hunting too fast

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BuckeyeSteve
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hunting too fast

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:24 am

I'm not entirely sure what my situation is here.....but I have some observations and and suspicions. I'm looking for some thoughts/guidance.

My 2 Y/O has done great in training on quail and chuckar, but he's been in a situation where hunting like a trial dog is okay. He's got a good nose and hunts far and fast, he rarely ever misses a known bird. He'll pull up from a hard run down a fence row and freeze on a hard point and wait for me to get to him. This has been consistent across a ton of planted of birds that tend to sit tight until we force flush them. I have had an issue that Rosco hunts too fast on freed birds that act closer to wild, that he hunts too fast and they flush before he pics them up, and with runners he re-sets or breaks point to reset without a command to do so (which we've never worked on...I'm starting to tell him "easy" to try to get him to re-set a point if we can't find a holding bird or if we see the bird running). He hunts REALLY fast, but in training it seems to generally work fine. That's been training....

Now that it's hunting season, I'm not entirely sure how to interpret what I'm seeing, or what to do.

We went on a week trip to U.P. MI and he did his standard run at 20MPH (which feels like 80) through the woods and immediately tried to hunt at 300 yards, flushing countless birds that we never saw. He didn't point a bird for days, just ran like a maniac. Over the course of the week I ranged him in and eventually got him hunting at 50-80 (which was still a little further than I'd like), and he did point some birds but due to speed flushed a lot more.
Now, back in PA hunting pheasants.... we're having much of the same. He's hunting far and fast (I'm normally keeping him in the 70-110 range, but if I let him go he'll go as far as I let him...200, 300, 400...). I'm watching pheasants flush from across fields.

Here's what I don't know....
These pheasants are runners. I'm guessing that the flushes are because he finds a bird, points briefly, and it runs so he quickly resets/follows. After some amount of that game the bird is flushing. I don't know that the reset is bad (in some cases), especially if he's circling not following. I think these birds will run forever given the chance. I can't see him, so I'm not positive what's happening, but in the end my situation is that he's had a great point, but now I'm almost never flushing a bird myself. Whether he's at 20 yards in a thicket, or 150 yards, birds are flushing. I don't know if he's ever pointing, but I'm guessing he is. I also worry that he's not pointing like he used to because between the grouse flushing all over the place in MI and the pheasant running in PA, he could just be accepting that these birds are going to leave his area so he's just chasing. When he's in sight of me, I'm still seeing some great points....but when he's not in sight and I see birds flushing I'm just guessing as to what's happening.

I THINK what would make this whole experience better...what would fit my hunting.... would be for him to go from full sprint hunting to mosey close hunting. Then, when he finds a bird I'm right there to flush, and his wild flushes would go away. I have no idea how to accomplish this. I can range him in with his e-collar by continuously telling him "hunt close" and paging/vibrating/zapping him when he goes outside of 30 yards....but this seems difficult since it's not his nature to hunt close. Also, though I think I could force him to hunt closer, I have no clue how to get him to slow down. He'd run go 20mph still, it would just be closer to me at 20mph. I'd like him to move 5mph.

Any thoughts or advice on how I can accomplish this, or what I should do (if something different than I'm thinking).

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by DonF » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:22 am

