Training / hunting question - missed shots

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work765
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Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by work765 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:53 pm

The last time I took my dog out hunting, I missed a few shots and wasn’t able to shoot the bird. My dog took off after the flyer and was relentlessly chasing it all over and far. The small nicks I was giving her, to come back did nothing. So I cranked the collar up and zapped her good and while giving the here command. And she turned around. But I felt like she chases the bird way too far and it potentially could have landed closer and we could have gotten it again.

How are you guys handling missed shots?





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OhioVizsla
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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by OhioVizsla » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:24 am

I trained my dog to be steady to wing & shot so it's not an issue.

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by cjhills » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:17 am

work765 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:53 pm
The last time I took my dog out hunting, I missed a few shots and wasn’t able to shoot the bird. My dog took off after the flyer and was relentlessly chasing it all over and far. The small nicks I was giving her, to come back did nothing. So I cranked the collar up and zapped her good and while giving the here command. And she turned around. But I felt like she chases the bird way too far and it potentially could have landed closer and we could have gotten it again.

How are you guys handling missed shots?





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The question is how does the dog handle missed shots.
The answer is simply, train her steady to flush and shot.....Cj

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Featherfinder
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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:58 am

To be fair to the Op, I'm beginning to think steadiness is truly a rare gem. All of the videos I recently watched of gents/ladies hunting with their bird dogs has the dogs chasing immediately after or during the flush. And...…the compliments on the dog-work is effusive! ???
I must be watching all the wrong videos, right?
A steady dog is more fun, more safe and often supports a more successful retrieve. And still, so few actually train for it.
Then again, Polmaise offered a good process on "come" (recall) under another post - "For Those That Use Clicker Training". That might also need some work where the Op's dog is concerned.
In Europe, most hunters use their dogs to flush but that does not mean they chase.

work765
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Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by work765 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:45 am

Thanks everyone! I’m pretty sure the trainer I had her with only trained her steady to wing and to fetch. She’s 1 years old. It’s her first hunting year. But I’m 100% convinced I need her steady to shot. I’m scared to death I’m going to shoot her when I take her out. This is my first hunting dog and first time hunting with a dog. So lots to learn.
Thanks everyone for the feedback.


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birddogger2
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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:33 am

work -

I am on board with everyone else regarding steady to wing and shot and fall.

HOWEVER, your dog is still a baby in many respects, and still very much a work in progress. Tread lightly and go gently. Patience, persistence and insistence with a gentle, but firm hand.

What you did with the dog initially, low intensity nick, nick nick...is EXACTLY what would have done in the same situation...So you have some pretty good instincts, or have read or listened to some good training advice.

I might not have cranked up the collar all the way, but I certainly would have gone up a couple of levels and continued the nicks. But no matter. It got the desired response and the dog seems none the worse for wear. The dog will also undoubtedly remember the correction and the low intensity nicks might be enough to "encourage" the dog to comply before getting zapped hard again. Mine have figured that out. Yours will too.

I would suggest that you do some formal training on steadiness, possibly with pigeons. Pigeons always fly away and ar rearley caught, so they are perfect for this drill,. I would plant a bird, a gamebird, in cover and probably, for the first few times, in a cage. I would bring the dog in on a checkcord and let it establish point. I would go to the dog, style it up and push...gently... from the dog's rump toward the bird. The idea is to have the dog stiffen up and resist being pushed forward.

Then I would go in front of the dog, bringing the checkcord with me, without pulling on it in any way. Then flush around and(here's where the pigeons come in), slip a pigeon out of the gamebag, so that the dog does not see me do it and let the bird fly while standing on the checkcord as you fire a shot at the departing bird. Hit or miss...the dog should stand there. I suggest the first few times that you deliberately miss.

If the dog does bolt, it will stop when it hits the end of the checkcord you are standing on. A few low intensity nicks with the e-collar for reinforcement would also be appropriate if you think of it. Then go to the dog...physically pick it up off the ground and carry it back to approximately where it was standing in the first place. Then put the dog down...gently... front feet first and then slowly lower the back end down while gently pushing forward(you want to generate the same stiffening up response as before). Try the simulated flush again with another pigeon.

