training a pointing breed to sit on command

Novice123
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:07 pm
Location: Minnesota

training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Novice123 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:30 am

My pup is 5 weeks old now. I am really looking forward to taking ownership (French Brittany). I went to visit the breeder and he didn't understand why I wanted to teach my dog the 'sit' command. I told him that I wanted that command to keep my dog under control when we go in or out of our house or when the dog is let in or out of it's outside kennel. I will also teach heel, come & kennel. In the dog training video that I watch, 'sit' and 'stay' are one and the same command. The breeder was concerned that teaching 'sit' might result in the dog sitting when the dog is broke to wing and shot. However, I have no interest in breaking my dog to wing and shot. I am interested in a hunting dog for upland birds that will point and retrieve. What do you think of teaching 'sit' to a pointing dog? What is the reasoning for teaching a dog to be broke to wing and shot? As a beginning trainer, I don't want to mess up my dog's mind with training to be broke to wing and shot for fear of making a 'blinker' out of it. I am saying this in the context that I have never trained a dog to be steady to wing and shot and am obviously not a professional trainer or even an experienced amateur. With no plans to train the dog to be steady to wing and shot, I see no value in the 'whoa' command and instead was planning to use the 'sit' command. Please help me with the logic or lack of logic of my ideas.

Steve007
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Steve007 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:59 am

The Internet has its limits – or perhaps my typing skills have their limits. I'm sure others will fill in for my unwillingness to address the subject of why your dog should be steady to wing. Steady to shot is a different story for many. But I'd suggest you read a few basic books on the subject of training pointing dogs.

As an aside, there is no reason you shouldn't train your pointing dog to sit (and down) for general control around the house or when out, and to make him a better companion. But it has no relevance in the field, except when hanging around and not actively hunting. The theory on the part of some is by training them to sit, he will, under pressure, sit in the field instead of holding his point. He won't, or, if so, stand him back up and tell him to hold his whoa. Whoa is a separate command, and you should teach it, as well as down. He won't confuse them. My wirehair has a UD, which is an extremely advanced competition obedience title. He understands sit very well. But it has no relevance in the field when working birds for a pointing dog.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed May 22, 2019 9:32 am

Steve007 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:59 am
The Internet has its limits – or perhaps my typing skills have their limits. I'm sure others will fill in for my unwillingness to address the subject of why your dog should be steady to wing. Steady to shot is a different story for many. But I'd suggest you read a few basic books on the subject of training pointing dogs.

As an aside, there is no reason you shouldn't train your pointing dog to sit (and down) for general control around the house or when out, and to make him a better companion. But it has no relevance in the field, except when hanging around and not actively hunting. The theory on the part of some is by training them to sit, he will, under pressure, sit in the field instead of holding his point. He won't, or, if so, stand him back up and tell him to hold his whoa. Whoa is a separate command, and you should teach it, as well as down. He won't confuse them. My wirehair has a UD, which is an extremely advanced competition obedience title. He understands sit very well. But it has no relevance in the field when working birds for a pointing dog.
I agree totally with Steve. The only time sit has, or can have an adverse effect on the dog, is when it is taught as a default response. Balance all of your commands and you won't have a problem. You're wrong about whoa. It is a vital command in teaching a dog not to creep or teaching it to honor. I want a dog at LEAST steady through the flush. I don't think it's all that important they're steady to shot but THEY DO MARK THE FALL BETTER WHEN STEADY TO SHOT.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Novice123
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:07 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Novice123 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:51 am

Steve and Gone Hunting: it is only with a humble attitude that I ask the opinion of those on this forum. With the answers the two of you have provided, I can now see the value of teaching my dog the 'whoa' command and the 'sit' command. The breeder is willing to help me for a small fee and encouraged me to train my dog to be steady to wing and shot. When my dog is really strong on holding it's points and has the proper maturity and hunting drive, I may very well seek the trainer/breeders help to teach the dog to be steady to wing and shot. It might be fun to trial my dog, if it turned out to have that level of talent.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed May 22, 2019 10:58 am

Each and every thing you teach your dog to compete in a trial will show HUGE benefits in daily hunting.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

averageguy
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by averageguy » Wed May 22, 2019 11:49 am

Novice123,

I have taught all of my GWP puppies to sit because we hunt doves and then teal before the quail and pheasant seasons open during the puppy's first hunting season. I need and want my pup to sit beside me and mark and retrieve doves starting on Sept 1st and they all have. I also teach Whoa and have evolved to training my pups to be steady to Wing, Shot and Fall. Through the long wild bird seasons hunting alone I am not in a good position to maintain the steady to fall standard and don't, but I do require my pups/dogs to be steady to wing because it keeps them safely out of my line of fire when birds fly from their points and I am trying to shoot them. After the close of hunting seasons I can easily train them back to a steady to WSF standard for running a hunt test and recently did that with my current dog, and it was easily done requiring just a few well timed and understood corrections.

