The value of the force fetch.

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The value of the force fetch.

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:37 am

Sharon suggested this topic in another thread and it would interest me to see what the split is on here between the folk that do F.F. and those that do not.

Personally I am a "do not" - - - - - mainly because I never find it necessary to do it . A pup that already has a decent retrieve instinct only needs that urge to retrieve encouraged and channelled.

My own dogs of several different breeds - - - Labs, cocker spaniels, springer spaniels, brittanies and GSP's all loved retrieving and worked as picking-up dogs on shoots where many different kinds of game were shot with no retrieve refusal problems. They also won tests in which only bumpers were used as retrieves and they won trials in which game was shot and retrieved.
Why would I want to or need to change that by F.F.ing them ?

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:06 am

I'll start the circus off. I FF every dog I own and every dog I've ever trained.i have for over 40 years and I always will. FF has little to do with retrieving but everything to do with bonding, compliance and delivery. It installs in the dog knowledge that he must perform like it or not and the dog form a bond with the trainer no other method produces. Even if I expected the dog to never retrieve anything, I'd FF it. It's like the old saying "nobody needs FF until they do".
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by cjhills » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:28 am

It is pretty much like GH says force fetch has little to do with fetch. It changes a dog mentally and helps with all training. I have seen some pretty brutal FF methods. Seen a trainer I know break a dogs leg doing FF. I will say they were very effective. A successfully force fetched dog will always retrieve.
I do more of a conditioned retrieve.....Cj

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by Timewise65 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:54 am

gonehuntin' wrote:I'll start the circus off. I FF every dog I own and every dog I've ever trained.i have for over 40 years and I always will. FF has little to do with retrieving but everything to do with bonding, compliance and delivery. It installs in the dog knowledge that he must perform like it or not and the dog form a bond with the trainer no other method produces. Even if I expected the dog to never retrieve anything, I'd FF it. It's like the old saying "nobody needs FF until they do".
X2....gonehunting nailed it above!

I will add that FF also teaches the dog to be soft mouthed delivering to hand on command! I cannot tell you how many bird dogs I have hunted with that either damaged the tablefare before delivery and/or would not deliver to hand! They either held on to it and had to be forced to release or they just dropped the bird in the vicenity of the trainer (Meaning wounded birds will get up and run off)!

All of the trainers I used to FF my dogs over the last 10 years, used a very limiited pressure on the pup to get the FF.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by NC Quailhunter » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:05 am

I am going to answer by saying I have been on both sides. All my dogs prior to the one that I have were strong natural retrievers and did not ever refuse to fetch something for me. Whether it was in water on land or in some thick brush. So I never really had any use for it. This was in my ignorance of what Force Fetch does besides teaching the dog to fetch something.
My current dog a setter had zero interest to bring something back and that even if it was on a flat piece of grass. I turned to Evan Grahams system to teach the dog to retrieve. Even had to get a little follow up advice from GH. I followed the system and not my dog will retrieve anything that I ask him to from anywhere I ask him to.
The other things that the program did for us is strengthen the bond between the dog and I. I have noticed that he is a lot more attentive to what I am asking besides fetch.
I am now a believer and I will be force fetching all my dogs in the future.
Hope this helps.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by crackerd » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:09 am

Trekmoor wrote:Sharon suggested this topic in another thread and it would interest me to see what the split is on here between the folk that do F.F. and those that do not.

Personally I am a "do not" - - - - - mainly because I never find it necessary to do it . A pup that already has a decent retrieve instinct only needs that urge to retrieve encouraged and channelled.
Bill, you really need to transmit (trans-oceanically speaking) some of this intel to that latter-day incarnation of St. Francis of Assisi y'all got over there delivering his withering sermons on the ills and "disappreciation campaign" of 'Merican gundog training. :wink:

MG

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by averageguy » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:02 pm

My pups have all been very strong natural retrievers. I develop their natural retrieve from babies using gentle methods and hunt them successfully on Doves, Waterfowl, Upland birds in their first seasons with never a single refusal and the pups bringing birds dead and alive to my feet or hand. After their first hunting seasons I put all but my current dog through the standard ear pinch FF program because I was heeding the advice similar to what is being posted here.

Looking back I think I could have easily gotten by teaching a Hold command, bypassed the FF ear pinch completely, and gotten the same result.

I did the same early development with my current dog and hunted him through his first season. Then I used a modified version of FF as taught in the Perfect Retrieve DVD with some modifications I made.

