is correct I have not had carryover problems with my dogs from that.

Every large breed male pup I have raised has had a need to chew on something as it grows its adult teeth, and has. None of them had any problems with mouthing bumpers or birds because of it, but I also trained a proper Hold command as part of their FF program to ensure they knew what a proper Hold is and did it.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:05 pm

averageguy wrote:Key is that you are not giving any commands around your pup playing with his toy and not using it in any play retrieve training. Are you?

I assume in your question and situation, the pup is simply playing with a chew toy on its own. If that is correct I have not had carryover problems with my dogs from that.

Every large breed male pup I have raised has had a need to chew on something as it grows its adult teeth, and has. None of them had any problems with mouthing bumpers or birds because of it, but I also trained a proper Hold command as part of their FF program to ensure they knew what a proper Hold is and did it.

Nope no command when he is playing/chewing his toy.

why are some people so against force fetch? and some say it is a great training for a gun dog
I tried to pinch my retrievers ear once and I must be doing it wrong but it didn't seem to bother him lol. Unless I do it real hard....then he will start pulling his head away. It was just a test.

I hope that question wont escalade anything :)

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Sharon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:48 pm

Can I suggest you start a new topic..."The value/or not of Force Fetch". It will also be controversial but that's what forums are all about. All we ask if that folks stay polite.
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