For a dog handling birds right, 200 to 300 yds is not really a bad thing. At my age I'm where I like a dog in that close. Problem being getting to the dog. Most trialers like a dog way out there and pretty much un-seen till they find the dog on a bird. I believe that dogs like that flush far more birds than the owner thinks. Also dogs that take that long to get to often have birds move out on the dog and they end up thinking they got a super dog with a 100yd nose. Some of those big runner's your simply not gonna slow down, it's been bred in to long and it's what they do! Other's naturally work closer, 250yds or so is not unreasonable in my view. Those that do can be held in by planting a lot of birds in a training field. Dog barely get's going and runs into a bird, slows then down. You could try that with your dog. If it's just a 300 yd dog, it should work. Speed< don't worry about speed. I like to watch a fast dog. But it does need to learn some caution. I use remote release traps and make sure I know exactly where the bird is and where the wind is. Dog get's within about 10yds of the bird, scent cone or not, I pop the bird and go on. Dog cross's into the scent cone I pop the bird not giving the dog a chance to point. Four or five like that and the dog will point before you can pop the bird! Speed will not stop it from pointing. had a shorthair years ago the about the third bird she came in on like that she hit the bird so hard she rolled completely and came up on point! My Stormy today went by one like that one time and he turned in mid air and slid backward when he landed about a foot. Speed does that along with the dog reacting properly. Another thing speed can do is hold a bird if the dog does actually get a bit to close, speed and cover. A dog coming in to slow and to close will bump more birds than it point's. Wild birds will not give you the liberty the you allow with training birds! I always recommend using remote traps and pigeons for training. And always say that you need to become the bird, not the trainer! A wild bird will not allow your dog anywhere the garbage that you will for the sake of training. Be the bird!
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Makintrax73 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:18 am

I feel for you. My setter is much the same. Never really solved the problem, but with age (He'll be 6 shortly) he has improved.

One thing I did, and I doubt I'll get a lot of support for the idea on this forum (guys here seem to like big runners) was to hammer down on range control. i also hunt grouse and pheasants. I see zero benefit to a dog more than 100 yards out in the grouse woods no matter how good the dog, and with respect to pheasants I've simply had to admit to myself after much reflection that my dog doesn't have what it takes to hunt pheasants at distance. He holds point as long as you please until the bird moves off then its about 50/50 on a bumped bird.

The other thing I did is take him to a trainer for a more thorough whoa breaking. My thought being if I see him point and start moving in on a runner I will stop him on a whoa until i move into shooting range.

Good luck, I'll be interested to see what everyone has to say on this one.

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:42 pm

You need to find out if the dog is being "honest" when it is out there. That is the big question.

There are lots of dogs that are dead honest when they are close in, but are blackhearted devils when out away from sight, that will bust and chase...because they can.

The easiest way to find out is to put a tracking collar(I have a garmin) on the dog and keep an eye on it when the dog is out at a distance. If the dog points, the tracker will send a signal that the dog is pointing. If the dog points and then moves, the tracker will indicate that, and you know what you need to work on.

If the dog is busting, or even self-relocating...you need to fix that. The beauty of the modern trackers is that you CAN know what the dog is doing, even though you cannot see them. The conventional wisdom is that you should not shock a dog you cannot see...because you do not know what they are doing. With the tracker unit...you can have very good idea what the dog is doing, even if you cannot see them.

If you suspect self-relocation, you can go back to the training bench and insist that the dog stand and not move...until commanded to, by you or physically released. Initially, I would suggest that you insist on the dog standing until physically cued by you to move.

Incidentally, you CAN train the dog to hunt close and hunt carefully. I train my dogs to "hunt dead" on command and to hunt close. If they do not, they get corrected and made to comply. If the dog is genetically a big runner, this may take a while and you may take some of the drive and desire out of the dog in the process...at least temporarily. I start with mine early, and it still ain't easy because they are bred to run into the next zip code.

However, the dog has to learn to hunt the way YOU want it to in different circumstances. In open country with scarce birds, it is marvelous for the dog to be able to open up and rim the fields. But when in cover...the dog has to understand that it needs to suck it in and hunt close ad thoroughly. In a put and take stocked pheasant scenario, again the dog has to hunt to the gun. If the bird runs...the dog has to learn that putting that ditch parrot in the air is YOUR job...not his. Patience, persistence and insistence.

Good luck.

RayG

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Sharon » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:19 pm

What's wrong with self relocation if the bird is moving?
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:40 pm

Sharon wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:19 pm
What's wrong with self relocation if the bird is moving?
Absolutely nothing...as long as the dog does not bump the bird. A skillful relocation which results in a pinned bird is a thing of beauty and the hallmark of a first rate gundog.

What the OP seems to be saying is that the self relocation may well have progressed to a flash point and bump...which needs to stop. Once the dog is over the hill broke and honest on its birds, I would be pleased as punch to allow it to do whatever it needed to do.

