Ecollar questions

[Tim]

I have a 9 month old Springer (name's Clyde - from the Waylon song of the same name) and he has been a great dog so far. His first season of hunting/training was a success. Loves guns. Loves birds. Loves water. Loves everything but coming back! So I want him to be steady to shot and flush, and sit in a blind, and retrieve reliably and not chew my shoes by April - I'm getting an Ecollar and I plan to zap the little bugger until he does this. Just kidding!

Sounds like this is about par for the course at his age. So we are working on the checkcord at the moment. This is going well and I am seeing some great improvements. We are doing the basics - sit, heel, here. If he does these 98% of the time he is well on his way to being the dog I want. So to my question:
I am introducing him to the ecollar (I can hear the groans of concern starting up already) and I don't want to blow it. Here is my schedule: wear collar every time he is out of the crate. Begin training with tone. Do these for two months minimum. Start introducing ecollar correction (following a good process) after this warm up period. Start using it to enforce the Here command. He responds very well to physical correction so I don't anticipate any problems with this (I hope).
Where can I find a few good ecollar intro training outlines on line? I like to read as much as I can then boil it all down to suit my situation.
What would be my best option with the tone? How do you folks use the tone? I am leaning towards teaching him to sit on the tone. Is this wise? What are the possible pitfalls? I figure that doing this will ease my future training objectives.

[HUTCH]

I have a e collar with the tone function and I don't use it. The way I intro the dog to the collar is to overlay very light stimulation of the e collar with whatever correction method I had been using (ie pinch collar. choke chain etc.). then the e collar just becomes and extension of the check cord most dogs never show that they know any difference between the pinch of the collar and the nick of the e collar. I hope this helps.good luck.

Brandon

[gonehuntin']

I would most strongly suggest you you buy a book like Dobbs (Tritronics) or one similar and follow that. The old Dobbs book is excellent for a beginning trainer. It's geared to the hunter as well as the trialer.

[snips]

I am not sure what your goal is with the E, but it sounds like you want to use it for handling, listening? If this is it, it should be pretty simple, like said before, overlay it with the CC. Us the Nick mode starting low until you see desired reaction. Lots of praise when she does it right. If you want to overlay the tone for handling (instead of nick) then I would not confuse it with Sit. I am working a Springer now that did not see any birds and starting at 3 is already hunting in range, flushing and I just started shooting birds for her. She has been at it a month now. I am working Hup between birds at this point but will put Hup in after she flushes from here on out. I think desire comes first, then start restrictions. These guys are very smart and willing, just gotta show 'em what you want...

[Lab Man]

I am not the biggest fan of Dobbs method of collar conditioning. I feel they use to much pressure. I feel you can use less pressure and properly collar condition the dog. I suggest you get a dvd Mike Lardy's collar conditioning dvd. Mike Lardy is one of the top Field Trial Trainers in the country. He is collar conditioning a lab in the dvd, but you can still apply the same teqnique to a Springer. You can see this dvd at www.coonriverkennels.com Good luck.

[kninebirddog]

Rick Smiths methods of training then over lay of the e collar on the lightest levels a dog will repsond to have proven extremely successful.

Be sure you have the dog knowing what the command is with a command lead or leash etc then over lay with commmand and then a known stimulation to follow through

the e collar when used properly will hardly ever be used at all...but it is only an extension of commands KNOWN

one thing which people may not pick up on...when you walking a dog or excersising...if your letting the dog do what he wants at the end this will lead to some of your issues when he is off the lead as your telling him even though he is leashed you can do what you want sniifing here pulling there more so with your dogs which will take the lead if you don't

[gonehuntin']

I am not the biggest fan of Dobbs method of collar conditioning. I feel they use to much pressure. I feel you can use less pressure and properly collar condition the dog. I suggest you get a dvd Mike Lardy's collar conditioning dvd. Mike Lardy is one of the top Field Trial Trainers in the country. He is collar conditioning a lab in the dvd, but you can still apply the same teqnique to a Springer. You can see this dvd at www.coonriverkennels.com Good luck.

That's an interesting quote lab man. I've always felt if there was anyone that was light on dogs, it was Dobbs. Now, when he worked with Rex, that was not the case, but then that was part of the reason he left. He basically invented, along with tritronics, the variable intensity method of training dogs back in the early 80's. He will tell you or show you on his tapes and in the book to only use as much voltage as makes the dog slightly twitch. Mike is geared toward the field trial dog and his tapes and dvd's don't fit the "typical" hunter as well as the Dobbs method does. Mike will flat get after a dog too. I'm interested in why you feel that way.

[snips]

Don't they do alot of avoidance training? Start low and put up the pressure until compliance? I have not seen the video but been to simular seminars with same method. Dont they use a collar for obedience, FF, and about everything trained?

[gonehuntin']

Don't they do alot of avoidance training? Start low and put up the pressure until compliance? I have not seen the video but been to simular seminars with same method. Dont they use a collar for obedience, FF, and about everything trained?

They do. Their dogs are totally collar conditioned, but so are Mike's. They do not build the pressure until compliance unless the dog totally refuses the command. They keep it at the same low pressure until the dog complies. When you watch a "Perfection" video, he is doing the same thing but the basic program is different. I believe Dobbs program is probably the most complete program out there, but you're talking to an old trainer here that believes in that type of program.

[AHGSP]

Tim,

You may find this link helpful. I too am not a big fan of Dobbs, but it is really up to you to take what you can from it and trash what you don't want to use.

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/flushing/index.html

PS. When I say I am not a big fan, I only work with Pointing Breeds and I feel there are better methods for them, for Flushers.... I haven't a clue.