I got him on a table, taught Hold, got him moving up and down the table for the object using some markers and treats to enhance my positive re-enforcement in that work, and then I overlayed the ecollar at very low levels of stimulation teaching him that compliance turned it off the moment he got the object in his mouth. Then we went to the ground with it. The whole process was smooth and easy.

Most all who use some form of FF in the US, overlay the ecollar, and then use the ecollar for corrections when the dog drops an object vs reaching down to pinch the dog's ear. Consequently I found no shortcomings in the approach, if the dog drops the bumper, I stimulate with the ecollar the moment it happens and stop the moment he dives for it and gets it back in his mouth. But I have only used this approach on one dog at this point and he was already very willing and eager to retrieve.

I think this modified "Trained Retrieve" fit this dog's temperament far better than had I pinched his ear.

The subject of Bond comes up alot in these discussion. I form a tight bond with my puppies long before they are ready for FF and I would not say I have seen any difference in that after the FF programs were completed. They were already keen to work for me.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:08 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I'll start the circus off. I FF every dog I own and every dog I've ever trained.i have for over 40 years and I always will. FF has little to do with retrieving but everything to do with bonding, compliance and delivery. It installs in the dog knowledge that he must perform like it or not and the dog form a bond with the trainer no other method produces. Even if I expected the dog to never retrieve anything, I'd FF it. It's like the old saying "nobody needs FF until they do".
x3! Hit the nail on the head! I will add that although completing FF is not for every trainer (amateur trainer), but I completed the process with my current two dogs. My springer was a breeze because she was so natural already, and it only reinforced all the things GH mentioned above. My Pointer was more difficult and took twice as long, BUUUTTT the biggest benefit with her is I learned so much about how to train her, ie. what she responds to, how to build on a skill, how to transition from one thing to the next, etc. It was HUGELY beneficial for us and the follow summer (I did FF in February with both dogs) it made breaking her go so smoothly because I had a better understanding of her.

To that point, I will FF every dog I ever own simply to complete the process.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by Timewise65 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:08 pm

crackerd wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:Sharon suggested this topic in another thread and it would interest me to see what the split is on here between the folk that do F.F. and those that do not.

Personally I am a "do not" - - - - - mainly because I never find it necessary to do it . A pup that already has a decent retrieve instinct only needs that urge to retrieve encouraged and channelled.
Bill, you really need to transmit (trans-oceanically speaking) some of this intel to that latter-day incarnation of St. Francis of Assisi y'all got over there delivering his withering sermons on the ills and "disappreciation campaign" of 'Merican gundog training. :wink:

MG

crackered and quailhunter....as many have already stated FF never has been about retrieving, or did you all just not read any of that! Most all retreivers are born with extremely strong retrieving instints....yet most all field trainers for retievers include a FF rountine as the foundation of early training....that alone supports the fact that FF is not about "RETRIEVING"!

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:48 pm

MG - - - your post on here made me look for the post(s) on the British forum you were referring to. It is interesting to see the almost inversed proportions on the subject of F.F. between that forum and this one ! The "St. Francis " guy you mentioned is on his own personal pilgrimage to persuade more people to convert to "Positive Only."

I do not think that British trainers in general fully understand American retrieve methods - or that most American trainers fully understand our retrieve methods. We are both travelling in the same direction but in separate boats ! :lol:

I have seen the word "bond" used several times in this thread. Is it really the case that in order to form a bond with a dog the dog has to be F.F.'d ? F.F. employs the use of "force" and of pressure on a dog.... I am not against that . Ethics are something humans worry about ….not dogs. I have a feeling that dogs think "might maketh right ?"

I do exert "force and pressure" on dogs . I do it every time I make a pup sit when it doesn't really want to ! Maybe this is what causes my dogs to bond with me because I don't use force or pressure to achieve much else in training.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:28 pm

Trekmoor,

I won't speak for others here, but the bond I experience via FF comes in numerous ways, none of which have to do directly with force. One I mentioned is how I learned how my dog learns. Another way is it provides clear expectations in a measurable way for the dogs. If there's one thing I've learned recently it is that dogs and toddlers both require clear and consistent expectations with measurable results (the overlap of dog training and parenting techniques is an ongoing joke in my household). And finally, it is consistent time spent with the dog each day, and in the way I do it, there is plenty of praise.