Opinions will vary on when it is best to teach your pup to be steady to wing or shot or fall. The two basic camps are 1. let the pup hunt through its first wild bird season and then steady it up when it closes and before its second season. I would be in that camp. or 2. steady the pup before you hunt it. A big dose of practical as to how old the pup is when it's first hunting seasons arrives figure into that, or at least should in my opinion. I want to develop the most bold hard going wild bird finder my pups are capable of and that figures into why I wait until after their first season to steady them up. It does make for some challenges in that I have to change some behavior I have allowed to occur up to that point. I have a gentle enough approach to my steadiness training and my dogs get so much hunting experience in their first seasons that it has always worked out fine for us. Opinions absolutely vary in this area.

The Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs are excellent materials for you to study before your pup arrives and will give you a great mental roadmap for alot of what will be coming your way in your pup's development and training soon. There are others. Joan Bailey's book is a great one for first timers and includes alot of exposure activities/advise.

Having taught sit first I have had instances where my pups would on occasion sit when we were training on whoa but it is a very minor short term training matter. All that I had to do was calmly stand the puppy back up on its feet and gently say whoa and praise it for maintaining the correct position. They all easily learned the difference in these two commands and many other commands. I have never had a pup/dog sit while on point.

Novice123
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:07 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Novice123 » Wed May 22, 2019 3:06 pm

Wow, thanks for the help. I know I can get the real deal here from people that have a lifetime of experience.

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3810
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by DonF » Thu May 23, 2019 10:48 am

I find whoa a very necessary command. It give's you control over the dog in all situations. Example, years ago I went to a vet that was right on a busy stretch of US 30 in Oregon. While I was inside someone came along and let my old GSP, Hannah, out of her kennel box in the truck. I didn't notice it till I got home and went back in time to see her getting ready to step out in the heavy traffic. Rolled down the window and called whoa to her and stopped her right there! The command to stop and hold your dog could be anything you want so long as you understand the command. ie: the sit command or down command would also be used. Both would have the same effect. We use the commands we use only because we understand what they mean, dog is clueless! It learns to associate a function with a sound, pretty much simple as that. On the sit command and pointing, had a guy come down with his dog for some help. The dog would be told whoa and sit every time. Watch the dog and it became obvious that sit was a safe position for the dog to a command it did not understand. Took a few min with the dog and the problem went completely away. Reason, the dog learned what the command meant so no more problem. The guy was so close but wasn't reading what his dog was telling him. Think about that. The dog doesn't understand english and the bad part is many people don't take the time to understand the dog. I teach whoa. And now and then do use it around birds, but not in the beginning. In separate yard exercise's I teach the dog a flushing bird means whoa and a walking bird means whoa. Remove the word command and make an action command. If for no other reason to teach your dog to stop in place and stay there till relieved, it could save your dog's life, it did for my Hannah.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

JONOV
Rank: Champion
Posts: 394
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:26 am
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by JONOV » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:02 pm

I use "whoa" walking the dog on the local walking paths when bikes come by.

I did pair it with "Down!" too often and at one point I whoa'ed him on a point and and he hit the deck. To be fair, he had pointed maybe 1 bird out of 10 that way (Setting as opposed to a standing point) since he was a pup.

I quit pairing the two and gently corrected a not-asked-for down a couple times and it hasn't been a concern since.

Steve007
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Steve007 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:06 pm

JONOV wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:02 pm
I use "whoa" walking the dog on the local walking paths when bikes come by.

I did pair it with "Down!" too often and at one point I whoa'ed him on a point and and he hit the deck.
I used to have "gunfights" with my dog Raspberry. We'd face-off, crouch, and threaten one another. "Are you the one they call the Raspberry Kid?", I'd snarl. Then she'd bark at me. "You killed my brother, Raspberry Kid. But I finally tracked you down. Go for your gun!" And then I'd outdraw her. She'd stagger sideways, and I'd shoot again (with my finger). Then she'd fall over with all four paws in the air.

It was great at parties and in front of friends. But ultimately, it got to where I'd gesture in her direction unrelated to our gunfight, and she'd fall over. So I had to quit. It was in the days before AKC Trick Dog Titles, or we might've won a prize.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 8318
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Sharon » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:34 pm

:lol: :lol:
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote

User avatar
greg jacobs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 am
Location: selah washington

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by greg jacobs » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:20 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:32 am
Steve007 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:59 am
The Internet has its limits – or perhaps my typing skills have their limits. I'm sure others will fill in for my unwillingness to address the subject of why your dog should be steady to wing. Steady to shot is a different story for many. But I'd suggest you read a few basic books on the subject of training pointing dogs.

