Tone and vibrate commands

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mrelite
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Tone and vibrate commands

Post by mrelite » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:20 am

So I have been working on a heel command using the tone on the collar and a here command using the vibrate. I am finally starting to see some constant results so I took a couple videos to show the progress, I forgot to show me hitting the tone button for the heel command but I hit it one time right when I started the video and the dog was completely out of sight. When I use the vibrate command I want him to look up or look for me and come back into the general area.
I think in time these two silent commands using the collar are going to be priceless, the idea of silent commands were from this forum and I just wanted to thank people for taking time and sharing their expertise on the forum so that those of us that are new at training have somewhere to get great ideas.

I welcome any comments or thoughts, positive or negative.

Hope the links work

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Kht2qWBEwXxVDBJu5
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZgvaTfGgUCBGi7xU9

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CDN_Cocker
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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:49 am

I conditioned mine to here with vibrate but only use it if he blows me off. The vibrate function puts more pressure on a dog then stim. People think they're being kinder by using vibrate instead but it's the opposite. However it's justified if the dog isn't responding to recall. There's no wiggle room when it comes to whether or not they want to comply. It needs to be 100%. He looks good. Beautiful dog keep up the good work.
Cass
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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by averageguy » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:23 am

Beautiful dog and nice job pursuing your training goals.

Couple of thoughts.

I use the tone for silent recall. If I just want the dog to tighten up or change direction, I continue walking in the direction I want to hunt and let the dog swing to the front and keep going. If instead I want the dog to come all the way into the Heel position I give my hand signal for Heel with my left hand indicating I want the dog to come all the way to me and sit at heel. So I am using the tone for both in effect depending on what I do when the dog is able to see me well. Me walking on means hunt on in the direction I am heading, Me standing still and giving the hand signal to Heel means come all the way into Heel.

On your Heel I could not see what the dog did exactly when it arrived, but I think you want to be very tight in your requirement for the dog to come all the way into Heel and remain there until you release it. I would withhold your praise until the dog has come all the way into Heel and remains there through your praise until you issue your release command to indicate it is ok to move on or out. Do not let the dog get in the habit of releasing on your praise is my thought on that.

Many times when I recall my dog and issue the Heel command, I will then walk the dog at heel for some distance, often the last 100 yards back towards the truck at the end of a run for both safety and training purposes. It re-enforces that the dog is to Heel until and unless I release it to do something different.

Keep up the good work. It is such a pleasure to hunt and live with a well trained dog.

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by mrelite » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:26 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:49 am
I conditioned mine to here with vibrate but only use it if he blows me off. The vibrate function puts more pressure on a dog then stim. People think they're being kinder by using vibrate instead but it's the opposite. However it's justified if the dog isn't responding to recall. There's no wiggle room when it comes to whether or not they want to comply. It needs to be 100%. He looks good. Beautiful dog keep up the good work.
Thanks!

So you are using vibrate as an enforcer of a verbal or whistle recall command, what happens if vibrate doesn't bring him in?
I have never heard that the vibrate function puts more pressure on a dog than stimulation, I'll have look for some info on that. At this point I don't think Trapper thinks of it as a negative or pressure at all, stimulation seems to be much more of a negative for him.


What do you do for recall if you don't want to make noise or the dog is further out or out of sight and they can't hear you because it is windy? The whole premise of me using the vibrate and tone is to give him silent commands to heel, come back around or stop what he is doing and find me when he is out of sight or when birds are close by and I don't want them to get buggered up.

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by mrelite » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:24 pm

averageguy wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:23 am
Beautiful dog and nice job pursuing your training goals.

Couple of thoughts.

I use the tone for silent recall. If I just want the dog to tighten up or change direction, I continue walking in the direction I want to hunt and let the dog swing to the front and keep going. If instead I want the dog to come all the way into the Heel position I give my hand signal for Heel with my left hand indicating I want the dog to come all the way to me and sit at heel. So I am using the tone for both in effect depending on what I do when the dog is able to see me well. Me walking on means hunt on in the direction I am heading, Me standing still and giving the hand signal to Heel means come all the way into Heel.