I would suspect that in a very few sessions, you will have the dog standing through flush and shot...Then, proceed to killing a bird. When the bird falls, physically release the dog, with a tap on the flank or head(I prefer the flank) to do the retrieve.

The biggest PIA with steadiness is keeping it up in the field while you are hunting. You cannot just let it go and expect the dog to keep its training.

But...that is how I would get there from where you are now. Good luck and good training.

RayG

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by Urban_Redneck » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:08 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:58 am
To be fair to the Op, I'm beginning to think steadiness is truly a rare gem. All of the videos I recently watched of gents/ladies hunting with their bird dogs has the dogs chasing immediately after or during the flush. And...…the compliments on the dog-work is effusive! ???
I must be watching all the wrong videos, right?
A steady dog is more fun, more safe and often supports a more successful retrieve. And still, so few actually train for it.
Then again, Polmaise offered a good process on "come" (recall) under another post - "For Those That Use Clicker Training". That might also need some work where the Op's dog is concerned.
In Europe, most hunters use their dogs to flush but that does not mean they chase.
While not stone steady, I'm pretty happy with this level of steadiness, the beep and buzz you hear is the point alert on her Alpha. Pre-season woodcock are great teachers.

I don't know how to embed the video

https://youtu.be/HGx-AWM9VI0

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bobman
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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by bobman » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:00 am

She’s a baby, with experience she will figure out on her own she can’t catch birds that fly off and the problem will go away on its own

Never ever shoot at a low flying bird, let them fly off, even good dogs will sometimes break and chase, it’s not worth the risk ever
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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bonasa
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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by bonasa » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:23 pm

My dogs are steady to wing/shot, something is missing in your dog's training regarding breaking on the shot and de-chasing.

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:48 am

I'm with Bonasa, I think? Your dog can have tons of bird encounters. None of them will teach your dog to remain steady after the shot. You will need to actually put an effort into that.
Nice dog Urban Redneck!! I've worked with a couple of those Braques (imports). TOTALLY different than it's quasi-look-alike cousins - GSPs.

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by DonF » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:54 pm

Missed shot? :D

Saw a good video on it years ago. The guy would release a bird from a trap and let his dog get under way chasing. once under way he started nicing it till it gave up the chase. Seemed to work well.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:06 pm

Easiest solution is to train her to come when called. Always. Then you can easily call her off a bird. The danger in doing what you are is that the dog may associate the nick of the collar with the bird and begin blinking birds. Only after the dog knows commands in the YARD should they be reinforced in the field.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:08 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:06 pm
Easiest solution is to train her to come when called. Always. Then you can easily call her off a bird. The danger in doing what you are is that the dog may associate the nick of the collar with the bird and begin blinking birds. Only after the dog knows commands in the YARD should they be reinforced in the field.
Work -

What Gonehuntin' suggests is a very good way to go about it.

Some time ago he posted a description of his "de-bolting" technique, which is designed to create, in the dog's mind, the one and only safe place in this world... right by your side.

I read it and have a copy of it around somewhere in case I need to use that technique.

If you take the time to "de-bolt" your dog as he described, you will undoubtedly be able to call it off a flying bird...and pretty much anything else. I suspect.

RayG

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:25 pm

work765 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:53 pm
The last time I took my dog out hunting, I missed a few shots and wasn’t able to shoot the bird. My dog took off after the flyer and was relentlessly chasing it all over and far. The small nicks I was giving her, to come back did nothing. So I cranked the collar up and zapped her good and while giving the here command. And she turned around. But I felt like she chases the bird way too far and it potentially could have landed closer and we could have gotten it again.

How are you guys handling missed shots?
Don't shoot the messenger!
The original post sounds like (just speaking up for the dog) ..a half hearted Trash break and a half hearted frustrated handler that the dog didn't do what was wanted . It is compounded with a half hearted understanding of e-collar and a hunting scenario that neither dog or handler is actually in the right place for the situation (at that place in time ) Yet ? ...Tough crowd ? ..get yer Big pants on and take a step back a bit ... ..like ''Whoa" .(Not the Whoa drill) but ..hold your horses and take a step back ...In training . Someone else mentioned the sequential process of the shot and the fall and the shot with the bird just flying , or flushed .
A program to follow is great , if you follow that program and the dog fits in . ..What if the handler following the same program is 5 pages forward of the dog at their side ? ...''Sequential" in training requires two at the same pace.
As for 'missed shots' ..that's puppy stuff . Just shoot blanks first at nothing !! ,then blow the stop whistle while hunting . ..sequentially build from there , ..If you dare. Tell me a dog that chases nothing in the sky ..following a shot from the handler and tell you one that hasn't been conditioned to stop to shot , and one that has not been conditioned to stop to flush ,and a handler that has not conditioned a dog to know a sequential process ....with all it's wondrous prowess of ......er Hunting ?