As an aside, there is no reason you shouldn't train your pointing dog to sit (and down) for general control around the house or when out, and to make him a better companion. But it has no relevance in the field, except when hanging around and not actively hunting. The theory on the part of some is by training them to sit, he will, under pressure, sit in the field instead of holding his point. He won't, or, if so, stand him back up and tell him to hold his whoa. Whoa is a separate command, and you should teach it, as well as down. He won't confuse them. My wirehair has a UD, which is an extremely advanced competition obedience title. He understands sit very well. But it has no relevance in the field when working birds for a pointing dog.
I agree totally with Steve. The only time sit has, or can have an adverse effect on the dog, is when it is taught as a default response. Balance all of your commands and you won't have a problem. You're wrong about whoa. It is a vital command in teaching a dog not to creep or teaching it to honor. I want a dog at LEAST steady through the flush. I don't think it's all that important they're steady to shot but THEY DO MARK THE FALL BETTER WHEN STEADY TO SHOT.
I've seen dogs default to sit when pressure is applied during training. Not what you want in a pointing dog. Beginners can easily overemphasized the sit command. I believe the breeder is trying to help you not make a normal beginners mistake. Might consider whoa instead. I like what Don had to say..
I personally don't teach sit and down to a young pointing breed pup.

setterpoint
Rank: Champion
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:10 pm
Location: jellico tn

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by setterpoint » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:21 am

I teach whoa and heel come or hear and that's all I need my dogs to do,there's nothing wrong if you want to teach sit but don't see a need for it
and I have seen a dog that was taught to sit on command at an early age and they must have done it wiith ots of praise
when it came time for formal training when the dog got a little pressure put on it would want to sit down
I think that was what got the dog praise and that was it's way out of tougher training but ever thing worked out
so my take on this is don't make training harder for you and the dog so I would teach sit if you want but I would do it last

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:15 pm

Just for Interest sake ?
Does your dog know the word command 'Sit' ? ..or even Whoa' ? ..
Try standing still with the dog behind you sniffing a butt or chewing grass or something ?
Look forward to the videos.

User avatar
Urban_Redneck
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:56 pm
Location: NE PA

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Urban_Redneck » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:53 am

greg jacobs wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:20 am

I've seen dogs default to sit when pressure is applied during training. Not what you want in a pointing dog. Beginners can easily overemphasized the sit command. I believe the breeder is trying to help you not make a normal beginners mistake. Might consider whoa instead. I like what Don had to say..
I personally don't teach sit and down to a young pointing breed pup.
This.

birds
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:05 pm
Location: montana

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by birds » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:53 am
greg jacobs wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:20 am

I've seen dogs default to sit when pressure is applied during training. Not what you want in a pointing dog. Beginners can easily overemphasized the sit command. I believe the breeder is trying to help you not make a normal beginners mistake. Might consider whoa instead. I like what Don had to say..
I personally don't teach sit and down to a young pointing breed pup.
This.
So do you just let them jump all over everyone and the furniture? Or does whoa cover that too?

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:14 pm

The complexities of the 'English Language' ! :lol:
Meanwhile in Dog world.........
I wonder if some take 'Whoa' as a 'Noooa' , or just plain do what it thinks is right.
'Sit' could mean 'S*(h)it' to some?
...
Training any breed to 'Sit' on command surely must be the easiest thing in the world for a 'Hooman' ? :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi_6SaqVQSw

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 8318
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Sharon » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:16 pm

birds wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 pm
Urban_Redneck wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:53 am
greg jacobs wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:20 am

I've seen dogs default to sit when pressure is applied during training. Not what you want in a pointing dog. Beginners can easily overemphasized the sit command. I believe the breeder is trying to help you not make a normal beginners mistake. Might consider whoa instead. I like what Don had to say..
I personally don't teach sit and down to a young pointing breed pup.
This.
So do you just let them jump all over everyone and the furniture? Or does whoa cover that too?
My dogs also live indoors. I use a variety of commands other than sit/whoa - "off!" , "go away!" @#$%^&*
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote

Steve007
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Steve007 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:37 pm

Sharon wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:16 pm
birds wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 pm

So do you just let them jump all over everyone and the furniture? Or does whoa cover that too?
My dog also live indoors. I use a variety of commands other than sit/whoa - "off!" , "go away!" @#$%^&*
Well, you've got a herd of rescue Jack Russells, Sharon. Training is, shall we say, of limited value, regardless of words. :wink:

Birds is correct. Presuming the dogs are expected to be indoor dogs and well mannered, that is.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:48 pm

Sharon wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:16 pm

My dogs also live indoors. I use a variety of commands other than sit/whoa - "off!" , "go away!" @#$%^&*
And I bet You use plenty 'Tone' and Body language Too! :lol:
...
Personally I use the word 'Bananas' ! ...Just to get a reaction from the Humans.

