Hold Command

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uplandviz
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Hold Command

Post by uplandviz » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:25 pm

Wanted to see if anyone has run into this issue or have recommendations. I know with Force fetch there are millions of opinions but figure i could learn from others. Dog is a 1 year old drahthaar. using the smart fetch method (bought the books).

everything i read seems to lend to not using pressure for hold. If anythigng forcing dogs mouth open and then having dog hold. do this then transistion to Force fetch.

Here is my issue: My dog refuses to cooperate. she will sit and keep her mouth locked tight. once i force her mouth open and put object in and say hold, she HOLDS the object. she wont drop it. if i see she is going to drop it, I lightly tap under her chin and she will continue to hold. When i give her the command, she drops it. She holds fine. no real mouthing or nonsense. but I am in week two of 1 or two times a day training hold and EVERY time she will just sit there and stare at me and keep her mouth locked. I then force it open and then all is fine.

If I need to use pressure to get her to do it on her own, should i just go right to force fetch? Whats the point of using pressure for hold if I am going to transition to the same thing but "fetch" command?
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Re: Hold Command

Post by cjhills » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:02 pm

Training hold makes no difference how it gets in her mouth. Just put it in her mouth, don't give her a chance to disobey some command to take the dummy. When she carries the dummy wherever you want or whatever your method says move on......Cj

uplandviz
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Re: Hold Command

Post by uplandviz » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Thanks for response. Figured I’d get more opinions haha.
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Steve007
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Re: Hold Command

Post by Steve007 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:30 pm

Try using a treat (food) as a reinforcer. Even if you have to pry her mouth open and put the training buck in her mouth, do so and then get the immediate release and reward. Don't worry about hold (though that's the goal) so much as just taking the training buck. There's a rule that says "training is like zippers; if you get stuck, stop and go back." Go back to just taking the dummy (assuming it's an appropriate item that you're working with) and then gradually add hold. Don't forget profuse verbal rewards when she takes it as well.

Frequent short sessions are better, but I assume you know that from the Smart Fetch series.

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bamanicksbd
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Re: Hold Command

Post by bamanicksbd » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:34 am

Im not familiar with smart fetch method but I am with trained retrieve ff by whatever name.

Reading your description of your issue I dont really think you have an issue. At the hold stage the goal is to get the dog to hold. How you get it in her mouth isnt the part youre working on yet. Once the dog will hold reliably then you introduce your "fetch" command and at that stage youre teaching open up and take it on command then reach and get it on command then further etc.

I dont see where youre finding an issue at the "hold" stage of the process.

I think regardless of what method is used to actually teach the dog to retrieve as opposed to just relying on the dog to retrieve because its fun for him/her youre going to teach the dog to be comfortable with or tolerate somthing being in its mouth not because its fun but because you said so. It just makes sense to get the dog to hold somthing in its mouth before you start the go get it because I said so part. Sounds to me like your dog is right on schedule in the process. I cant help but love the "process" I am a Bama fan and my dog's name is Nick. Lolol

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Hold Command

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:52 am

JOWLS; THE FORGOTTEN STEP.
Force fetch is so misunderstood on nearly every board that is not a retriever specialty board. People try to short cut it, change it, use too much pressure, use too little pressure. There is a step between HOLD and the EAR PINCH. That forgotten and omitted step is the JOWL PINCH.
Why is the JOWL PINCH so important and how is it done? The JOWL PINCE is the step between HOLD and the EAR PINCH that teaches in a very, very, mild way for the dog to accept pressure and open his mouth. When going from HOLD to the EAR PINCH directly, the dog has no idea WHY his ear is being pinched and what his response should be. They will lock their jaws, won't open them, and wonder why the heck you're hurting them.
The JOWL FETCH is performed after HOLD has been taught. Perform it in the same place, dog at your side or on the table next to you. The trainer places his hand on the dog's muzzle, wrapping over the muzzle. Then the two upper jowls are pinched GENTLY against the canines, the command FETCH given and just enough pressure applied to get the dog to open his mouth. When he does, pull up on the jowl' so they are not pinched between the teeth and the dowel, stick the dowel in and command HOLD. Keep doing this until when you simply touch the dog's muzzle and command FETCH, he pops his mouth open and reaches for the training buck. If he drops the buck, which he shouldn't after HOLD has been instilled, pick up the buck, command FETCH, pinch the jowl, and place the buck back in the student's mouth.
That's it. Once the pup is popping his jowl's open and reaching forward, he's ready for the ear pinch and in a very short time, many times only a day, will take the buck when the command FETCH is given and the ear pinched. I have forced some dog's entirely with the jowl and never gone to the ear, but I don't recommend that. I'm an ear pincher.
Hopefully those reading this can immediately see why it works so well and why the step should not be skipped. It eliminates many of the problems associated with force fetch. In this day of short cuts to dog training, this is one EXTRA step that can actually turn into a short cut.
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DonF
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Re: Hold Command