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:11 am

I've trained quite a number of the versatile breeds and a few pointers and setters. I have also trained spaniels and labs …..it does not really matter what breed a gundog is, they can all be trained to be steady to flush, to shot and to fall of game...……..and the missed shots can be very valuable training aids for steadiness training. Think about it ….it isn't the missed birds that dogs most like to run in for ! :lol:

Training steadiness is easier than many people think , the problems that seem to surround steadiness exist far more in the human brain than in a dog's brain.

I don't use e-collars and very seldom even use a checkcord yet my pups became steady enough to take shooting or even to win field trials with.

A thing I often notice on this forum is the seemingly ingrained belief among many U.S. pointing dog trainers that finding birds, flushing birds, firing shots at birds and dogs retrieving those shot birds all need to be lumped together just as soon as possible ! Keep things apart and praise the dog whenever it behaves well during an individual part before attempting to do the full ---- hunt- point- flush- shot fired- retrieve.

A flushed bird does not necessarily have to be shot for a puppy......just saluting it's departure with a "bang" is enough to enable the trainer to ensure the dog does not move from the spot. It doesn't even have to be a shotgun that makes the "bang" . For a long time now my ability to walk has been diminishing so I have used a stick for years.

I taped a few party poppers onto the stick (after removing their contents) and, when a bird got flushed my walking stick became my shotgun …. I swung it at the bird and pulled the party poppers string. This meant the pup had now received two commands to be steady …. a bird had flown and a shot had been fired.( the raising and swinging of the stick (the gun) could also be considered by the dog as a stop command ? I hadn't thought about that before ! :oops: )


If a pup has been previously taught to stop to flush and shot as separate items then it will eventually, in the field, stop/sit to flush and shot with no commands whatsoever being given by the trainer. The flush and the shot will have become commands to stop/sit in their own individual right.

Many trainers in Britain get to this stage and then mess up and waste all that good training by getting far too excited and insistent on sending their dogs just as soon as a shot bird hits the ground. If you do this often enough then you will have trained the dog to run-in ! In training, make a definite long pause after you have shot a bird over a dog. I used to stop, get out a cigar, light it then take a couple of congratulatory puffs on it before sending the pup/dog for the bird.

It has often been said in Britain that the blokes who are the keenest bird shots usually have the worst trained dogs. If you want to keep a well trained dog then you have to think about it and work at it even when you are out hunting for real instead of just during training sessions.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Featherfinder
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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:26 am

Trekmoor SO true and I quote, "Training steadiness is easier than many people think. The problems that seem to surround steadiness exist far more in the human brain than in a dog's brain. Although...to be fair, some trainers will charge a premium for this level of steadiness. For me, a "trained dog" IS steady, or it isn't fully "trained".
Some folk like to make excuses like, "I don't need all that field trial stuff. I just want a good hunting dog." Steadiness is NOT confined to the trial dog. In fact, where safety is concerned, it is more relevant in the well-trained gun dog. Rarely are birds shot at trials!
What is not required IMO, is waiting! A reputable gun dog trainer can often turn out very high class fully finished gun dogs by the time the dogs turn 14-16 months, if they arrive early enough. (A dog lacking the basic natural ability traits/genetics is not in this group.)
Waiting CAN contribute to your dog learning things you will need to fix later on.
Develop a good plan. Execute said plan. Don't wait! Dogs only know the world we create for them. Start creating the world YOU want them to know. Don't YOU allow them learn about a world that YOU will find unpalatable later on.
Funny how today we treat dogs like humans and yet think they are cerebral voids in their early development. They are neither.

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Re: Training / hunting question - missed shots

Post by CDN_Cocker » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:14 pm

U just need to steady her. It'll be fine.
Cass
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr

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