User avatar
Urban_Redneck
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:56 pm
Location: NE PA

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Urban_Redneck » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:27 am

birds wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 pm
Urban_Redneck wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:53 am
greg jacobs wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:20 am

I've seen dogs default to sit when pressure is applied during training. Not what you want in a pointing dog. Beginners can easily overemphasized the sit command. I believe the breeder is trying to help you not make a normal beginners mistake. Might consider whoa instead. I like what Don had to say..
I personally don't teach sit and down to a young pointing breed pup.
This.
So do you just let them jump all over everyone and the furniture? Or does whoa cover that too?
"Off" covers furniture, the best way to eliminate jumping is turn and deny acknowledgement until pup calms down. I have a jumper she'll jump vertically alongside me while at heel :oops: I use the command "four" (often just 4 fingers is enough now) as in 4 on the floor.

Sit isn't the problem per se, it's the overuse of "sit". What I've seen happen more than once- handler approaches the dog on point, the dog feels the pressure of uncertainty, and offers the easy behavior that always get rewarded- sit. Pups naturally sit often enough, reward it when it's appropriate and ignore it when it's not.

Come, whoa (stop, stand still until released), and heel, cover about 90% of what I need out of a pet bird dog in the first year.

$0.02

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:42 am

Novice 123, we ALL started out where you are so be fair to yourself. I guess the easy response (re steadiness) is to ask those that have been here awhile as to what they aspire from their bird dogs (even if they don't invest the time in achieving their aspirations). Or you can take the long winding road that many of us before you did.
I wish I could have 1 dollar for every hunter that says, "I don't need all that field trial BS. I just want a decent hunting dog." Well, the definition of a decent hunting dog is as wide as that of a "finished dog".
Without imposing on your goals, I like a little polish on my personal gun dogs, as do most of the people I come into contact with. Yes, it is a little more work but blinking is not a derivation of developing a steady to wing and shot dog. It is the result of improper training or in some cases, a dog that simply does not have the fabric. People forget that even when they buy from decent blood lines. Some dogs are just not mentally cut out to be high class performers....period. As in any sport, your mental strength can be as challenging as the physical side, if not more-so.
A dog that is completely steady and marks competently, will most often out-retrieve a dog that is allowed to break on the flush or shot. If you actually think it through in a practical sense, you will deduct the obvious advantages. If you are still unsure, go to a retriever trial.
Then, you throw in the safety aspects of hunting with folk that have never hunted or rarely hunted over an unbroke pointing dog and you peel back yet another tangible advantage in steadiness. Finally, there is a lot of pride that comes from your dog doing a polished job. Thank God that most of us do not HAVE to hunt upland birds to feed our families or pay the bills. As such, upland hunting is an invite to experience and actually be a part of our outdoor resources with friends, our dogs AND to make memories doing so!
Teaching "sit" has no discernable disadvantage TYPICALLY. I had a Britt here that came from a nice chap that had Labs before this Britt- his first pointing dog. OMG!!! The dog sat if you called him! He sat if you walked him and stopped even instantaneously! He sat at the end of my truck before loading up into a crate! He sat if you spoke to him! He sat and sat and sat!! I called the owner to share in this challenge because I was having to fix a very young dog instead of just pursuing the natural developmental training. Now THAT "sit" can be a problem. Typically, no dog wants to sit while pointing or before a retrieve because it puts the dog at a distinct disadvantage (the excited anticipation of being released to get a downed bird).
As with most things in life, just don't over-do it.
Our friends on the other side of the pond put a great deal of emphasis on "sit". There is nothing wrong with it if you don't mind your dog sitting while on point, etc. I personally do not appreciate that. It's just me.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3616
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by slistoe » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:19 pm

birds wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 pm
Urban_Redneck wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:53 am
greg jacobs wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:20 am

I've seen dogs default to sit when pressure is applied during training. Not what you want in a pointing dog. Beginners can easily overemphasized the sit command. I believe the breeder is trying to help you not make a normal beginners mistake. Might consider whoa instead. I like what Don had to say..
I personally don't teach sit and down to a young pointing breed pup.
This.
So do you just let them jump all over everyone and the furniture? Or does whoa cover that too?
NO! covers that.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:44 pm

Our friends on the other side of the pond put a great deal of emphasis on "sit". There is nothing wrong with it if you don't mind your dog sitting while on point, etc. I personally do not appreciate that. It's just me.
Never seen it !
Only a fool would command it

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1880
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:59 am

No dog of mine and no dog I have seen has sat while on point. The training must have gone wrong for a dog to do that. I think a dog that did sit on point must be expecting what it perceives to be a correction of some kind ?

I do train my dogs to sit after they have flushed the bird, mainly because it looks "tidier" in field trials but I know from experience that dogs can flush birds on command and then just stand there to "watch the bird away." I have seen this happen with pointing dogs and with spaniels. Provided the dog remains standing with no forward creeping, I would be happy to accept that if I was judging a trial.