I'd be interested to know more about the differences between the retrieve across the pond and in the US, but maybe that's for another thread.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by averageguy » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:28 pm

Bill T,

I also commented on the purported "bond" benefits of FF. There is a huge volume of work I do with my puppies that precedes any FF work I have done with them that plays much more heavily into the building our bond. In short I don't buy into the bond benefits of FF to the extent others are expressing here.

Here is a interesting writeup on Bill Hillman's approach to Trained Retrieve.

http://www.billhillmann.net/reviewFetchComm.htm

Here is another point of view.

https://deltawaterfowl.org/gentler-force-fetch/

Culture plays into this subject in a big way.

Bill T and the first article I posted above points out that most of the rest of the world does not use the ear pinch method of FF to train their dogs. In the US most people never try to do it any other way because of our culture.

This thread is an example of what new dog trainers most often hear on the subject.

How likely are they to even try a different approach after reading this? How many have tried a different approach?

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by polmaise » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:13 pm

You just have to watch your fingers ,in case they get burned . :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwrcNqBqweg

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:09 pm

Averageguy,

The only caveat that I’d add to this thread is that FF is not for everyone. A lot of people should not even attempt it. It takes commitment and the ability to read a dog. The same would appear to apply to Hillman’s technique. But for those who can do it, either method, may well see benefits far beyond a reliable retriever.

There’s really no right or wrong, it’s what works for each trainer and each dog.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:13 pm

There is still so much mis-information and misunderstanding of FF that it boggles my mind. The field trial retriever world is where FF was really honed and where it grew and with darn good reason. You have to understand the world of the field trial retriever to understand FF. The dog's get trained and honed on incredibly complex tasks: swimming past scented points, tight quadruple marks with retired guns, ignoring shot flyers and going for dead birds, incredibly long and difficult land and water blinds. Not some but ALL dogs would refuse to do some of these things because of the continual pressure they were under. They. Would refuse to leave the handlers side. The feeling was that the dog HAD TO GO SOMEWHERE even if where he went was wrong. At least you could handle him and you might get a ribbon but he had to go somewhere or that to happen.

You can see how different that is from our hunting dogs. If a hunting dog doesn't go for a bird, we can grab him and make him go or go pick it up ourselves. Not a huge deal. The FF does not have to be exacting as with an AKC Field Trial retrievers. You can get in to a ton of problems by using a hard FF so today most recreational trainers don't. Most trainers that get in trouble with FF do so because they simply do not understand how much force to use. You can use a combination of treats and mild FF to develop a perfectly serviceable hunting dog. I highly recommend this method to anyone that is not going to compete with their dogs. There is no reason for anyone to get in trouble using FF unless they lose their temper and use to much pressure.

I think the pendulum is going to far the other way now and trainers are getting in to trouble by skipping steps and jumping to the collar to soon. The dog HAS to know what HOLD means. It HAS to know what FETCH means. It has to know what DROP means. The program has to be very sequential and not vary. There is a very good reaso to use the jowl's and ear. You have to use them but you do not have to abuse them. I didn't start FFing dogs until the late 70's and that caused me a lot of agony and problems. I will NEVER go back to not FFing a dog. FF is the crescent wrench in your tool box; it can fix nearly anything.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by Ouzel » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:43 am

Traditional FF has a lot going for it because it fixes so many mouth problems, and pros have enough other problems to deal with. Still, you have to pay attention when Voigt, Hillman, Milner and others are moving away from the aversive component of the process and teaching fetch by other means. Most are moving towards reward based training programs which are very powerful. Teach something by free shaping or luring, mark the behavior ( "yes!"), reward, and then give it a name. The name (for the behavior) becomes a command and you correct with the ecollar (or whatever you choose) for infractions. Traditional FF is great but it's not for the novice and lots of dogs have been unnecessarily harmed by folks trying to get it right.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by oldbeek » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:30 am

I am a novice at training to the level I have with this dog. My dog was to busy hunting to fetch wild birds. She is also to busy hunting to back another dog. She is getting better at backing at 5 yrs old. BUT, fetching, she was not going to do. I built a bench and worked her short time periods 3 times a day for 3 weeks. I will not go into detail but pain was involved and one day she snapped. This what you want! You are alpha! Since then she will retrieve anything with a wagging tail and an actual smile. It is major break through with your dog in all aspects of training.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:40 am

I do fully accept that a dog trained the F.F. can become a very good retriever for I once F.F. trained a big, very "tough" border collie male to retrieve using F.F. I think he was about 12 - 14 months old but I cannot be sure for I got him from the Dogs Home....he had been a street stray.

