Rattle snakes and a pup

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work765
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Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by work765 » Sun May 05, 2019 8:18 am

I’m in Southern California and the snakes are coming out. Up until about a month ago I was hiking my 9 month old GSP almost always off leash in the mountains about 4 x a week. We have been bumping into snakes and I’ve started putting her on the leash to avoid getting bit.
I’m going to do the snake avoidance class, but I’m sure she’s still at risk of getting bit.

What do you guys do that live in rattlesnake areas? Do you keep your dog leashed during the Peak snake season? Or do you just do the snake avoidance class and then let them off leash and cross your fingers?

She almost already got bit by a baby that didn’t even rattle when she was well within strike range. She was about 12” from the snake and sniffing it.




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Warrior372
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by Warrior372 » Sun May 05, 2019 8:25 pm

I am in Southwest Idaho and have run into similar issues. I did rattlesnake avoidance - which helped - but to your point the snake has to be rattling before it cues the dogs trained avoidance. I had the exact same thing happen with my dog - my dog ran within 3 feet of a juvenile rattlesnake 2 times in a row before it rattled.

There is a vaccine called the Red Rocks vaccine. Claims to slow the response to the venom and allow you more time to get to a veterinarian. Mixed reviews, but possibility of more time might be worth it. — Also hunt with Benadryl in your bag - my vet has told me this will help slow the response again allowing you more time to get to a vet.

A lot of upland hunters in Idaho that I know will avoid hunting through September to allow it to cool down so rattlers are not as prevalent.

I always check where the closest veterinary clinic - that will be open - is to where I am hunting. Most of my trips take me out of reasonable driving range of my normal vet as well as established 24/7 emergency vets. So I look up and keep the clinic address and phone numbers close to areas I hunt. Also know who carries rattlesnake anti-venom in your area - only one vet does in SW Idaho and it is $3k per vial.

Finally, if you just exercise your dog in an area that has a lot of rattlesnakes you could look into a product called turtle skin snake armor. I have no first hand experience with it, but it is made for exactly what you are talking about. It comes as a vest and as a neck protector to cover both vital areas. If you are curious about this just call up GunDogSupply. They will give you honest feedback on it.

I hope that helps.

averageguy
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by averageguy » Mon May 06, 2019 5:55 am

Rattlesnake avoidance training, done right, includes teaching the dog to avoid the scent of the snake as well as the sight and sound, so that rattling is not the only cue the dog will react to.

work765
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Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by work765 » Mon May 06, 2019 8:09 am

Warrior372 wrote:I am in Southwest Idaho and have run into similar issues. I did rattlesnake avoidance - which helped - but to your point the snake has to be rattling before it cues the dogs trained avoidance. I had the exact same thing happen with my dog - my dog ran within 3 feet of a juvenile rattlesnake 2 times in a row before it rattled.

There is a vaccine called the Red Rocks vaccine. Claims to slow the response to the venom and allow you more time to get to a veterinarian. Mixed reviews, but possibility of more time might be worth it. — Also hunt with Benadryl in your bag - my vet has told me this will help slow the response again allowing you more time to get to a vet.

A lot of upland hunters in Idaho that I know will avoid hunting through September to allow it to cool down so rattlers are not as prevalent.

I always check where the closest veterinary clinic - that will be open - is to where I am hunting. Most of my trips take me out of reasonable driving range of my normal vet as well as established 24/7 emergency vets. So I look up and keep the clinic address and phone numbers close to areas I hunt. Also know who carries rattlesnake anti-venom in your area - only one vet does in SW Idaho and it is $3k per vial.

Finally, if you just exercise your dog in an area that has a lot of rattlesnakes you could look into a product called turtle skin snake armor. I have no first hand experience with it, but it is made for exactly what you are talking about. It comes as a vest and as a neck protector to cover both vital areas. If you are curious about this just call up GunDogSupply. They will give you honest feedback on it.

I hope that helps.
Thanks for the info! Great idea about finding the closest vet to where we go hike that has the anti venom. And yeah I’ve heard the same mixed reviews about the vaccine. Seems like some are believers and others say it does nothing. Maybe I’ll get it to just be safe.
Also read a few posts awhile ago about Benadryl, still seems like it’s effectiveness is questionable. But if it helps any, why would people not carry it.
My pup got stung by a bee a few months back and one pill of Benadryl brought her face which doubled in size back to normal! She looked like one of those boxers after a prize fight!