Post by DonF » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:52 pm

I have never understood the need for the hold command. What does fetch mean? I take that to mean go get it pick it up and bring it here! Now will hold send the dog? I don't think so unless the trainer interput's it different than I would. When taking the dog down to the table to retrieve, what command tell to dog what to do? Fetch?
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Re: Hold Command

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:26 pm

Don , Me Too !
But then I never really understood why many use various verbal commands . Maybe it is for an audibly understanding human audience ?
If I don't take something from the dog ..then that is Hold , right ?
lol....
The infraction/issue may in many cases be , because the item Is taken and learned by the dog in the process ...just saying. :mrgreen:

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Re: Hold Command

Post by cjhills » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:02 pm

I guess the need for a hold command would be to train the dog not to drop the bird at your feet or some place else along the way. Most of the commands used to train have little or no use once the dog is trained. The dogs we hunt with never have a vocal command to retrieve. just tap or hand signal. The only need for that is to keep them from going early.
If you do not take something from the dog how does he know not to drop it and go on his way.....Cj

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Re: Hold Command

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:17 pm

I guess , the desire to Want the thing in the gob is based on holding the thing ...Taking it from the dog before the desire to hold on to it would be Not hold on to it ..............Drop. ? especially if Pressure direct or indirect were used to one that was 'unsure' what to do .

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Hold Command

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:26 pm

DonF wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:52 pm
I have never understood the need for the hold command. What does fetch mean? I take that to mean go get it pick it up and bring it here! Now will hold send the dog? I don't think so unless the trainer interput's it different than I would. When taking the dog down to the table to retrieve, what command tell to dog what to do? Fetch?
The FF process has three components and each is important. HOLD means to open your mouth while stationary, grab and hold the object.

FETCH demands motion. It means the dog should move ahead, open his mouth and grasp an object.

DROP means he should open his mouth and drop. Teaching a dog all three commands will give you tools to eliminate any mouth problems that may develop later.
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polmaise
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Re: Hold Command

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:01 pm

FH
Is more like .........I want , but you can take it , if you want ..as long as I get it back and we can play this game all day long .

uplandviz
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Re: Hold Command

Post by uplandviz » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:04 am

Thanks for the responses. I figured it out....

Surprisingly, she HATES the paint roller. I used it because program said dogs tend to love it. Switched to a wooden dowel and instantly changed her mood.

I know after FF she won’t have an option but at this point, her resistance and clamming up to the roller was pointless bc we weren’t getting anywhere fighting just to hold.

With the dowel, she holds and our reps are more repetitive and longer without her shutting down.

Should be ready to walk/hold by end of week and start FF.
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Re: Hold Command

Post by Thirdy8special » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:01 pm

I taught fetch to a place board, then to hand on pb(in the house), then 'hold' & 'give' afterwards(where all they had to do was hold...no retrieve). Then at end of hold&give session after they were doing well, I threw dummy a short ways, dog brought dummy to place board and sat down & held(just to connect the dots in a confined place first). Now, pup holds after a retrieve without me saying 'hold' till I say 'give'.
Hope this helps.
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polmaise
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Re: Hold Command

Post by polmaise » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:02 pm

uplandviz wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:04 am
Thanks for the responses. I figured it out....
"by uplandviz » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:40 pm
Thanks for response. Figured I’d get more opinions haha."
Sounds like you have it all figured out ..

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