I wanted to do Obedience Arena tests with him and he easily won the "Pre- beginners" test but then I was stuck for the higher tests all involved retrieves with some of the tests involving scent discrimination retrieves. This was 50 years ago and I had read a very brief mention in a book of the F.F. method but I think that the book called it the "Continental or French Retrieve ?" That was all I had to go on , there was no description of this method except to say that force was used.

I had already tried all the "nice" methods I knew at the time but the dog appeared to have no retrieve instinct at all and he just refused to retrieve or even to pick things up. I had booked myself in for the next two stages up the Obedience test ladder and had given myself two months to persuade him to retrieve prior to the tests. He was still refusing to retrieve the day before the tests !


Back then I was much more "macho" than I am now so I decided to use force to get the retrieve. I began at about 1 p.m. on the day before the tests. I used the hallway of my house as a " retrieve alley" and literally forced that poor dog to retrieve up and down it for almost two hours ! :oops: A softer dog would have folded under the pressure for I was not calm and cool and collected while bullying that dog..... I have quite a hot temper that I usually rigidly control !

He began to retrieve so I took him outdoors and continued there. The following day he won both of the tests and did the retrieve of the scent discrimination test too. When folk gathered round to congratulate me on those wins I blew long and hard on my own trumpet and kept on blowing until I felt a sort of hot , wet sensation on my leg ….. my dog had cocked his leg on me ! :lol: So much for my version of F.F. creating a bond between us ! :lol:

The dog went on to the very top of the obedience arena tests and then I got bored with "pure obedience" and trained him as a gundog and he was a pretty good one. I do know that F.F. works I just prefer the other methods. I also know that your more enlightened F.F. methods are a lot nicer on dogs than the one I used all those years ago ! :roll: :oops:


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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by averageguy » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:24 am

gonehuntin' wrote:There is still so much mis-information and misunderstanding of FF that it boggles my mind. The field trial retriever world is where FF was really honed and where it grew and with darn good reason. You have to understand the world of the field trial retriever to understand FF. The dog's get trained and honed on incredibly complex tasks: swimming past scented points, tight quadruple marks with retired guns, ignoring shot flyers and going for dead birds, incredibly long and difficult land and water blinds. Not some but ALL dogs would refuse to do some of these things because of the continual pressure they were under. They. Would refuse to leave the handlers side. The feeling was that the dog HAD TO GO SOMEWHERE even if where he went was wrong. At least you could handle him and you might get a ribbon but he had to go somewhere or that to happen.

You can see how different that is from our hunting dogs. If a hunting dog doesn't go for a bird, we can grab him and make him go or go pick it up ourselves. Not a huge deal. The FF does not have to be exacting as with an AKC Field Trial retrievers. You can get in to a ton of problems by using a hard FF so today most recreational trainers don't. Most trainers that get in trouble with FF do so because they simply do not understand how much force to use. You can use a combination of treats and mild FF to develop a perfectly serviceable hunting dog. I highly recommend this method to anyone that is not going to compete with their dogs. There is no reason for anyone to get in trouble using FF unless they lose their temper and use to much pressure.

I think the pendulum is going to far the other way now and trainers are getting in to trouble by skipping steps and jumping to the collar to soon. The dog HAS to know what HOLD means. It HAS to know what FETCH means. It has to know what DROP means. The program has to be very sequential and not vary. There is a very good reaso to use the jowl's and ear. You have to use them but you do not have to abuse them. I didn't start FFing dogs until the late 70's and that caused me a lot of agony and problems. I will NEVER go back to not FFing a dog. FF is the crescent wrench in your tool box; it can fix nearly anything.
Much of this rings true for my experience.

When I started doing FF I thought it was all about the Force. (The DVDs available now were not yet invented.) The reason for that was I was watching Pro Trainers at D.L. Walters Kennel train and it was all about Force in that era, and it was brutal for the most part.

Now I think what I would term a "Trained Retrieve" is all about the teaching of individual skills and chaining them together. I used as much positive re-enforcement as possible and then proofed it with a form of force i.e. the ecollar with my current dog. The dog has excellent genetics, was developed properly from day one, and the overall approach yielded excellent results.