Time for some more research and setting up some sort of plan.

Thanks [IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201905 ... fdb94b.jpg[/IMG]



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Last edited by work765 on Mon May 06, 2019 8:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

work765
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Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by work765 » Mon May 06, 2019 8:12 am

^^ that’s the bee sting face!

Non bee sting below.
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Garrison
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by Garrison » Mon May 06, 2019 10:48 am

I’m also in Southern California, we run in to rattlers all the time. Bird dogs are bred to find things, if they are not snake broke it’s just a matter of time before they get bit. My sister’s dog got bit in the face two years ago in my parents avocado grove, not fun. I don’t allow my pups to free run in snakey areas until they have learned that snakes are a very unpleasant experience.

I have assisted a pro bird dog trainer with snake breaking a whole string of dogs, on average he gets in to 15-20 rattlers a year where he trains. I have also attended a weekend clinic with a trainer who was working with pet owners. There was a huge difference in the training and in my opinion long term effectiveness of the training. The process should be pretty harsh. If the majority of pet owners witnessed proper trash breaking they would have a really hard time with it. But the result is a dog that won’t get within 10 feet of a snake for a life time. We went through the process with my GSP when he was a little over a year. I now know when a snake is around because he is going the other direction as soon as he smells it. I took him to the weekend pet clinic with my sister after her dog got bit, I figured it wouldn’t hurt to do a tune up. The training snakes were in a horse arena, he smelled them when he got out of the truck and I couldn’t drag him any closer then 25 feet. He was 7 years old at the time. The trainer gave me my money back.

The point is, not all avoidance training is the same. If the trainer wants or allows you to be present, it is probably not the best use of your money if you are concerned about the lasting safety of your dog. That said of course any avoidance training is better then none. The bird dog’s great nose that can get them in to trouble can also be trained to keep them out of trouble.

I avoid all areas where the Mojave Green resides until it is cold enough for them to den up. They are bad news and recovery for anything bit is not likely.

The efficacy of the vaccine is debatable, but for $30 a year, “maybe” is worth it to me.

It is also worth having a conversation with your vet about proper care for your dog if and when the unfortunate encounter happens.

Garrison

work765
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by work765 » Mon May 06, 2019 3:57 pm

Garrison wrote:I’m also in Southern California, we run in to rattlers all the time. Bird dogs are bred to find things, if they are not snake broke it’s just a matter of time before they get bit. My sister’s dog got bit in the face two years ago in my parents avocado grove, not fun. I don’t allow my pups to free run in snakey areas until they have learned that snakes are a very unpleasant experience.

I have assisted a pro bird dog trainer with snake breaking a whole string of dogs, on average he gets in to 15-20 rattlers a year where he trains. I have also attended a weekend clinic with a trainer who was working with pet owners. There was a huge difference in the training and in my opinion long term effectiveness of the training. The process should be pretty harsh. If the majority of pet owners witnessed proper trash breaking they would have a really hard time with it. But the result is a dog that won’t get within 10 feet of a snake for a life time. We went through the process with my GSP when he was a little over a year. I now know when a snake is around because he is going the other direction as soon as he smells it. I took him to the weekend pet clinic with my sister after her dog got bit, I figured it wouldn’t hurt to do a tune up. The training snakes were in a horse arena, he smelled them when he got out of the truck and I couldn’t drag him any closer then 25 feet. He was 7 years old at the time. The trainer gave me my money back.

The point is, not all avoidance training is the same. If the trainer wants or allows you to be present, it is probably not the best use of your money if you are concerned about the lasting safety of your dog. That said of course any avoidance training is better then none. The bird dog’s great nose that can get them in to trouble can also be trained to keep them out of trouble.

I avoid all areas where the Mojave Green resides until it is cold enough for them to den up. They are bad news and recovery for anything bit is not likely.

The efficacy of the vaccine is debatable, but for $30 a year, “maybe” is worth it to me.

It is also worth having a conversation with your vet about proper care for your dog if and when the unfortunate encounter happens.