BUT the dog needs to earn the right to do what it needs to do and part of that is to be honest first.

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Sharon » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:02 pm

Got it! :) Thanks.
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by BuckeyeSteve » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:53 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:42 pm
You need to find out if the dog is being "honest" when it is out there. That is the big question.

There are lots of dogs that are dead honest when they are close in, but are blackhearted devils when out away from sight, that will bust and chase...because they can.

The easiest way to find out is to put a tracking collar(I have a garmin) on the dog and keep an eye on it when the dog is out at a distance. If the dog points, the tracker will send a signal that the dog is pointing. If the dog points and then moves, the tracker will indicate that, and you know what you need to work on.

If the dog is busting, or even self-relocating...you need to fix that. The beauty of the modern trackers is that you CAN know what the dog is doing, even though you cannot see them. The conventional wisdom is that you should not shock a dog you cannot see...because you do not know what they are doing. With the tracker unit...you can have very good idea what the dog is doing, even if you cannot see them.

If you suspect self-relocation, you can go back to the training bench and insist that the dog stand and not move...until commanded to, by you or physically released. Initially, I would suggest that you insist on the dog standing until physically cued by you to move.

Incidentally, you CAN train the dog to hunt close and hunt carefully. I train my dogs to "hunt dead" on command and to hunt close. If they do not, they get corrected and made to comply. If the dog is genetically a big runner, this may take a while and you may take some of the drive and desire out of the dog in the process...at least temporarily. I start with mine early, and it still ain't easy because they are bred to run into the next zip code.

However, the dog has to learn to hunt the way YOU want it to in different circumstances. In open country with scarce birds, it is marvelous for the dog to be able to open up and rim the fields. But when in cover...the dog has to understand that it needs to suck it in and hunt close ad thoroughly. In a put and take stocked pheasant scenario, again the dog has to hunt to the gun. If the bird runs...the dog has to learn that putting that ditch parrot in the air is YOUR job...not his. Patience, persistence and insistence.

Good luck.

RayG
Thanks Ray.... I do have a 550 Pro on him so I can theoretically see points, and I also run a Northwoods long range bell. In close, my bell tells me what's happening a lot faster than the GPS, but neither one really tells me for sure (I'm new to the GPS...so I don't claim to use it as proficiently as someone with more experience). I see a lot of what seems to be 10 second stopping and starting. I absolutely question the "honesty" as you put it. I hate to zap him on this, because he could be pooping, sniffing something unrelated, drinking from a creek, etc....but otherwise I don't know what to do about it. Without question though, I see birds flushing 150 yards away from me when I let him range out. I also agree with your last point, that it would be great if I could get him to hunt close in cover (which we hunt a lot of, grouse and pheasant both), and range in the corn fields....
I guess I'll work on bringing him in to work closer, live with the speed, and go from there. I do have a launcher, so I can start doing some work at home again on steadying. I also know I'm breaking some cardinal rules in shooting some birds that I don't flush, and I should probably stop that....

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by bonasa » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:27 pm

Try roading the dog for a bit before the hunt or free running where there are no birds to blow off some steam, younger dogs generally settle into the groove after the first half hour to an hour of hunt.

50-80 yards is too far still? Break him this spring/summer and next year will be fine. I like dogs to be in the pocket at 150-225 yards in the grouse woods that is my ideal range. He is probably self relocating on the wild birds due to being ran on pheasants quite a bit, I have seen that with many dogs.

I'd continue to hunt this year and kill as many birds that he points as possible. Spring get yourself some launchers and pigeons, before the dog points and the slightest inciling of scenting the bird you must pop it. Its an easy concept to break a dog but hard to explain, although following a detailed training program does take the edge off. A dog that stops to flush is a dog willing to participate and buy into the training.

Biggest piece of advice I can give is quit a winner. Stinks if you travel 2 hours to the grouse woods and then the dog points and holds a bird for you to flush in the first 5 min, believe me it will go a long way with the dog if you heel him out of there after that and put him up for a few days.