I have never trained a dog which did not have excellent drive for retrieving bred into it and that no doubt shades my views on the subject. With those types of dogs I am confident I can produce excellent and consistent results using the approach I have moved towards over time. I have the advantage of working with my puppies one at a time from the day they arrive. Which is far different than a pro taking on dogs from the general public many of whom are spoiled, were not developed properly as a baby, may not have an excellent level of natural retrieve bred into them, and the Pro is under a time table for results which I am not under with my dogs.

I think many dogs have suffered as Amateurs attempt to use traditional FF methods to train them. It seems when this subject of training comes up the title "Force Fetch" immediately works against the process as the focus for too many is on the Force vs teaching the skills first. The notion that "Force is extremely useful in training the dog" causes too many to not apply the more basic tenet in dog training - Read the dog and adapt your methods to the Dog to produce the desired result.

The critical stage in FF for me is reading whether the dog is confused or refusing/being stubborn. I think a bunch of Amateurs lack the experience to be good at that and the oft repeated notion that "Force is Good or even Great" causes them to get into trouble in a hurry.

Unless a dog lacks a strong natural retrieving instinct, the vast majority of Amateur trainers are better off using a highly similar but importantly different approach of teaching individual skills, chaining them together, then proofing a "Trained Retrieve" that is more likely to produce the desired results is my belief.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:46 pm

averageguy wrote: The critical stage in FF for me is reading whether the dog is confused or refusing/being stubborn. I think a bunch of Amateurs lack the experience to be good at that and the oft repeated notion that "Force is Good or even Great" causes them to get into trouble in a hurry.

Unless a dog lacks a strong natural retrieving instinct, the vast majority of Amateur trainers are better off using a highly similar but importantly different approach of teaching individual skills, chaining them together, then proofing a "Trained Retrieve" that is more likely to produce the desired results is my belief.
I think that's a pretty important thing to remember. We just finished discussing the "jowl pinch" and there's no doubt that nearly any dog in America can be ff'd using the jowl and never touching the ear. Applying the correct amount of force is a true are and there are NOT 1:500 amateur trainers can do it correctly. Half apply too little, half too much. That's why Evan Graham's Smart Fetch instantly became so popular and people like Hillman so much. The less force you use, the less you'll get in trouble. You can never forget that many of the original FF methods were developed for the A70 collar. It's a far better world out there today.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by polmaise » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:59 pm

The words Force and Fetch ,were probably the worst marketing language tools used in the process,for all ...to this day including your modern marketing entrepreneurs.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gundogguy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:47 am

"polmaise"]The words Force and Fetch ,were probably the worst marketing language tools used in the process,for all ...[/quote]

Hence the term "Trained Retrieve" I may be wrong But I think Jim Dobbs back when he was involved with the Dogtra e collars coined that term.
Though as far marketing goes "Breaking to wing and shot" always got a Huge ouch in my book!
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by polmaise » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:40 pm

gundogguy wrote:"polmaise"]The words Force and Fetch ,were probably the worst marketing language tools used in the process,for all ...
Hence the term "Trained Retrieve" I may be wrong But I think Jim Dobbs back when he was involved with the Dogtra e collars coined that term.
Though as far marketing goes "Breaking to wing and shot" always got a Huge ouch in my book!
Hal[/quote]
I hear You Hal . Breaking to anything ..and "Wind" ..To shot has more for some ..But that is also another story . Hope You are well and hunting,or at the very least guiding those that can . :wink:

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by ddoyle » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:41 pm

Purely an amateur and I have only forced fetched one dog... She was soft and wouldn't retrieve anything and she clearly knew fetch and give etc... It just came to birds she was very much not going to put it in her mouth. She would run down birds if it was a cripple she would pin it with her paw. As I stated I am an amateur and hunt with other guys who are NOT training their dogs for trials. I say this because when a bird goes down it is often dependent on the first dog to find it who gets retrieves. So my dog would always be a little slower and never had to retrieve. I used ear pinch to get her to open her mouth and that only had to be done a few sessions after she realized I was serious not gonna give up and she needed to comply. I finished and she retrieved birds.

It seems to me that much of this argument is about people who do FF poorly or are over the top in getting the dog to comply. In that we can all agree they are wrong but that is like anything else where you lump everyone together. I do CrossFit are there morons who over do CrossFit and get hurt heck yes and are there people who modify workouts and get great results heck yes. The second group is much more prevalent and the first group gets more attention.