On your Heel I could not see what the dog did exactly when it arrived, but I think you want to be very tight in your requirement for the dog to come all the way into Heel and remain there until you release it. I would withhold your praise until the dog has come all the way into Heel and remains there through your praise until you issue your release command to indicate it is ok to move on or out. Do not let the dog get in the habit of releasing on your praise is my thought on that.

Many times when I recall my dog and issue the Heel command, I will then walk the dog at heel for some distance, often the last 100 yards back towards the truck at the end of a run for both safety and training purposes. It re-enforces that the dog is to Heel until and unless I release it to do something different.

Keep up the good work. It is such a pleasure to hunt and live with a well trained dog.

I can see using the tone for both! I had already been using the vibrate to crudely maneuver him for awhile but it has evolved to have more in-depth meanings like the ones you mentioned. I have been working the directional hand signals when he looks at me, in the video that I waved to him so that he could see me, normally I would have put my arm in a direction and he would have went that way instead of coming to me like he did or I could have just started walking and he would have just worked in that direction but I can't take video and walk at the same time. In my mind the basis for vibrate is for him to know that he doesn't have to come in all the way, we just need to communicate. It's been a long road for us, when we started he didn't care whether I was there or not but now I think we have finally started to come together and it's a damm good feeling
I guess my thoughts on using the tone for one thing only (heel) was that when the dog heard the tone he knows he needs to come all the way in and heel if he is 50' away or 500yds, I also have been doing a hand signal as he is coming in to heel but you are right he is a little loose on the heel, it isn't always right next to me sometimes it is 5 feet away. I like your suggestions with the heeling when he comes in and not as much praise before he has done it right all the way.

Gotta go! Thanks

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:29 pm

What is the transition trainings to the dog behaving to the learned trainings of tone and vibrate when they are no longer on the dog ? Or is this a forevermore.

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by BigTub » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:52 pm

I picked up a used collar/transmitter for cheap that has the Tone, Vibrate, Momentary Stimulate functions. My 15 yr old Britt is deaf and was hoping to use it. He never has needed stimulus except on chasing game. The younger Britt is nine and I put it on him to discourage eating poop. Trying it out, I had to go up to 8 of 20 settings before he even felt the tickle. I often use the tone with him and then he get zapped if he ignores it, which he does about 1/3 times depending on intensity of the situation (like furry creatures). I tried the vibrate for the first time and he almost came out of his skin! I was surprised at the flinch and jump. I will have to see how it goes out in the field.

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mrelite
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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by mrelite » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:07 pm

polmaise wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:29 pm
What is the transition trainings to the dog behaving to the learned trainings of tone and vibrate when they are no longer on the dog ? Or is this a forevermore.

I am not totally sure what you mean by "forevermore" but the dog has a good base of verbal and whistle commands so I can hunt him no problem without the collar. I started overlaying the tone and vibrate on known commands in the yard and then out in the mesa at close range and I am now getting him to respond from locations that are further away. One beep and he is coming all the way in without me whistling or yelling his name, one vibrate and he looks for me then reacts to whatever I am doing or asking him to do, he seems to like the vibrate que.

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:43 pm

mrelite wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:26 pm

Thanks!

So you are using vibrate as an enforcer of a verbal or whistle recall command, what happens if vibrate doesn't bring him in?
Vibrate is the last resort on the collar if he doesn't respond to whistle/voice/stim before that. If that doesn't work then you need to move to the next tool you have available. That would be your running shoes. I make sure I'm very clear when I catch up to him. An e-collar is an extremely useful tool but its not the solution to everything.
Cass
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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by polmaise » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:05 pm

One would wonder why all the prelims to the end result were necessary. Unless one is not capable of movement.