I would never zap a dog I cannot see or ascertain for sure what he was doing. However if he points , you hear the bell or the garmin says hes moving then you hear a flush immediately after. I think you can deduce that he put that bird up and failed to stop to flush, might need a little encouragement IF he knows that a shock to the neck or belly means STOP/WHOA. A shock without a command associated could lead to blinking birds, belly is best around birds, the whoa post segues nicely into this.

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:34 am

I'm not really sure I should be contributing to this thread, pointing dog work in Britain does differ a bit from that done in America. However just in case this may help I'll post it in anyway.

My first ever pointing dog was a Brittany and she was the result of a mating between an American brit and a French one. I think the American half of her must have been from some very "hot" and hard running dogs for she was fast and she hunted wide.....so much so that she caused a few ripples in the field trial world here.

I trained her and worked her on grouse up on the moors and hills and also on grey partridge on big stubble fields or on wild grass fields. Her speed and her range caused no problems on that sort of ground …..so I "let her rip!"

Then I decided to enter her for a field trial held on pheasants that was to take place among mixed woodlands. I wasn't worried about this as she'd already had a few points on pheasants out on more open ground .

The judges told me to cast her off and I did then walked through the woods slowly to enable her to keep contact with me as she usually did. I rarely ever saw her and neither did the judges but she seemed to quartering the woods just fine so I left her to get on with it.

The judges told me to call her back in and when I did they chucked us out of the trial. They said they'd loved watching her "go" but that she was likes Haile's Comet ….you only see it once in every 70 -80 years as it whizzes past ! :roll:

I took the hint and set about retraining her to quarter far more closely in woodland situations. I don't use e - collars so I did the other thing, I used pheasants, considerable numbers of pheasants, to keep her in close until she had learned that in woodlands, birds could be found fairly near to me.

I am aware these sort of pheasant numbers may not be possible in America but in Britain , if you are friendly with a few gamekeepers, it is often is possible to work woodlands with high densities of pheasants.
It worked very well with my brittany. She won a couple of pheasant trials the following season.

Perhaps you could arrange to have a few pheasants placed out in cages in various bits of woodland ? Enough to give your dog the idea that it need not run 200 yards out in order to find game ?

I'd be interested to know if your dog would remain on point to a caged bird or if it would point then creep in ?

Bill T.
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:25 am

Steve -

Bill T gives an interesting scenario which may well answer your question about honesty in a definitive manner. If the dog is on top of a caged bird in open cover...you know what happened. I strongly suspect your dog is taking liberties, but I respect your desire to proceed with caution and be sure.

It will also offer a "hands on" opportunity to correct the dog. I would definitely set something like that up. Marvelous idea.

The other concept he communicated... of you being where the birds are and where the fun is at, is also a vital lesson for your dog to learn. once the dog learns YOU are where the fun is at, it will WANT to be with you.

If you could get into a woodcock migration flight that would be awesome. Bringing your dog into a place where it will have literally dozens of bird contacts right in front of you will burn that experience into the dog's memory.

You could also simulate your very own bird rich environment by carrying a bag of pigeons and tossing one to the ground, so it flushes, or slipping it out and letting it go from behind your back...with the dog watching, of course.

As far as keeping the dog close, there are lots of ways to skin that cat. Since you have a tracker on the dog one of the things you can do is to literally turn and walk in the opposite direction when the dog ranges out too far. I would call the dog, ONCE, and then turn. I suggest you do it silently to "encourage" the dog to pay attention to where you are and where you are heading. You might even walk behind a tree or blowdown and hide, just like you would with a puppy.