As for treats I have had dogs who refuse treats when in a pressure situation so I don't feel you can count on treats as much as you can count on the dog understanding that you are in charge and in the end it is a request.

Alright I am prepared for everyone to come at me now!
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by CDN_Cocker » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:01 pm

Trekmoor wrote: The "St. Francis " guy you mentioned is on his own personal pilgrimage to persuade more people to convert to "Positive Only."
I generally agree with most of what he posts although obviously I don't agree with PP, our thought processes aren't that different. However I did believe he was talking out his rear on that subject. I think FF is a great foundation on which to build a dog and although yes you do use some force, the more skilled the trainer is, the less force is actually required (this could be said of any training concept). I think people should train how they feel comfortable training and if they don't like FF that's ok. But after my experience with it, it will be a part of every future dog's training. It was a good experience for me and my dog. There were sessions that werent great but the end result was positive for both of us. I actually did have previous experience with a pug I had that I trained using the old school Koehler method which outlines force fetching for obedience. Modern force fetch programs are much more pleasant than that.
Cass
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gundogguy » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:28 am

polmaise wrote:
gundogguy wrote:"polmaise"]The words Force and Fetch ,were probably the worst marketing language tools used in the process,for all ...
Hence the term "Trained Retrieve" I may be wrong But I think Jim Dobbs back when he was involved with the Dogtra e collars coined that term.
Though as far marketing goes "Breaking to wing and shot" always got a Huge ouch in my book!
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I hear You Hal . Breaking to anything ..and "Wind" ..To shot has more for some ..But that is also another story . Hope You are well and hunting,or at the very least guiding those that can . :wink:[/quote]

+1 Thanks for the shout out Robt. Ms Zeta and I are enjoying retirement Thank-you! Nice thread, Bill happy you started it!
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by crackerd » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:23 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
Trekmoor wrote: The "St. Francis " guy you mentioned is on his own personal pilgrimage to persuade more people to convert to "Positive Only."
I generally agree with most of what he posts although obviously I don't agree with PP, our thought processes aren't that different. However I did believe he was talking out his rear on that subject. I think FF is a great foundation on which to build a dog and although yes you do use some force, the more skilled the trainer is, the less force is actually required (this could be said of any training concept). I think people should train how they feel comfortable training and if they don't like FF that's ok. But after my experience with it, it will be a part of every future dog's training. It was a good experience for me and my dog. There were sessions that werent great but the end result was positive for both of us. I actually did have previous experience with a pug I had that I trained using the old school Koehler method which outlines force fetching for obedience. Modern force fetch programs are much more pleasant than that.
Cass, outstanding news that you've force-fetched a pug! - that experience is sure to put you on easy street with your new Lagotto Romagnolo pup. Can you say "Piece of panettone?" :wink: Though the truffle retrieving may call for a softer mouth, may need Hillman or ... Victoria Stilwell :wink: for imparting it.

About 1 in 1,000 retriever trainers - no, check that: 1 in 1,000 FT retriever trainers use the Koehler method today for FF. And what a nightmare - as a rule - their dogs go on to become when competing - and often in training. I won't say any more 'cause I've seen too much already.

MG

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:32 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote: I think FF is a great foundation on which to build a dog and although yes you do use some force, the more skilled the trainer is, the less force is actually required (this could be said of any training concept).
t

I don't believe that statement is true. In fact, I'd say it's reversed. The LESS skill a trainer has the LESS force he uses. It takes a very skilled trainer to use a lot of force on a dog. Nor do I think less force is at all a bad thing for the new or unskilled trainer.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by CDN_Cocker » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:17 pm

Well I could be wrong, I often am. But i know with every new dog that comes into my life I use a lot less force in general training than the dog prior. I would hope that's due to understanding dogs better and not worse...
Cass
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:34 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Well I could be wrong, I often am. But i know with every new dog that comes into my life I use a lot less force in general training than the dog prior. I would hope that's due to understanding dogs better and not worse...
When you compete with a dog it's different, or if you're getting paid to train. If competing, that dog better go when told or ya ain't gettin' no ribbon. A client expects to get a dog back from a pro trainer that he doesn't have to beat on to make obey. Both require dog's trained under pressure. If it's your dog, it's entirely different.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by ddoyle » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:38 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:Well I could be wrong, I often am. But i know with every new dog that comes into my life I use a lot less force in general training than the dog prior. I would hope that's due to understanding dogs better and not worse...
When you compete with a dog it's different, or if you're getting paid to train. If competing, that dog better go when told or ya ain't gettin' no ribbon. A client expects to get a dog back from a pro trainer that he doesn't have to beat on to make obey. Both require dog's trained under pressure. If it's your dog, it's entirely different.



