Selling the concept

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polmaise
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Selling the concept

Post by polmaise » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:54 pm

Wing on a string , whoa barrels,Placeboards ,even wonder leads and all manner of stuff made and promoted to sell the concept of training a dog .
I was just messing about this afternoon with this pup , ..wing on a string ? It is just curious ! It Is not teaching steady or whoa ..Sight pointing has nothing in correlation to scent pointing ,but it can look good on film .
I was just messing with the Hens . They are trained . :wink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cet02LUQGxo

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:45 pm

I find it amusing to watch an 8 weeks to 10 weeks old pup "pointing" a wing on a string …. and to note whether the pup is inclined to move in quickly for a "catch" or if the pup is the more cautious type. Knowing that sometimes helps once the pup is actually pointing on game, but that is about the limit of my interest in sight pointing.

I never use the many aides available for the training of pointer pups with the very occasional exception of a 15 feet long checkcord.
I have two remote control pigeon releasers sitting in a friends shed going rusty. I very seldom used them , I greatly prefer to use wild game right from the very start.

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by polmaise » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:01 pm

I have one very oiled pigeon launcher in my shed that I use often for Spaniels and retrievers.

marysburg
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Re: Selling the concept

Post by marysburg » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:55 pm

Polmaise, I have used launchers to good effect with pointers, but now I have a young Springer bitch and I wonder how I could use launchers to set up training sessions for her. We have an unlimited number of homing pigeons to use, but they are difficult to dizzy and plant for the flushing dog. Any sage advice from you would be very welcome.

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by polmaise » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:40 am

marysburg wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:55 pm
Polmaise, I have used launchers to good effect with pointers, but now I have a young Springer bitch and I wonder how I could use launchers to set up training sessions for her. We have an unlimited number of homing pigeons to use, but they are difficult to dizzy and plant for the flushing dog. Any sage advice from you would be very welcome.
'Gundogguy' on here is a master at dizzying pigeons ,I have seen a couple of his videos when the dog 'Zeta' was in training .
Some folk dizzy them too much over here,and it encourages the dog to catch ,which we do not want over here. It is an art that requires a good teacher to get them to either stay long enough in a dizzied state for the hunt up ,or not stay dizzied enough that you can toss them for the dog and they remain dizzied for a few seconds and fly off with enough pace. :wink:

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by Sharon » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Exactly and I think the only way to get good at it is practice, practice,practice Marysburg.
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Re: Selling the concept

Post by polmaise » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:48 pm

Sharon wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:28 pm
Exactly and I think the only way to get good at it is practice, practice,practice Marysburg.
+1 . without the dog . :wink:

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by gundogguy » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:38 am

polmaise wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:40 am
marysburg wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:55 pm
Polmaise, I have used launchers to good effect with pointers, but now I have a young Springer bitch and I wonder how I could use launchers to set up training sessions for her. We have an unlimited number of homing pigeons to use, but they are difficult to dizzy and plant for the flushing dog. Any sage advice from you would be very welcome.
'Gundogguy' on here is a master at dizzying pigeons ,I have seen a couple of his videos when the dog 'Zeta' was in training .
Some folk dizzy them too much over here,and it encourages the dog to catch ,which we do not want over here. It is an art that requires a good teacher to get them to either stay long enough in a dizzied state for the hunt up ,or not stay dizzied enough that you can toss them for the dog and they remain dizzied for a few seconds and fly off with enough pace. :wink:
Robt, thanks for the endorsement. However there are Spanieliers across the length and breadth of the USA that are masters at planting a pigeon properly. Because of that i know of no spanieliers that use any sort of trap or confinement system when planting a live bird for a spaniel in the training. That also applies to pheasants as well.
I might add that the number of pigeons used across the country on any given week would easily be over a thousand pigeons. I myself have planted some 50,000 in my 35 years of dog training. Like any behavior in training planting pigeons can be taught and through repetition "perfected"
For the Flushing dog!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBrThQ5xOZQ

For the Pointing dog!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyxLICOwJmg

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by DonF » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:01 am

marysburg wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:55 pm
Polmaise, I have used launchers to good effect with pointers, but now I have a young Springer bitch and I wonder how I could use launchers to set up training sessions for her. We have an unlimited number of homing pigeons to use, but they are difficult to dizzy and plant for the flushing dog. Any sage advice from you would be very welcome.
I would not use them on a springer. Simply put the pigeons to sleep. Pup will probably catch them all, no big thing. The will have the pup's flushing wild birds harder. You start popping out bird's and you just may teach the pup to hesitate, blink, before the flush. If the pup is catching to many in your opinion, go to dizzying them and give them a few min to come around before turning the pup loose.
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Re: Selling the concept

Post by welsh » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:27 am

Pigeons are pretty easy to dizzy (see Hal's videos) & it is no big deal if a Springer catches them. Simply encourages a hard flush, which we want on this side of the pond.