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by DonF » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:07 am

A Garmin doesn't tell if a dog is pointing. It indicate's if the dog is stopped, nothing more. Sometime's when the dog is stopped it will indicate "tree'd"! Your dog decide's to lay down and take a nap to the Garmin the dog is not moving so it indicates pointing and often tree'd. How long the point or tree'd show up could indicate what the dog might be doing, might! For myself I like a dog that will relocate on it's own, that is good dog work. Only problem come in if the dog pressure's the bird to much.Training aid's are aid's, nothing more!
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Makintrax73 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:27 am

DonF wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:07 am
A Garmin doesn't tell if a dog is pointing. It indicate's if the dog is stopped, nothing more. Sometime's when the dog is stopped it will indicate "tree'd"! Your dog decide's to lay down and take a nap to the Garmin the dog is not moving so it indicates pointing and often tree'd. How long the point or tree'd show up could indicate what the dog might be doing, might! For myself I like a dog that will relocate on it's own, that is good dog work. Only problem come in if the dog pressure's the bird to much.Training aid's are aid's, nothing more!

The other problem is based on refresh rate if the dog points only for a couple seconds the Garmin never indicates point. I always set mine to 2.5 second refresh, but it appears that the dog has to be in the same location for at least 2 refresh cycles before it indicates a stoped dog. A dog can do a lot of thinking for himself in 5 seconds with a bird in front of him.

The opposite can also be true. Dog stops when he hits the scent cone, but the bird decides to leave before point is indicated. Dog did it right, but you might assume he bumped a bird.

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by mask » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:47 pm

A dog probably can't run to fast, they can outrun their nose. All dogs scenting ability is not equal some just have a lot better noses than others. A dog with less than an average nose will likely bump more birds than a dog with an excellent nose. If a dog is trained to be steady on birds and does so a high majority of the time all the other stuff doesn't mean much. Hacking and shocking trying to keep a dog close probably won't help much when it comes to handling wild birds. You may be wise to take all the chase out of this dog. Don has some good ideas on that subject.

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by shags » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:29 pm

I betcha you really know what your dog is doing...he's pushing up birds. He isn't honest, he's cheating. He wasn't flushing grouse because of speed, he wasn't bothering to to stop and point. Pheasants run, but once the pressure's off? Mistakes happen, birds pop because maybe the dog came in with the wind or some such reason, but many flushes like you've experienced means purposeful not mistakes.

Most dogs can't be allowed to run amok then by some magic become honest steady pointers.

I think you need to go back to training mode. Don't allow the dog to move after he establishes point...only when you release him. You're able to get physically close to the dog, you control the situation and the renegade dog, and the dog can find and repoint the phez while you're (probably) in gun range. When you're training, don't hurry to flush, take your time and make him stand there while you munch a Snickers bar and correct him when he moves.

I really like those fast snappy Brittanies. What's more fun than watching all that animation suddenly just snap into a solid motionless point? Count your blessings and enjoy that stuff! There will come a day when you will be sad that your old guy can't move like he used to, and wish to heaven that you could turn back the clock.

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by polmaise » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:41 pm

Trekmoor wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:34 am

I'd be interested to know if your dog would remain on point to a caged bird or if it would point then creep in ?

Bill T.
Would the caged bird have human scent on it ?, which , if I remember the OP had started with planted birds and the wheels fell off on wild ones ?

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by DonF » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:24 pm

I don't believe that having human scent on a bird your training with matter's one bit. It's the bird the dog want's and it's scent is also there and probably stronger. I've never had a dog leave a wild bird because there was no human scent on it. Go rub a sage brush real well and see if your dog will point it, mine won't! I do use foot traps i make myself and only use pigeons in them. Like a small tunnel with wood on each end and the rest 1/2" hardware cloth. I found to use them I need to block the top with tape or the birds tip them themselves. When the dog's are on them, if they move in and bump the trap, the bird goes nuts and between the two the bird fly's off and the dog has a mouthful of wire trap.
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by polmaise » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:54 am

I was merely asking if the Caged bird would have human scent on it . Which would and obviously does have a bearing in the case/situation with the OP's dilemma as he stated "Planted a Ton of birds" .

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by gundogguy » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:56 am

DonF wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:24 pm
I don't believe that having human scent on a bird your training with matter's one bit. It's the bird the dog want's and it's scent is also there and probably stronger. I've never had a dog leave a wild bird because there was no human scent on it. Go rub a sage brush real well and see if your dog will point it, mine won't! I do use foot traps i make myself and only use pigeons in them. Like a small tunnel with wood on each end and the rest 1/2" hardware cloth. I found to use them I need to block the top with tape or the birds tip them themselves. When the dog's are on them, if they move in and bump the trap, the bird goes nuts and between the two the bird fly's off and the dog has a mouthful of wire trap.
+1 Same goes for planted birds that are not in a trap or launcher.