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by gundogguy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:19 am

polmaise wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:05 pm
One would wonder why all the prelims to the end result were necessary. Unless one is not capable of movement.
8) 8) 8)
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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by CDN_Cocker » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:34 pm

The end result is never necessary if the dog is compliant. Some people don't use any of those other tools so your running shoes are the only solution you can apply. I use them early in training so the dog never gets to the point later on where blowing me off is a consideration. Online though lots of keyboard warriors have never had a dog blow them off though I guess.
Cass
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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by polmaise » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:03 pm

Some should adjust their Tone ,instead of getting all vibrated on single issues.
Attempts at being clever often makes a fool look experienced with perceived knowledge to an older dog that has experiences unknown to the clever Richard with new toys.
.....................
"I conditioned mine to here with vibrate but only use it if he blows me off"
"Vibrate is the last resort on the collar if he doesn't respond to whistle/voice/stim before that."
"The vibrate function puts more pressure on a dog then stim"
"Some people don't use any of those other tools so your running shoes are the only solution you can apply. I use them early in training so the dog never gets to the point later on where blowing me off is a consideration"
......................
Using Tone or vibration electronically communication sounds good from the marketing scenario used "The whole premise of me using the vibrate and tone is to give him silent commands to heel, come back around or stop what he is doing and find me when he is out of sight or when birds are close by and I don't want them to get buggered up."
On an Open Prairie or Scottish Grouse Moor would be Body picture to heel,same as stop (if the dog looks at you) ,Stop what you are doing is something different ?..If the dog is hunting ,then I don't want to stop that. If it is out of sight as in heavy cover ,then the dog is being allowed to work too far in that cover for the handler ,or the "Foot handler" is not keeping up with the hunt (including your Catskills) .If Birds are close by and the dog is out of sight or Way out ,then that is "missed game" that should have been located before the dog was allowed to cover ground where Game was close by :roll: :wink:
.............

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by mrelite » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:04 pm

polmaise wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:03 pm
Using Tone or vibration electronically communication sounds good from the marketing scenario used "The whole premise of me using the vibrate and tone is to give him silent commands to heel, come back around or stop what he is doing and find me when he is out of sight or when birds are close by and I don't want them to get buggered up."
On an Open Prairie or Scottish Grouse Moor would be Body picture to heel,same as stop (if the dog looks at you) ,Stop what you are doing is something different ?..If the dog is hunting ,then I don't want to stop that. If it is out of sight as in heavy cover ,then the dog is being allowed to work too far in that cover for the handler ,or the "Foot handler" is not keeping up with the hunt (including your Catskills) .If Birds are close by and the dog is out of sight or Way out ,then that is "missed game" that should have been located before the dog was allowed to cover ground where Game was close by :roll: :wink:
.............
I hear you but there is always much more to the story than is typed, LOL I just didn't know that everyone didn't know what I was talking about.

If you have never been to NM then there are some field conditions that you may not understand until you've experienced it. I do agree that my dog will run big at times but it is to find the birds. Out here it sometimes takes awhile before we even find the birds and when the dog does finds them he will hold point until I get there, yes sometimes it is a long ways! Sometimes I will get there and the birds flush without us getting a chance to shoot or to bust the covey up and then they are another 1/2mile away, between that 1/2 mile are arroyos that twist and turn with all different types of cover. The dog and I do not cover the same path, it's big country out here with a lot of places for the birds to hide so I may run across a covey he did not find.
Trust me if I whistled or yelled for the dog the covey would be gone!! So now I can back off the covey hit the vibrate or tone and just sit tight until the dog starts working back towards me. LOL I definitely could use a horse to keep up sometimes!!

I also do much of what you are saying, in open country I can stop walking and the dog will work back towards me, I can bring him in to heel by body language, I can change directions and he moves in the direction I start walking. sometimes when he is in view I hit the vibrate and when he looks up I'll point in the direction I think birds may be and he will work that way, if I whistled these Blues or Gambles will run like the wind and disappear like a magician. I find that the dog is sometimes busy looking for birds....... and I need to get his attention because sometimes I also know where birds are :lol: .

