Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

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mykp13
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Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

Post by mykp13 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:54 am

Greetings All,

Im looking for feed back on this issue. Took me nigh on a decade to acquire my first bird dog. I purchased a EB "French Brittany" from Clint LaFary at Sur Le Delevan. I am absolutely happy with my pup. He's 6 months old today and is becoming a phenomenal companion. I have started him on birds and introduced him to the gun.

My question for you all is about the point of contact for the whoa post. I am using the Smith Method and purchased all their DVD's. I also read Delmar's book. Delmar used a pinch collar for the Whoa Post. Now the Smiths are advocating the use of a half hitch around the flank. I've read several articles about how effective the flank point of contact is. However, I dont like the idea of needing two e-collars or the dog hunting with a collar around his flank. Looks uncomfortable and unnatural. Anyone have any insight. i am going to begin working the whoa post but dont want to change the POC half way through the process.

Thanks,
Mike
A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle. ~George William Curtis

jstevens
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Re: Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

Post by jstevens » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:56 pm

My thinking is that you want to differentiate between the two, stim on the flank reinforces whoa. It likely creates less confusion.

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DonF
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Re: Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

Post by DonF » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:27 pm

I do Delmar's version from the book. It's never failed me. Doesn't get much better than that. When the dog is ready to leave the whoa post, I check cord it around and try to catch the CC on stakes I drive in the ground, catch's the dog and stops it and I immediately flip the cc off the stake and have it to bump the dog if necessary. i'm certain the hitch around the waist works and so does the flank collar but why stop doing something that works? I think the reason people use the half hitch or the flank collar is because that's the way they learned or actually think it's better. But stop and look around, there's a number of different ways of doing it and it seem's they all work in some fashion!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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bamanicksbd
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Re: Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

Post by bamanicksbd » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:36 pm

I also use the hunt smith method. The point of contact on the flank is solely for whoa which i think causes less confusion early on. Once pup "gets it" then it all transfers to the neck just as a reminder. Plus if pup forgets which they all do sometimes. You can quickly go to hslf hitch on flank or e collar back on flank and deal solely with whoa not messing with anything else. I have done it both ways. Also started with Delmar Smiths book and learned to flip a bowline knot. Then went to one of Rick Smiths seminars and switched to the flank. I look at it like listening to a dr who has done hundreds or thousands of surgeries or lawyer who has tried lots of cases etc. The Smith family has trained more bird dogs than most of us will ever see. There may be other ways that also work but i dont think its possible to go wrong following the Hunt Smith methods. Image

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birddogger2
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Re: Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:56 pm

In a training scenario, I can see the value of doing whoa work on the flank. It is accomplished with much lower stim levels and, I believe the dog does not have the same negative reaction to flank stim as it can have with neck stim around birds.

I honestly do not know why that is so, but it sure seems to be, in my limited experience. I do not use a whoa post, but my last couple of dogs have been steadied with the e-collar on the flank and it went very well, with VERY low stim being required.

My point of contact for obedience drills is the neck, up close to the ears. When I am hunting, the collar is on the neck, because...It ain't training no mo'. The dog already knows what it is supposed to do.
If the dog does not come when called in the field, it is an obedience lapse. if the dog does no stop and stand when it scents or sees a bird...it is an obedience failure.
Failure in the field is not a training failure, because the dog already knows very well what it is supposed to do...but rather an obedience failure so a neck stim is the appropriate correction IMO.

Just my way of doing it.

RayG

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AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:10 pm

bamanicksbd wrote:I also use the hunt smith method. The point of contact on the flank is solely for whoa which i think causes less confusion early on. Once pup "gets it" then it all transfers to the neck just as a reminder. Plus if pup forgets which they all do sometimes. You can quickly go to hslf hitch on flank or e collar back on flank and deal solely with whoa not messing with anything else. I have done it both ways. Also started with Delmar Smiths book and learned to flip a bowline knot. Then went to one of Rick Smiths seminars and switched to the flank. I look at it like listening to a dr who has done hundreds or thousands of surgeries or lawyer who has tried lots of cases etc. The Smith family has trained more bird dogs than most of us will ever see. There may be other ways that also work but i dont think its possible to go wrong following the Hunt Smith methods. Image

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That's the key, overlay the commands and eventually transfer to the neck.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:47 pm

I'm not a believer in the collar on the flank. I begin by teaching whoa with a pinch collar from the heel position. Once the dog is through it's obedience, I transfer it to the ecollar. The dog will live it's whole life with a collar on it's neck. No need for the flank collar IMO.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Featherfinder
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Re: Whoa Post-Neck vs Flank

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:23 pm

I have used the flank collar for many years with wonderful success. As with all e-collar applications, you need to know if/when/how much. If you don't, it hardly matters what you use or where/how it is deployed.
As already stated, the flank e-collar FOLLOWS the fundamental non-e-collar flank training. The dog needs to understand the expectation clearly.
Furthermore, once the dog has completed the process, you do NOT run it with a flank collar on because it dovetails with other aspects of developing steadiness around birds. There is no ensuing need for it....normally.

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