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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:12 am

Mmmmmm ??? I'm not at all sure on the question of human scent on caged birds. I've had one dog, a Brittany, that despised smelling human hand scent on a caged bird. She would point the bird but then almost immediately charge the cage, jump on top of it, carefully position herself …..and then pee all over the poor bird - - - - total contempt !

When I tried dizzying birds (pigeons) and planting them for her to find, she'd flash point and then at once move in for an easy catch ! Yet that same bitch would point any kind of wild game bird and hold the point....unless the bird ran from the point in which case she would begin to do a very slow track on it which I never taught her to do. She seemed to be aware that if she gave me enough time to catch up with her ,the chances of her getting a retrieve were much greater...….that's what I call a hunting dog.

She taught me that wild birds make very good training aides , for me, they are far, far better than pigeons.

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by crackerd » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:10 am

Sharon wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:19 pm
What's wrong with self relocation if the bird is moving?
So long as it stops short of the 49th parallel on the relocation, Sharon, probably good to go. :wink:

Only came onto this thread because I thought Bill (Trekmoor) was aboard with recommending the best UP (and North Woods) grouse dog out there, the spinone Italiano.

Now there's a dog that hunts at 5 mph and feels like 2 mph to your delight - 'cause they don't miss a whole h*lluva lot of birds.

MG

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by DonF » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:01 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:12 am
Mmmmmm ??? I'm not at all sure on the question of human scent on caged birds. I've had one dog, a Brittany, that despised smelling human hand scent on a caged bird. She would point the bird but then almost immediately charge the cage, jump on top of it, carefully position herself …..and then pee all over the poor bird - - - - total contempt !

When I tried dizzying birds (pigeons) and planting them for her to find, she'd flash point and then at once move in for an easy catch ! Yet that same bitch would point any kind of wild game bird and hold the point....unless the bird ran from the point in which case she would begin to do a very slow track on it which I never taught her to do. She seemed to be aware that if she gave me enough time to catch up with her ,the chances of her getting a retrieve were much greater...….that's what I call a hunting dog.

She taught me that wild birds make very good training aides , for me, they are far, far better than pigeons.

Bill T.
I strongly suspect what you did was teach the dog the difference between a training bird and a wild bird.
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by polmaise » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:38 am

DonF wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:01 am

I strongly suspect what you did was teach the dog the difference between a training bird and a wild bird.
Probably .

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by crackerd » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:18 pm

polmaise wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:38 am
DonF wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:01 am

I strongly suspect what (Bill T.) did was teach the dog the difference between a training bird and a wild bird.
Probably.
Robt., I heard on the QT that Our Wullie has got some training capercaillie available, "Scottish endangered species" status notwithstanding!

MG

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by polmaise » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:28 pm

It would be rude to quote what has been said by others regarding 'Planted birds' and human scent .
...
Least Not, ..Hunting Fast'?? ..Or as we Heathens sitting in a cave watching a spider ...call it "Stravaiging" .

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by crackerd » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:15 pm

polmaise wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:28 pm
It would be rude to quote what has been said by others regarding 'Planted birds' and human scent .
...
Least Not, ..Hunting Fast'?? ..Or as we Heathens sitting in a cave watching a spider ...call it "Stravaiging" .
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Wait a minute, are you talking planted (and extinct) birds as in "heath hens" or planted corpses in Hades, as in "heathens?" If the former, we may have to call on some of y'all cave dwellers for revivifying the species with caper DNA https://reviverestore.org/projects/heath-hen-project/

MG

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by polmaise » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:34 pm

Pretty sure , "Stravaiging" in my language is 'doing it's own thing without knowing where it is going, or care for what sent it or gave it in the first place,as long as it is going somewhere, even if it stops for a while to check out the scenery' .......some call this "Hunting" ? . I'm of a different opinion . Call me stupid or old fashioned , my Grandad only gave me 1 shell in the double barrell. ! Young and fit is good to see! ......lol :mrgreen:

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Sharon » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm

What are you gentlemen talking about? :)
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:14 am

Sharon wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm
What are you gentlemen talking about? :)
They are blethering about a legend of Scotland - Robert the Bruce and his lesson learnt from a spider, all mixed up with a tiny bit of gundog stuff and an old fashioned Scottish word or two. I got the gist of it but I am not surprised by the non comprehension of other forum members. :lol:


………………………………………………...
QUOTE - - - "I strongly suspect what you did was teach the dog the difference between a training bird and a wild bird."
[/quote]

That is possible Don , she was my first ever pointing dog, and , for the most part, she was teaching me ! :lol: She had been pointing partridge for months and grouse and snipe and pheasants too and when she'd won two or three trials I began to be asked to "work" her in the central arena ring at Gamefairs as a demo dog of what pointers should do.

I knew pigeons would be the caged birds so I used a friends pigeons as a training aide. She was already vastly experienced on wild birds so the pigeons did not impress her at all ! :lol:

Bill T.
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by crackerd » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:46 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:14 am
Sharon wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm
What are you gentlemen talking about? :)
They are blethering about a legend of Scotland - Robert the Bruce and his lesson learnt from a spider, all mixed up with a tiny bit of gundog stuff and an old fashioned Scottish word or two. I got the gist of it but I am not surprised by the non comprehension of other forum members. :lol:
Somebody else wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm
"I strongly suspect what you did was teach the dog the difference between a training bird and a wild bird."
That is possible Don , she was my first ever pointing dog, and , for the most part, she was teaching me ! :lol: She had been pointing partridge for months and grouse and snipe and pheasants too and when she'd won two or three trials I began to be asked to "work" her in the central arena ring at Gamefairs as a demo dog of what pointers should do.

I knew pigeons would be the caged birds so I used a friends pigeons as a training aide. She was already vastly experienced on wild birds so the pigeons did not impress her at all ! :lol:

Bill T.
Bill, thought your first-ever pointing dog was a Spinone left behind by the Roman Legions and poached from one of your Sassenach buddies?

MG

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:06 pm

First, you dog went from planted birds to wild grouse in Michigan, the toughest of all birds to point. I have always felt that the faster the dog, the more grouse they'll pin. Just let him be a dog. He'll learn.

Range. 80-100 yards in the grouse woods is about right. Many think it's too close. Tough to get them to hunt closer than that and why would you?

Pheasant. If he doesn't relocate, you'll shoot precious few pheasant. Think this out. If the bird runs and he doesn't relocate, how will you find the bird? You probably won't and it'll be gone anyhow. When a dog relocates on birds the only way he can locate that bird is from downwind or crosswind. If the bird is running downwind, it's impossible for him to point it.

Pheasant are horrible birds for pointing dog's. With everything you're saying, I'm thinking a flusher may fit you better.

Two things that are very frustrating to correct on a dog are range and speed. Good luck.
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:47 am

crackerd wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:46 am


Bill, thought your first-ever pointing dog was a Spinone left behind by the Roman Legions and poached from one of your Sassenach buddies?

MG
Nope, my first ever pointing dog was a vizsla bitch that a certain English lord wanted trained as a Labrador - - - as a "peg dog." I got the peg dog bit right but I never did get her to leave my heels even with birds falling in plain sight nearby ……...she was born to be a peg dog coz she wouldn't do anything else ! Walking through heather or a root crop with her was nigh on impossible. She just tucked in behind my heels and looked miserable. She was a lovely pet but not more than that. His Lordship just had to make do with the lab I also trained for him.

I have never trained a spinone but have tried to help a few others to train them. I was not impressed by a single one of them …...no range, no pace, no "go." I am told they are good water dogs but I saw few signs of that among the specimens I encountered either ….. any of my cockers or springers or brittanies or GSP's were better water dogs.