Garrison
Do you mind sharing the info of the dog trainer that does the snake breaking as well?

Did you send your dog to this guy to be trained or do you train your own?

And I’m with you on how I would prefer the class to be. I’m not looking for a class full of French bulldogs. I take my dog out a lot and she loves to dive head fist into thick brush. I want to keep her alive and healthy.


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Warrior372
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by Warrior372 » Mon May 06, 2019 8:18 pm

An advantage of a pro trainer is that they might be more likely to use actual rattlesnakes. None of the snake avoidance classes around me actually use rattlers. They all use gopher snakes. When actual rattlesnakes are used the dog can be conditioned to avoid the scent as well.

Fishmongerjoe
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Mon May 06, 2019 9:02 pm

averageguy wrote:Rattlesnake avoidance training, done right, includes teaching the dog to avoid the scent of the snake as well as the sight and sound, so that rattling is not the only cue the dog will react to.
I think this the correct answer. By all means take every necessary precaution but at the end of the day a snake broke dog avoiding all signs is probably going too be the most effective way of not getting bit.


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Garrison
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by Garrison » Mon May 06, 2019 9:39 pm

work765 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 3:57 pm
Garrison wrote:I’m also in Southern California, we run in to rattlers all the time. Bird dogs are bred to find things, if they are not snake broke it’s just a matter of time before they get bit. My sister’s dog got bit in the face two years ago in my parents avocado grove, not fun. I don’t allow my pups to free run in snakey areas until they have learned that snakes are a very unpleasant experience.

I have assisted a pro bird dog trainer with snake breaking a whole string of dogs, on average he gets in to 15-20 rattlers a year where he trains. I have also attended a weekend clinic with a trainer who was working with pet owners. There was a huge difference in the training and in my opinion long term effectiveness of the training. The process should be pretty harsh. If the majority of pet owners witnessed proper trash breaking they would have a really hard time with it. But the result is a dog that won’t get within 10 feet of a snake for a life time. We went through the process with my GSP when he was a little over a year. I now know when a snake is around because he is going the other direction as soon as he smells it. I took him to the weekend pet clinic with my sister after her dog got bit, I figured it wouldn’t hurt to do a tune up. The training snakes were in a horse arena, he smelled them when he got out of the truck and I couldn’t drag him any closer then 25 feet. He was 7 years old at the time. The trainer gave me my money back.

The point is, not all avoidance training is the same. If the trainer wants or allows you to be present, it is probably not the best use of your money if you are concerned about the lasting safety of your dog. That said of course any avoidance training is better then none. The bird dog’s great nose that can get them in to trouble can also be trained to keep them out of trouble.

I avoid all areas where the Mojave Green resides until it is cold enough for them to den up. They are bad news and recovery for anything bit is not likely.

The efficacy of the vaccine is debatable, but for $30 a year, “maybe” is worth it to me.

It is also worth having a conversation with your vet about proper care for your dog if and when the unfortunate encounter happens.

Garrison
Do you mind sharing the info of the dog trainer that does the snake breaking as well?

Did you send your dog to this guy to be trained or do you train your own?

And I’m with you on how I would prefer the class to be. I’m not looking for a class full of French bulldogs. I take my dog out a lot and she loves to dive head fist into thick brush. I want to keep her alive and healthy.


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He has retired from training. I would contact your local NAVHDA chapters and or some local pro trainers to see if they can get you in touch with someone.

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Featherfinder
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Tue May 07, 2019 6:22 am

SUPER response Garrison! I don't see many rattlers in AZ because we are done there late in the season but I really like what you/your trainer offered in that proper snake breaking may be harsh BUT it likely to be the most effective. My dog(s) is worth it!
I would like to know the pro that does this too, please?

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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by averageguy » Tue May 07, 2019 6:24 am

I took my dog through Rattlesnake avoidance training last summer in SD. The guy used a live prairie rattler with its fangs broke off and mouth sewed shut. I watched as he and his wife did both. He worked each dog on a check cord towards the snake and applied ecollar at the highest level. Started with letting the dog see and hear the snake, then moved to working the dog in from the downwind side getting scent. None of the dogs wanted any part of it when they hit the scent but they got the treatment a second time none the less. The trainer handled the dogs to eliminate any association with the owner and keep the focus on the snake. As Garrison posted it is not pretty to watch. I will repeat the training again this summer. I second his suggestion to check with the closest NAVHDA Chapter.