My old cocker "Billy" was a natural stander. I have seen him stand stock still for more than 5 minutes after a flush on a bird or a rabbit. From time to time I did command him to sit and he used to give me a look that meant.... "Why ?" His pup "Charlie" was very different. If he flushed a rabbit , he would either do a very fast sit or he would be chasing it …. depending upon how much recent training he'd had ! :lol:

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:58 am

That sounds great Trekmoor/Bill. The dogs that sit when on point often are defaulting to a place they now to have served them in the past to relieve the pressure they feel from wanting to chase BUT not doing being able to do so. It can be the training but not always. As I mentioned, some dogs just struggle with the mental process - some because they have an inner conflict while others (I call them thinkers) are SO engrossed in thinking the process through that they become overwhelmed. Again, being a successful athlete is not restricted to physical attributes. The mental side is HUGE!
I had a small Brittany bitch that was braced with a very muscular English pointer in horseback trial. Try as she might to get to the birds before him, she failed. At one point on the course we made a sharp turn. I couldn't see my girl. The judge spotted her for me. He said, "She's out front of her brace-mate."
I was confounded! How did she get there? I know how. She cut the course through the dense woods to get out front! You don't "train" that. That's a thinker. They can be awesome or they can be a royal pain in the asterisk!
Often times, the fix for the sitter-on-point can be VERY hard on the trainer/owner. It often requires that you do NOTHING. These dogs will process the critical info at their own speed. Soon enough they deduct that sitting puts them at a disadvantage. Instead, too many trainers want to get in there and fix things. That adds even more pressure/ambiguity which in fact can inure the problem.
I had a shorthair here that sat on point but not all the time. So, I told the owner to let this dog have a hunting season under his belt then come back and see me. He has since been to a couple of hunt clubs and it appears to be waning....all by itself. The more intriguing dynamic is that a littermate (his sister) came to me subsequently. We were almost completely done training when out-of-the-blue....she sat down on point. They were both VERY quick learners (SMART!). Hmmm.....???
I tried something with her that worked well but it is too much to share here/now. I may try it on her brother but my guess is, it won't be necessary when I see him again.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:09 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:59 am
No dog of mine and no dog I have seen has sat while on point. The training must have gone wrong for a dog to do that.
Bill T.
Must be a 'merican' thing :lol: and NOT something that is This side of the pond :roll:

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3616
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by slistoe » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:42 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:59 am
No dog of mine and no dog I have seen has sat while on point. The training must have gone wrong for a dog to do that. I think a dog that did sit on point must be expecting what it perceives to be a correction of some kind ?
Bill T.
I have a pup here right now that has not been taught to sit, never been asked/required to sit, never been rewarded for sit. Sit is a default position for this pup. It is a submissive position IMO. She comes to be petted and she sits rather than stand. She tries to jump up and is corrected - she sits. She feels a restriction on the check cord - she sits. She interacts with other dogs in the yard - she sits. Right now she points Robins etc. in the yard for minutes at a time and does not sit when pointing. I am pretty confident though that were I to walk up to her while she was pointing she may fully well look at me and sit down - a reflex whenever an interaction she did not initiate occurs. I fully expect to have to train through this when it comes to steadying on birds.
It is always a training issue, but it is not always an error in training.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:16 am

Novice123 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:30 am
My pup is 5 weeks old now. I am really looking forward to taking ownership (French Brittany). I went to visit the breeder and he didn't understand why I wanted to teach my dog the 'sit' command. I told him that I wanted that command to keep my dog under control when we go in or out of our house or when the dog is let in or out of it's outside kennel. I will also teach heel, come & kennel. In the dog training video that I watch, 'sit' and 'stay' are one and the same command. The breeder was concerned that teaching 'sit' might result in the dog sitting when the dog is broke to wing and shot. However, I have no interest in breaking my dog to wing and shot. I am interested in a hunting dog for upland birds that will point and retrieve. What do you think of teaching 'sit' to a pointing dog? What is the reasoning for teaching a dog to be broke to wing and shot? As a beginning trainer, I don't want to mess up my dog's mind with training to be broke to wing and shot for fear of making a 'blinker' out of it. I am saying this in the context that I have never trained a dog to be steady to wing and shot and am obviously not a professional trainer or even an experienced amateur. With no plans to train the dog to be steady to wing and shot, I see no value in the 'whoa' command and instead was planning to use the 'sit' command. Please help me with the logic or lack of logic of my ideas.

Here in lies the logic . :wink:

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1880
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:56 pm

polmaise wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:09 am
Trekmoor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:59 am
No dog of mine and no dog I have seen has sat while on point. The training must have gone wrong for a dog to do that.
Bill T.
Must be a 'merican' thing :lol: and NOT something that is This side of the pond :roll:
I have been wondering if sitting on point is perhaps a possible result of "The 'merican thing." ??? Could it be the case that because in Britain our dogs are expecting to make the flush and not the handler as seems to be the case in America, our dogs are wanting to be "ready to go" as soon as they are commanded to flush ? ....In other words our dogs definetely don't want to sit ! :lol:

An American dog has the added stress of being required to remain on point, unmoving, as it's owner kicks around in front of it attempting to flush the bird. Perhaps you are giving just a bit too much emphasis to staunchness or rigidity for some dogs to take ?