How many times you can reuse a caught pigeon depends on the dog, tho.... :)

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by polmaise » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:47 pm

DonF wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:01 am
marysburg wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:55 pm
Polmaise, I have used launchers to good effect with pointers, but now I have a young Springer bitch and I wonder how I could use launchers to set up training sessions for her. We have an unlimited number of homing pigeons to use, but they are difficult to dizzy and plant for the flushing dog. Any sage advice from you would be very welcome.
I would not use them on a springer. Simply put the pigeons to sleep. Pup will probably catch them all, no big thing. The will have the pup's flushing wild birds harder. You start popping out bird's and you just may teach the pup to hesitate, blink, before the flush. If the pup is catching to many in your opinion, go to dizzying them and give them a few min to come around before turning the pup loose.
Each to their own and own devices . I watch in despair sometimes at even 'Our training methods' widely advocated by Trainers and Handlers alike and more often in our working tests for these spaniels that are awarded by judges on how well they stop or are steady to a Flush ..with Flushing dogs !...They fire a shot and blow a stop whistle then throw a dummy/Bird . ....?
Now ,let me get this right for a second ?
In Real life , a bird would flush , and then the dog should stop to the flush, and then the shot would be fired ,and then the bird would fall ,and then the dog will or will not be sent to retrieve .
Fortunately ,I teach mine to stop to a Flush First , So I just throw a Bird /dummy in the air and catch it myself . :wink: ..then I fire a shot , and then I blow the stop whistle ..when and or if it moves ...But It never does , because it was conditioned to Not ,when flushed first ,so the Stop whistle (if conditioned previously) is overlaying a known command , like a Collar ! :lol: . It works for some (people) who do it ,and If that is what you want .

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by gundogguy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:14 pm

welsh wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:27 am
Pigeons are pretty easy to dizzy (see Hal's videos) & it is no big deal if a Springer catches them. Simply encourages a hard flush, which we want on this side of the pond.

How many times you can reuse a caught pigeon depends on the dog, tho.... :)

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+1 Welsh you got that right. I have rehab and rested pegged birds for years. With never an issue. Being pegged one day in most cases just delayed their execution via 12 gauge at the next training session.
I'll repeat use of mechanical flushing traps for flushing spaniels is a no-no! Real spaniel folks that is men and women learn how to properly plant a training bird.
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Re: Selling the concept

Post by DonF » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:18 pm

Thing about pigeon's. if your dizzying them, don't use homer's. To much of a hand full, use feral barn type pigeons. Much smaller and much easier to get your hand around. I've only done a couple springer's and they were years ago. Back then I hadn't a clue how to get one to "hup" to flush. Todays if I were doing it I'd just about the same method I use to get a pointer to stop to flush. The dog has to understand and obey sit very well, if not, work more on that. Then with the dog sitting and still, throw a bird to fly away. The dog will move early on, re-inforce sit! Bring the dog around on a check cord you have in hand and give the hup command. Dog sit's and give it a moment and toss a bird, re-inforce sit command. The timing of the sit command and release of the bird is important. As the dog improve's staying seated with the release of the bird move the command and release ever closer together until you simply drop the verbal command and the released bird make's the dog sit. That is how I do stop to flush and certain it will work on hup to flush. The use of wild birds has a flaw, wild birds won't co-operate with the handler! They also don't give the handler advance notice where they are. With pointing dog's I use remote traps from day one with pigeon's. I would not use them with a flushing dog, your timing with them will probably suck! Rather dizzy or put them to sleep and make the pup think it will catch every bird. I'd start with dizzy and try to stay with dizzy. early on don't give the bird enough time to really come out of it, you want the bird to try to get away. Catching the bird get's the pup charging the bird harder from the time's it doesn't catch the bird. Using the trap you can keep the pup from ever catching the bird but you also start it hesitating before the flush, called blinking. Pup's that blink bird's sometime's allow the bird to run out on you. With wild bird's I suspect shooting the bird's start's sooner, other wise the wild birds would teach the pup to hesitate I would think. To over come that I believe I'd simply shoot all them I could. You want the pup putting the bird in the air. A drawback of the remote trap is your timing is off and you hit the pup with the trap a time or two and YOU will teach the pup to either blink or simply leave the bird. You could use foot traps, non remote. I use them on pointing dogs but wouldn't with a flushing dog. I would rather see the pup catch a bird trying to get away than have the pup capture the bird, trap and all! In these case's feral pigeon's are my friend. They will home a good number of miles as well as homer's and birds that get away simply go home. Those that don't get away are expendable. When the pup is right on pigeon's the turn over to game bird's should be simple. keep in mind that your pup hasn't a clue in the beginning what the difference is in a pigeon and a game bird! Use that to your advantage. When I turn pup's over to game birds I like to use wild birds if available. reason for that is you turn a trained pointing dog over on pen raised bird's that may not fly well or like to run around and you start undoing everything you just finished doing. You make a pigeon act like a wild bird for a reason, the wild bird WILL act like a wild bird and just a time or three on a wild bird and the pup figure's one with the other. If you do a flushing pup with pigeon's and start shooting fairly soon, the pup learns it put's a bird in the air and you will shoot it. Also if it catch's the bird on the ground it encourage's the pup to go in harder thinking it actually can catch the bird. When it can't, you do shoot the bird and the pup get's the bird anyway! The idea it seem's to me is teach the pup how to get what it want's by your rule's! Keep the pup from catching the bird and the pup at some point will start to blink, trying to think it's way to the bird. Hit the pup with a remote trap a couple time's and you teach the pup if it goes in it will get punished. The pup doesn't know wild from pen raised. I wish I had a way to know where wild birds were all the time and had a way to control them for training purpose's but I don't. Then I'd see wild bird's as ideal!