Or if you want a brag dog. I have hunted with folks who brag on their dag and talk about guiding and while a good hunting dog nothing I would charge a client to hunt behind. JMO
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by CDN_Cocker » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm

I don't know... I've competed with with my dog. Fun and all but I don't have the time nor the money to focus on that at this stage in my life - my kids' sports fill up that void and financial drain. He goes when he is told to go.. . every time. Maybe we're miscommunicating. Or maybe we just disagree.
Cass
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by JONOV » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:55 pm

The value of FF is entirely dependent on the desired outcome for the dog. If the goal is to recover a bird, definitely not really needed.

A finished retrieve from a lab or the like? Probably not needed.

If the goal is a competition like a retriever FT, or test with a higher level of standards like NAVHDA or JGHV, then its a different story.

And if you're taking someone's money to train their dog, then there's something of an obligation to produce results in an efficient manner. But that's another discussion.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by averageguy » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:40 am


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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:10 pm

Any clips of Day 1 and 2 ?

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by averageguy » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:38 pm

polmaise wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:10 pm
Any clips of Day 1 and 2 ?
https://www.facebook.com/jim.gourley/vi ... 131621434/

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:28 pm

Day 1 ,must have been hoot.
Plenty "Force Hold" for sure.
I had it explained and demonstrated by a good friend "Chris Atkinson" , State Side.
Nothing like "Force Fetch" He said.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by averageguy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:49 am

From what I have seen so far he is using an approach highly similar to what I used with my current dog and described in one of my posts above.

I see some highly similar areas to traditional FF programs e.g. Using the table, Teaching Hold first, getting the dog moving up and down the table eagerly holding the bumper, and some areas of difference e.g. no toe hitch or ear pinch. The Gentleman is a Pro Trainer in NC Kansas. The approach also looks similar to the Perfect Retrieve DVD methods I modified some in training my most recent dog.

Part of a growing use of Trained Retrieve done with a lot of similarities and some differences to existing FF programs.

Thought it fit with the discussion when I ran across it yesterday so I posted the link.

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by DonF » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:59 am

I used to force fetch broke dog's for trials. But I only wanted a dog to fetch on command. Haven't forced a dog in years now and never had a problem getting most to retrieve well. A hard mouth dog I would force. Seem's I always ended up with a soft moth dog that way but Hard mouth seem's to me is a trained trait, to much tug a war with the retrieved object! I did one Britt years ago that was just 11 mos and the owner sent it on a cripple pheasant. Bird beat the tar out of the pup and it quit retrieving, force got it back. I've never enjoyed force training and now haven't done it in years but There is a place for it with me. Just that I feel there are better way's to get to a good retrieveing hunting dog without the force.

One more thing to remember, what a dog won't do next to you, he won't do 5 yds away. Only exception I can think of to that is getting a dog to point with a remote trap.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:27 am

I want the dog to grab the dummy first on the "fetch" command. With a ear pinch. Where he will jump three ft. to get it on the "fetch" command. Nothing else stops the ear pinch. Then no more force. Train "hold" And then carry on the bench on the ground an in the field. I alredy trained have a very good "here" if he starts getting slow or mouths the bird "here" gets his mind back on me. Works every time......Cj

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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:27 pm

I don't think that's so amazing, it's just the way a dog responds when correctly started on the jowl fetch, a method I'm a HUGE proponent of. It's a great method for beginners afraid of getting in trouble because the dog can be totally forced using the jowl only, never going to the ear or stick. Been doing that about 40 some years now. I don't bother with building a bench. I just lay an 8' x 1' by 3/4" piece of plywood between two chairs. Saves my poor old back. If you remember, I posted a vid of a pup I finished a while back done with the jowl. OOPS! Different forum. Here it is. Should add that I believe, like AG, that correctly used, treats simplify and speed up FF for a pup

https://youtu.be/vmv5I-yA5Xk
Last edited by gonehuntin' on Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by ddoyle » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:28 pm

Gone video unavailable
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Re: The value of the force fetch.

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:14 pm

ddoyle wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:28 pm
Gone video unavailable
Should be fixed now.
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