Something like that must be happening for as I have already said , I have never seen a pointing dog sit while on point in Britain.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:33 pm

Almost possibly/probably, Nah ! definitely "Pressure" Wullie. (imho of dogs and people)
As for Tweety pie stories of Robins , 'Tommy Brechney' and I were walking back to the truck after picking up on a Driven shoot day with Pheasants, suddenly his Young GSP stopped and pointed at a small bush (It was November) with hardly a leaf on it and snow on the ground .
"Look at that he said, that daft bugger is pointing a Robin " , He continued to walk with us and our dogs back to the truck. ..The GSP Followed at heel .
Not a Romantic story ,but a True one ,and that dog went on to be FTCH . ....And never Pointed Robins or tweety birds again ?? :lol:
...
I will concur that I Nor anyone I know or heard of has Ever Seen a Pointing dog Sit on a Point ''This side of the Pond" --- Unless they Trained it Not to be a Pointer :roll:
All that Smoke screen stuff about Thinkers and winkers are just Tinkers ,but lovely to dress up and call it unique .
Any Dog ,No matter the Breed will work out what works "For the Dog" . :wink:
For the OP who wants to teach His dog to Sit , Why Not ? ...It is dead handy when You don't want them to do anything other than 'Sit' . :mrgreen:

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:46 pm

Polmaise, you're not often right but this time, your wrong. :lol:
Last edited by Featherfinder on Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:59 pm

FF . Thank You Sir ,
Any time.
It's an Interesting dilemma I am sure ,especially for those this side of the pond that has Never seen or even heard of a pointing Breed Sitting on Point ,yet it is widespread and common That side of the pond and a few with 'Experience' have witnessed it That side of the pond ,yet Say that the 'Sit command' promotes a Non point and ''Points to the other side of the pond" ? ..perplexed as I am as a Coach in Training people with dogs .
With All the best techniques in training a dog of any breed for anything and all the wondrous accomplishments can 'Sit not actually mean Sit' ? :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyKJeXDoqnw

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:30 pm

Aye Polmaise, I'm with you. It's "when" the act is exercised that might prove...…...interesting, regardless of the GPS co-ordinates.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:53 pm

Featherfinder wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:46 pm
Polmaise, you're not often right but this time, your wrong. :lol:
I would swear you were a Democrat , my friend :lol:
Backpedalling in Scotland has it's own phrase .
'Act daft an ye al get a hurl' 8) :lol:

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1880
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:57 am

I find it really quite odd that some American pointing dog folk are so worried that training a dog to sit might cause it to sit when it should be pointing. All of my pointing dogs were trained to sit to numerous sit commands. They sat to voice, they sat to whistle, they sat to arm or hand signal, they sat to flush of game, they sat to shot and they sat to fall of game......but they did not sit to point ! Not even one of them ever did that. Most British pointer trainers would have about the same list of sit commands and their dogs do not sit while pointing either.

Something contained in the American way of training pointers is causing the sit to point .


Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

User avatar
bustingcover
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:16 am
Location: PNW

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by bustingcover » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:39 am

You can teach your dog sit it’s not going to hurt anything. If your dog does any command other than the one you taught/are teaching then that’s a training error. If your dog woahs when you tell it to come to you is it the woah commands fault?

I’ve seen dogs lay down under too much pressure and the owner never taught them a down command in their life. Turns out dogs are able to perform these functions on their own. The key is to keep your training consistent and not to skip steps.
You like these dogs because you like the truth. And these dogs, if you watch them, they will show you the truth.

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:53 am

Trekmoor, I believe you are correct. But then there were those 2 littermates here that were "different" albeit they are 100% today. You would have had to see them to believe it. 95% of the time it's the trainer/training process. 5% of the time, there is that other element. If you've been around long enough, you will have experienced it. I call them thinkers. I will ask my friend Polmaise for a more appropriate moniker. (Love having you here Polly!)
As I said, some dogs simply don't have the fabric to be what they need to be. I believe I have sent a total of about 5 dogs home here TOTAL simply because - even as young dogs - they weren't capable as entry level bird dogs. Or, as one man put it, "The juice isn't worth the squeeze."
It's most often the genetics. Keep in mind that I cut my teeth working with problem dogs back in the 70's. Regardless of whether they were capable in my eyes, I worked with what they brought me. They made me the trainer I am today but....training is a journey, not a destination. I'm still learning.
Thanks y'all for your part in that!