[PAHunter]

kninebirddog


Are you on Rick Smith's payroll?

[Tim]

Just wanted to thank you guys for your help. It's going to be a long trip and it's good to have people who know what they are doing along to help out. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions in the near future.

[kninebirddog]

lol I wish

[Lab Man]

I am not saying Mike will not get after a dog. I am a believer that you should use the least amount of pressure to get the job done. I feel Dobbs promotes to much constant burn in his program. Dobb's program does work, but I just feel there are better methods out there. Jon Hann has a pretty good collar conditioning program for pointing dog.

[gonehuntin']

I am not saying Mike will not get after a dog. I am a believer that you should use the least amount of pressure to get the job done. I feel Dobbs promotes to much constant burn in his program. Dobb's program does work, but I just feel there are better methods out there. Jon Hann has a pretty good collar conditioning program for pointing dog.

Labman, When I compare the two, I see no difference. Hahn's program IS Dobbs. He also holds the button down until compliance. Both use the lowest setting they can and get a reaction from the dogs. To me, they're the same in the field, but Dobbs is more thorough. Just my thoughts.

[snips]

There are many things people promoting a Ecollar co will train with the use of the collar, this includes many trainers that are backed by Ecollar companies to make videos)... With birddogs I do not like overuse of the collar, birddogs are not Labs and very different in what they are trained for and how they take corrections... I do not use the ecollar for basic obedience, including Whoa, Sit, Heel, or even FF.... I do like it's use for Come which follows over in the field on handling. When I initiate it into any birdwork it is after a bird is in the air. It is a back up for after the dog is already taught not to chase. I train for a dog to be happy in what they are learning afield, if too much pressure is applyed or it starts to not be fun it will show up in a dogs performance, this includes a dogs style, blinking birds, or if it is just more than they can take, they will just go to the kennel or truck. Each dog is different in how they respond to electricity, some cannot take the slightest bit of it while others seem like they don't know it is there, collar conditioning is how you tell the sensitivity of your dog and is a very important part of starting them. As the ecollar can be a great training tool it is the most abused also. I tell everyone if their is any question as to whether you need a correction, then don't. If their is NO question then a correction is needed. This is for those people starting out with their "new" shock collar to give a reasonble perspective of it's overall use, what they need it for or don't need it for. Just because you see it on a video does not mean you have to train with it for everything.......

[Tim]

WOW looks like I set off a bit of a rant there. I appreciate everyone's input on the original question. You have all definitely confirmed my belief that the ONLY way is to check out all of the programs you can and make a good level headed assessment on what will work for you and your dog.
I'll tell you the first thing that I did when I got my collar was try it on myself. I made it up to 4 before I decided that was enough for me. If I ever find myself even considering going past 4 with Clyde I guess I will have to man up and give it a try on myself. After trying it, I sincerely doubt that I will. I suggest this to anyone who is considering an ecollar - really puts it into perspective.
Tim

[snips]

Sorry, did not mean to rant. I guess I just think there are alot of people here seeking about the same advice and needed a little perspective on starting with ecollars.

[Wagonmaster]

I agree pretty much with snips.

A few years ago TT came out with some video tapes and a theory that a dog could be trained with low level stimulation as long as in is not in compliance with a command, the stimulation to stop when the dog complies. The particular tape was one I saw where dogs were being taught "Whoa" by being put on a place board, a 2' x 4' piece of plywood elevated off the ground a little. If the dog stepped off, it was to receive a low level of stimulation until it was back on the board.

I tried this, at the lowest level of stimulation that would get a reaction of any kind from the dog, and found that it just did not work. Maybe it is my own training method, or my dogs, but they were just unhappy with the fairly long duration low level shock.

I still do not use the collar at a very high level, but the concept of making one place hot and another not, or of long duration stimulation, seemed to me to bring style down too much. I tend to use the collar on nick mode more than anything else, and use it to correct only when I know the dog knows what it is supposed to be doing. Works very good for that.

[gonehuntin']

I'll tell you the first thing that I did when I got my collar was try it on myself. I made it up to 4 before I decided that was enough for me. If I ever find myself even considering going past 4 with Clyde I guess I will have to man up and give it a try on myself. After trying it, I sincerely doubt that I will. I suggest this to anyone who is considering an ecollar - really puts it into perspective.
Tim

Tim, a very intelligent thing to do and I agree with you completely. Trust me when I say, you'd have never done that with the old a-70's!

[Wagonmaster]

Actually, that is the one I tried out. The old A1-80 with the metal antenna. Same as the 70 but with a tone in addition to the shock. Was interesting. Not too bad.

[gonehuntin']

Wagonmaster, you'll remember, or maybe not if you didn't use them a lot, that the old 70's and 80's gave an audible buzz when you held down the button and put it too your ear. Easier than putting a tester on them and back in those days there were no lights on them to show they were working. Anyhow, it was a hot day on the prairies and were were running multiple marks with retrievers. Sweat was pouring from me. I grabbed a collar off the bumper of the dog truck and buzzed it alongside my ear on the way to get a dog out of the box. The points touched the hair of my sideburn and it arced across. Never done that since. No wonder dogs used to listen when they were nailed with a 70 or 80.

[Tim]

Just an apology to snips - meant that I sent everyone off on a rant - not just your response. Which incidentally I thought was very well thought out and obviously comes from experience. Hope I didn't offend.
Cheers
Tim

[Wagonmaster]

They are said to be painful when they arc, even on a dog. We try to avoid that. Yes, mine buzzed before the shock if you hit the red button. Good and loud.