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by mrelite » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:24 pm

One time I was super lucky to snap a picture of Trapper looking for birds..............
20180203_153705 2.jpg
20180203_153705 2.jpg (103.17 KiB) Viewed 1144 times

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:26 am

If the dog was that far away that I couldn't see it ,my concern about using any communication to call it back would be that I wouldn't know if I was calling it off a Point .
The Tone in this guys hunt is his voice and the birds are Not scared off by him :wink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmHotY6o-wM

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by mrelite » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:09 am

The terrain differences and type of birds is like comparing apples and oranges. I have a GPS collar on the dog and when he goes on point my handheld will tell me, I can also see the direction he is running and how far he is at all times so there isn't any issue about calling him off point. As soon as the dog drops into an arroyo or goes over hill or into a depression the sound travel is diminished to where the vibrate or tone will reach out and remind the dog that he needs to work back towards me.

I do agree that close working dogs can have a great day finding Blues and Gambles when staying by the handler, it's just two different concepts in finding the birds which creates different issues and a great reason to have two different dogs.

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by averageguy » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:37 am

mrelite,

I am with you on the silent dog handling.

This short video demos our silent recall all the way into the heel position. Had I kept walking the dog have kept hunting, but I stood still and he came all the way into heel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbpflD2i6l0

You are well on your way to molding your dog to handle in the way that is best for your hunting conditions. Good on you for putting in the time and effort to do so.

Robert,

The Garmin tool I use tells me when the dog is moving and when it is on point so I can either walk to the dog point out of sight or give the dog a silent que to change directions if I want to head somewhere different than the dog is headed. It avoids calling an unseen dog off of a point and instead notifies and guides the handler to the dog, which is why the tool is so popular with bird hunters in the states.

I see the date in that video you posted is mid Feb which is 2.5 months past the close of hunting season on what I suspect is likely a very lightly hunted private estate. Kind of the polar opposite of public lands desert quail (which are notorious for running while still in a covey), or even the extremely wary public lands sharptail and prairie chickens grouse species I hunt in the states.

Once past the small family groups of the early season, the grouse I hunt are extremely prone to flushing wild at 2-300 yard distances once they gather in larger flocks, and the more silent the handler is and the farther off the birds the dog is able to point them, the better. Many dog trainers work the grouse on our public lands through the mid and late summer and give them exposure to men and dogs which makes them all the more wary by the time the seasons open. The videos of grouse chuckling out from points are often shot months before the hunting seasons are open and are small family groups of grouse the young ones which have never been hunted. By October the grouse are coming together into larger flocks and they start behaving like a different species. A human voice or a whistle will not be tolerated well is my experience and silent running in a advantage.

If others want to blow their whistles or holler voice commands to their dogs, I have no reason to care as long as they are not hunting with me and my dog.

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:48 pm

Thanks Guys ,mrelite and averageguy.
Never used a Garmin or any other locator . Never had to,so I can't comment on their use or effectiveness.
Do they tell the handler the difference between the dog on point or just standing still looking for the handler ,or having a toilet break ?
I can appreciate differences in ground cover between continents , perhaps I just prefer a dog to work and cover the ground without missing any game.
....
Horses for courses as someone said .
Regards
Robert

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:45 pm

They Will tel lyou which dog is standing, what direction and how far away it is. But it does not tell what the dog is doing. You can set the time so you don't get a notice every time the dog stops to sniff the roses or poop.
It seems like some people handle the dog a lot more than I do. I will say I like my dogs to point Huns in a covey a good distance off and any talking is likely to launch the birds. Then you have to walk amile down another coulee to find them.....Cj

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Re: Tone and vibrate commands

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:15 pm

cjhills wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:45 pm
They Will tel lyou which dog is standing, what direction and how far away it is. But it does not tell what the dog is doing. You can set the time so you don't get a notice every time the dog stops to sniff the roses or poop.
It seems like some people handle the dog a lot more than I do. I will say I like my dogs to point Huns in a covey a good distance off and any talking is likely to launch the birds. Then you have to walk amile down another coulee to find them.....Cj
Sounds good for a seasoned/trusted/trained dog.For one "In training ",Not so much ? I wouldn't know if was busting game,catching it,or taking a break,or A first point.

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