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:44 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:53 am
(Love having you here Polly!)
2012-2015 ,not much was happening
Love having you here too FF! :)

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1880
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:14 am

In addition to training my own dogs I spent more than 20 years helping other people to train theirs at once per month training classes. Most of those people came from the show and pet world and they had bought their dogs accordingly.

Those dogs pedigrees may have featured show champions galore but field trial champions were conspicuous by their absence ! Some of the dogs lacked "hunt" and some of them lacked "retrieve" but all of them would point no matter what breed of HPR (hunt - point - retriever) they were.

I saw a lot of dogs with very soft temperaments and a few with aggression problems .... dodgy temperaments were fairly common. Poor temperaments or not , the one fault I did not have to deal with was a tendency to sit when on point. I do not know how many dogs I had dealings with over the years but it was certainly more than 2 -300 .... none of them showed an inclination to sit while on point.

This leads me to think you lads are doing something in training that we do not do here. I don't think "nature" makes a sitter.... I think "nurture" all on it's own does.


My own dogs are even taught to do obedience style heelwork and perform the "automatic sit" when I stop walking yet still they do not sit on point. Somehow you lads are making dogs feel "pressure" and that is causing the sit ..... I.M.O. :lol:

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:44 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:14 am
In addition to training my own dogs I spent more than 20 years helping other people to train theirs at once per month training classes. Most of those people came from the show and pet world and they had bought their dogs accordingly.

Those dogs pedigrees may have featured show champions galore but field trial champions were conspicuous by their absence ! Some of the dogs lacked "hunt" and some of them lacked "retrieve" but all of them would point no matter what breed of HPR (hunt - point - retriever) they were.

I saw a lot of dogs with very soft temperaments and a few with aggression problems .... dodgy temperaments were fairly common. Poor temperaments or not , the one fault I did not have to deal with was a tendency to sit when on point. I do not know how many dogs I had dealings with over the years but it was certainly more than 2 -300 .... none of them showed an inclination to sit while on point.

This leads me to think you lads are doing something in training that we do not do here. I don't think "nature" makes a sitter.... I think "nurture" all on it's own does.


My own dogs are even taught to do obedience style heelwork and perform the "automatic sit" when I stop walking yet still they do not sit on point. Somehow you lads are making dogs feel "pressure" and that is causing the sit ..... I.M.O. :lol:

Bill T.
But , Wullie this Can't be True . The origin of disclaimer came from the 'Other side of the pond' ?? :lol:
Featherfinder wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:42 am
Our friends on the other side of the pond put a great deal of emphasis on "sit". There is nothing wrong with it if you don't mind your dog sitting while on point, etc. I personally do not appreciate that. It's just me.
Your 20 + years helping others and near 60 years having dogs of all breeds ,and even Years having Pointing dogs in the Shooting field and Field Trials Is Not enough experience ! You will have to live a wee bit longer ,and I personally will wait until you or I have a Pointing dog that Sits on a Point :wink:
Featherfinder wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:53 am
95% of the time it's the trainer/training process. 5% of the time, there is that other element. If you've been around long enough, you will have experienced it.
....ps . I reckon It's pressure , but then Who am I. Just satin , sorry , auto correct "Sayin" . :lol:

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1880
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:15 pm

Robert, dinnae involve me in yer ain personal wee tulzies…. I can pick my ain fechts ! :lol:
(a translation of the above is available at a very reasonable cost. - - Well , I am a Scot for aw that !) :lol:

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:02 pm

You ARE excluded Wullie , Only because you mention Cost ,reasonable or not is open to interpretation for the vendor .
..
Never believed a word you said anyway. :lol:

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:27 pm

Sitting can come from intentional training to the command or a prompt or from pressure (ambiguity) which prompts the sit-default. I have not read anything here that deviates from this. What I was offering was that the source of the external stress invoked affects dogs in different ways. I can stare at a young dog that has not even been trained to "sit" and it will sit. Wow.....(Zzzzz). Is this training or how they respond to an unknown - a.k.a. stress? The same can be said for pointing. I have seen many a pup/young dog point - I offer non-pointing breeds such as Shih-tsus, Afghans, St. Bernards, Labs, etc. Why? Because they are intimidated by the unknown stimulus- not because they are "pointers"! That is also why I put little-to-no-merit on new dog owners that say, "I think I got a good pup. She pointed right from when she was 8 weeks old!" …..sorry but that's is virtually meaningless. It is has more to do with how they are handling the ambiguity/stress of the unknown.
What ceded the stress in my example? Surely not simply staring?!?
What triggers stress-induced-sitting could be aggressive training practices OR simply a sternful stare. Hmmmm.... how sternful was my stare, you ask? :lol:
Hence, my suggestion that genetics (how they process info, what I called "thinkers") can play a major role in the fabric of some dogs, including how they handle stress - that 5%. Some dog breeds/breedings require a pretty firm approach (for example many of the German breeds that bred for sharpness). Some will just cave if you raise your voice. How much did you raise your voice you ask? :roll:
It's who they are and not always aggressive training practices.
Perhaps my number (5%) is incorrect Polly as I have not done the due diligence there-in. My apologies. Whatever that number....it seems to be growing in the modern dog. This has been my observation.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by polmaise » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:16 pm