The training class in Boise ID is bogus, I know because I attended the Porcupine Avoidance class put on by the same group a couple of summers ago.

I also use the vaccine as it is cheap and many vets in snake infested areas report they think it is effective in reducing symptoms. I was in an archery elk hunting camp where a GSP pup took a big dose bite to her shoulder. She had been vaccinated and the belief of the vet who treated her was it likely saved her life, but of course that cannot be proven. She was pretty sick for a few days and you can still see a scar at the area of the bite.

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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by mbumpus11 » Tue May 07, 2019 7:56 am

Fishmongerjoe wrote:
averageguy wrote:Rattlesnake avoidance training, done right, includes teaching the dog to avoid the scent of the snake as well as the sight and sound, so that rattling is not the only cue the dog will react to.
I think this the correct answer. By all means take every necessary precaution but at the end of the day a snake broke dog avoiding all signs is probably going too be the most effective way of not getting bit.
Completely agree this is the right way.

I’m in Texas, and we’ve got rattlers everywhere when it heats up. The best way to do it is to go to a quality snake avoidance training where they use real rattlers. It’s one of the most heartbreaking thing hearing your pup yelp as they hit the stim as they approach the snake, but I know for a fact that it works.

Would much rather hear two yelps from stim (one when no rattle and training to avoid scent, one when rattling) in the training than hearing a final yelp in the field from being bitten.

Of course, it’s not failproof, but I have a Brittany. They’re soft, and I know she won’t be going near snakes anytime soon!

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Garrison
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by Garrison » Tue May 07, 2019 11:22 pm

My sister’s pup after a Red Diamond bite. Red Diamonds are one of the least venomous rattlers.
079F803F-55B5-48E4-A248-A8341182E7A2.jpeg
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by oldbeek » Wed May 08, 2019 12:28 am

Sporting dog B&B, Bob Worell near Gorman CA, does snake avoidance with real snakes.Google them. Mojave Green rattlers, the anti venom does not work for this snake. It is prominent in the high desert. I had 7 in my yard last year. My dog is completely trained. she scents them , moves off a way. gives a few barks to warn me then goes to a safe place. Her kennel box in the truck, behind me, or into the house at home.

work765
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by work765 » Wed May 08, 2019 9:20 am

oldbeek wrote:Sporting dog B&B, Bob Worell near Gorman CA, does snake avoidance with real snakes.Google them. Mojave Green rattlers, the anti venom does not work for this snake. It is prominent in the high desert. I had 7 in my yard last year. My dog is completely trained. she scents them , moves off a way. gives a few barks to warn me then goes to a safe place. Her kennel box in the truck, behind me, or into the house at home.
Perfect! I’ll call them today. I’m Los Angeles. Gorman is close

Thanks


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work765
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Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by work765 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:30 am

oldbeek wrote:Sporting dog B&B, Bob Worell near Gorman CA, does snake avoidance with real snakes.Google them. Mojave Green rattlers, the anti venom does not work for this snake. It is prominent in the high desert. I had 7 in my yard last year. My dog is completely trained. she scents them , moves off a way. gives a few barks to warn me then goes to a safe place. Her kennel box in the truck, behind me, or into the house at home.
Did the snake training! Well actually a friend of mine took my pup because I couldn’t make it. She said it was a pretty legit operation.

I can’t upload video, so here’s a couple pics from the video of my dog doing a backflip when they put her on the first snake! After a couple of those zaps. She wanted nothing at all to do with those snakes!

Do you know anything about B&B’s gun dog program?

[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201906 ... 7f112f.jpg[/IMG][IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201906 ... d099db.jpg[/IMG]


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oldbeek
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Re: Rattle snakes and a pup

Post by oldbeek » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:40 pm

In NSTRA where I compete, there are some well trained dogs that Bob has trained. Nice people. Kennel is super clean and I think they have a pick up and delivery service for dogs out of LA on a once a week basis. Google,, Sporting dogs B & B

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