I think the biggest problem in training any breed or type dog is the handler over thinking the situation. Guarantee the dog only want's the bird and the handler's job is to show it how to do that. KISS! There are some people on facebook raising field cocker's, English I think, and got to see a short video of one a few day's ago. It was really great watching the dog. Oh, one more thing, learn to read the pup. You do that and your gonna have a good idea of what's gonna happen before it does. Greatly improves your timing! When a flushing dog hit's scent you should recognize it right away.

I had the opertunity to watch two of the best flushing dog trainer's year's ago when I had Springer's. Dr's Chris Christensen and his wife Janet. Every month I'd go to fun days just to watch these two, increditable they were. if your into flushing dog's and can get to a field club fun days, go, it's an eye opener!
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Re: Selling the concept

Post by polmaise » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:34 pm

If we can only get the pigeons to play ball ! :D

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by DonF » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:15 am

I use remote trap's, they always do exactly as I tell them. :-) I think the bad thing is those wanting to give the dog one more chance to do what we want. Slow's thing's down because when we do that, we teach a mistake. A wild bird will likely not do that! That is allow the dog leway! let's give him one more step and see if he does it simply slows thing down. Speaking of flushing dog's and pigeons, I don't pay anything for pigeons and if I were doing flushing dog's, pigeon's are expendable. If I was using say chukar or God forbid pheasant's then the cost goes way up. Chukar's run abut $10 each around here and pheasant's a lot more! Getting into wild chukars is gonna take more effort than I care for anymore or maybe even can handle. Pheasant's? Well I saw one a week or so ago. First one I've seen around here in years! My pigeon's crap on my neighbor's roof! But I do wish there were lot's of wild birds around to get a pup going. Well a pointing pup. Flushing pup? Like them to catch bird's on the ground or at the flush. They won't catch to many wild bird's that way!
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Re: Selling the concept

Post by polmaise » Wed May 01, 2019 4:01 pm

Just hunting and shooting over a Spaniel teaches one more, than following one to tell you where the game may be.

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Re: Selling the concept

Post by Trekmoor » Thu May 02, 2019 4:15 am

Quote - "Fortunately ,I teach mine to stop to a Flush First , So I just throw a Bird /dummy in the air and catch it myself . ..then I fire a shot , and then I blow the stop whistle ..when and or if it moves ...But It never does , because it was conditioned to Not ,when flushed first ,so the Stop whistle (if conditioned previously) is overlaying a known command , like a Collar ! . It works for some (people) who do it ,and If that is what you want ." End quote.


I do much the same thing. I train a stop to flush on it's own, then a stop to shot on it's own, then a stop to "fall" on it's own before putting these things together and actually shooting a bird over a pointer or a spaniel. Each "command" to stop reinforces the previous one. It means that when a dog flushes a bird and that bird is shot, the dog has had 3 commands to stop without me ever having to say a word to the dog or blow the stop whistle on it. Each "command" to stop is a command in it's own right.


Two or three years ago I competed in a novice field trial with my brittany and she had never had a single bird shot over her points.... i can't shoot any more due to ill-health. The guns in the trial shot over her though , one of her flushes producing 3 birds down at the same time. She made no attempt to run in . She did not win the trial but I was very pleased to see that no matter how exciting things became around her she still did not run in . It is a training method that has worked very well for me for many years and with many dogs. No dog I have trialed has ever attempted to run-in during a trial.


Bill T.
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