0% with pointing dogs Siting on poingt his side of the pond . Is my observation .Unless you know different.Is My point. ..FF.
When I say something that I never meant to say,or said it wrong,or even got carried away in a tangent with the conversations, I always high five.😎

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:39 pm

0% you say Polmaise. I see. So do British pointing dogs sit on the flush/shot? If they do, "we" call this sitting on point.
So, if a dog transitions from pointing/standing to sitting on the flush/shot, it can no longer be standing/pointing, no? Could one also say, "You aspire to have 100% of your dogs sit on point?"

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1880
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:32 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:39 pm
0% you say Polmaise. I see. So do British pointing dogs sit on the flush/shot? If they do, "we" call this sitting on point.
So, if a dog transitions from pointing/standing to sitting on the flush/shot, it can no longer be standing/pointing, no? Could one also say, "You aspire to have 100% of your dogs sit on point?"
There are folk in Britain with pointers/setters, they , especially if they trial their dogs, usually train their dogs to "down" to the flush and shot. This is a "leftover" from a couple of hundred years ago when hunters still had to reload their shotguns like an old fashioned musket and they wanted their dogs to remain in place while they did so in case a grouse or two had not got up with the rest of the covey. This quite often happens near to the start of the shooting season. A completely steady dog might give the hunter a second chance of getting a grouse. Much the same applied to partridges although, in my experience, they usually all get up and fly off at the same time.

I think , at least where the partridges are concerned, the main reason for the dog being required to lie down was to give the hunter a chance to reload his gun before the dog took off hunting again ?

Since the pointers and setters often were not required to retrieve fallen birds , lesser dogs, the gamekeepers retrievers, did that job, the pointers and setters did not have to mark birds down and so it did no harm when the dogs laid down on command. The command often used for this was "Downcharge" --- the dog lay down while the hunter "recharged" his shotgun.

When the "Versatiles" arrived in Britain from the continent, they were expected to retrieve so they were trained to sit to flush and shot in order to allow them to mark birds down better. The sit following a flush and shot is always a taught command though, the dogs do not do this "naturally."

I have yet to see a dog that "transitioned" from flush and shot to sit unless it was taught to do so . Unless they have been thoroughly taught to sit to flush and shot it won't be a sit you have to worry about, it will be a full blooded run -in ! :lol:


Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:42 am

Thanks Trekmoor. Interesting how the pointing breeds evolved or in some cases devolved. I was once told setters "set" or laid down because nets were thrown over them many years ago before the advent of the firearm. This would align itself with your offering.
It wasn't that long ago here when pointers/setters were not retrievers either. (Pointers meaning English and setters meaning English). Traditional quail plantation hunts most often consisted of pointers for finding birds and a Lab or flusher dedicated to retrieving.
As the Scots say, "Why have a dog and bark?" The modern pointer/setter now retrieves as well as most of the pointing breeds, given the opportunity/direction. Both my pointer and my setter LOVE to retrieve from land or water.

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1880
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:34 am

I have never fully trained a setter myself but did, I hope, help others to train theirs. I saw a good number of all the setter breeds working and the best running dog among them all was a Gordon Setter named "Bruce."
His owner was a very experienced pointer and setter field trailer and he was also a very good runner.....he needed to be for Bruce was a hound straight out of heck to control ! His pace was very fast and his hunting ranges we never knew for sure but he would cover an entire hilltop to hilltop and the valley in between when grouse hunting. Even an American enthusiast for "big running dogs" would have liked him !

In Britain his range was just a bit too much when trialing and that dog needed a lot of effort put into reining him in. He eventually became a F.T.Ch. I think but a less capable owner would never have managed to train him.

I have trained a few (English) pointers and I always enjoyed working with them …. I found them to be "naturals" at almost anything including retrieving which surprised me a bit for we do not breed them for retrieving purposes. I took two of them picking- up on pheasant shoots and they did fine except for when the weather was windy, cold and raining. They just don't have the coats for that kind of weather during a Scottish winter.


Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1880
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: training a pointing breed to sit on command

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:40 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:42 am
Thanks Trekmoor. Interesting how the pointing breeds evolved or in some cases devolved. I was once told setters "set" or laid down because nets were thrown over them many years ago before the advent of the firearm. This would align itself with your offering.
Your informant was correct, I think setters sort of evolved from dogs that had a natural inclination to "set," a trait that allowed nets to be thrown over their heads in order to catch partridge ??? I read somewhere that the dogs they evolved from were an early type of spaniel ?

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

Post Reply