I very much hope the breeds "fans" in this country are now importing dogs that actually want to work !
If you like the breed over the pond then they must be derived from different lines ?

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:12 pm

Sharon wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm
What are you gentlemen talking about? :)
We just 'gerund' now and then ..with often loquacious response.
..
Learned friends forget ,in latter years ..what they said or done or even advocated in the past . ..That makes them either learned ,or forgetful...
Much like the dog Hunting Too fast .
Or the handler allowing it.
We both ...sorry all want to get there in the end . Just wait or whoa , while I climb this hill. !!
100 yards ?? Some old timers can hardly walk that distance on a path. . despite the story on how they done it

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by CDN_Cocker » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:17 am

My dog would run too fast for my liking as well when he was young and still does right out of the gate for the first 15 minutes. He'll be 7 in January. It's definitely improved with age. However, running faster than I like has not hindered his bird finding ability. Yes I did see him a couple of times look like he got the scent late but their noses are incredible. Speed has more correlation with the hunter's comfort level than it does with the dog's skill level or effectiveness. It sounds like you're just not confident in the dog, which you highlighted again when you said 80 yards out was too far for your liking. I don't own a pointing dog but when I do add one as long as it has proper bird manners I'd be fine with it running as far and fast as it wants. Sometimes you just have to trust the dog. The wild birds will teach it how to act if they keep busting.
Cass
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Warrior372 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:50 pm

Like some others have said - that is a wild bird for you. They run and fly! I trained my brittany almost entirely on wild bird exposure because we are fortunate to live in an area where we can get him on wild quail and huns year round even on short runs / hikes form the house. These birds taught him really well that if he gets too close before going on point they run / fly and if he moves off point they will run / fly. I have gone on several hun, chukar and wild pheasant hunts where all of the birds flush 50+ yards in front of him. Wild birds are just squirrelly sometimes. I took the approach where I would not shoot any birds that he bumped - which was probably the most frustrating thing I have ever done - but he is now 3.5 and he is a great dog that understands he will not catch a wild bird unless I shoot it for him.

A training method I really liked that really took advantage of the dogs natural instincts is the Gibbons West method. A lady by the name of Carol Ptak has several youtube videos walking you through the steps to curb exactly what you are talking about.

At least you have a dog that ranges, because that is much better then having a velcro dog. I saw this picture the other day and it made me laugh. It kind of applies here -
BumpBirds.png
BumpBirds.png (2.42 MiB) Viewed 442 times

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:08 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: I liked that pic and what is suggested in it ! :lol:

Bill T.
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Re: hunting too fast

Post by crackerd » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:06 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:08 am
:lol: :lol: :lol: I liked that pic and what is suggested in it ! :lol:

Bill T.
Be even better if you could translate it into Scotsese, Bill - go on then:

You keep your dog close because he busts birds not because you like to watch him work. CHANGE MY MIND

translated into Scots would be (fill in the blank):

"______________________________________________, ya daft git!"

MG

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Re: hunting too fast

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:35 pm

Steve, as you mentioned, your dog's experiences comes from voluminous numbers of planted birds. These birds - again as mentioned - often require a "forced flush". Your dog can only draw on the experience he has been provided to date.
He is NOT too fast. That much I know even from this end of this medium. He is crowding his non-pen-raised or quasi-wild birds. That is not unusual. Your communication of the expectation needs clarified....regardless of whether pen-raised or wild birds.
As I said before, "The rules are the rules", whether it is pigeons, pen-raised birds, game farm birds, wild birds, etc. Style might be compromised. The rules are not.
Oh....and more-often-than-not, dogs regard pigeons as non-game because of their owner or the experiences they have had around birds that were handled. It isn't necessarily a conscious response by the owner but it is non-the-less the underlying attitude....which dogs can easily detect.
Finally, fast dogs are more productive on the wild birds I hunt. Slow methodical dogs often contribute to runners and/or premature, wild flushes.
Sounds like you have the makings of an exceptional bird dog! Congrats!!
Self-relocating is admirable in my opinion (especially on ditch parrots), as long as the bird is not flushed in the process.

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