VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

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Higgins
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VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Higgins » Fri May 29, 2020 10:21 pm

The best retrieves are the ones you didn't ask for.

https://youtu.be/675lcmTgraI

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by polmaise » Sat May 30, 2020 10:32 am

A good training scenario however with a dog that obviously has ,or has had an issue with retrieving to hand with a bird ,walking away for the dog to follow with 'It's prize! in it's mouth is pretty basic stuff that really should have been resolved in puppy training before live or even cold birds tbh !
This dog ,or any other doing the same (as in the video) are definitely Not sharing their prey .
Whilst I like watching a few of your clips , this one is a big thumbs down ..Sorry if that comes across as negative , but hey' we can't all go hugging and kissing everyone or everything ,just because we have a fan club :)

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:13 am

Polmaise, I'm not disputing your observation however I'm confident this dog will retrieve to hand. It just isn't "there" in it's training and we don't know what the owner did with this dog if anything, in it's puppy stages.
My video quality is poor. Is that a GSP?

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by crackerd » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:57 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:13 am
Polmaise, I'm not disputing your observation however I'm confident this dog will retrieve to hand. It just isn't "there" in it's training and we don't know what the owner did with this dog if anything, in it's puppy stages.
My video quality is poor. Is that a GSP?
No Feather, not a GSP, a GPS - Good Prey Sharer.

MG

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Higgins » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:33 am

Hello Featherfinder,

She is a Braque Francais.



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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Aahh...a BF. Nice dog.
No crackered, I must disagree with you. Mr. Higgins develops nice dogs and his methods are often criticized but rarely bested.
If you don't believe that, you need to watch outdoor programs, hunting videos, or pointing dog training videos of folk hunting right across North America where dogs run rampant on the flush and/or shot. Then, you hear them say, "Nice dog! Boy.....those dogs were awesome weren't they?" Meanwhile, I have to regurgitate my dinner!
You won't see that with one of Mr. Higgin's pupils. If you don't appreciate how he gets there - and he uses very humane methods compared to many aversion-based methods - you/Polmaise/et al have every right to comment however it undermines the results.
The results should be the final call and he get's 'em, without demeaning the dogs. I'm not saying you don't get results. I'm saying he does. I also appreciate his philosophies AND that he shares them openly for folk that have the aptitude to extract the salient content.
Most traditional handlers today blindly follow those that went before them with little-to-no understanding of what they concede in order to achieve entry level performances. Well....almost entry level.... They keep driving that square peg into that round hole. The only thing they have to determine is how big a hammer they will use. THEY are the ones blindly drinking the Kool-Aid while totally oblivious to a fine glass of single malt. "Let them drink Kool-Aid", I say.
Further-to-this, I personally have seen his processes copied years later by others touting THEIR methods of achieving success. They even adopt his terminology - not excluding "sharing". It's funny to seem them try to duplicate his processes but many end up butchering the tasks simply because they don't understand the underlying concepts.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by averageguy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:39 pm

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by polmaise » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:09 am

Say what you see:
When anyone posts a video they immediately put their head above the parapet and not all have the confidence to do so.
The dog in the short video is not sharing anything least of all her prey .
Without prejudice' -At the beginning of the clip the dog is 'Standing over' the game ,it is only when the handler and the other shooter walks away from the dog ,that the dog 'claims' the bird. That is what I see!
Anything else regarding the OP,the philosophy ,previous achievements ,other dogs etc is Not what is being questioned.
................
Say what you see; (FF) From a training viewpoint ,if any pupil is to learn by watching and believing what the 'Sensi' is saying and respected because of previous achievements ,then perhaps they should look at other 'schools of thought'. I recall many years ago at a Shoot training day when such a 'Sensi' sent their dog on a very long retrieve which required skilled handling due to distance,terrain and obstacles . The dog came back with a Rooster in it's mouth with great applause from the gallery. This very proud 'Sensi' turned around to one of my late/great mentor's and said "Some retrieve eh!" ..He replied "Aye, but it was a Hen bird that was Shot!" :lol:

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:56 am

What I mainly noticed in that video is how much junk the poor dog is lugging around with it.
In my opinion if a dog really needs to drag check cords around and wear electronic gadgetery around it's neck then something in the dogs basic training has been skimped on or missed out completely.

Plus …..that dog did not look like a happy bunny ! Take the junk off the dog and begin again with a happy dog that loves to retrieve because it has been enjoyably encouraged to.

Do dogs "share" their prey ? I don't really know exactly what is going through a dog's head when I am encouraging it to retrieve . Maybe it is trying to share with me but I sort of suspect that it just wants me to take the article and throw it again ???

This sort of training on bumpers and cold, dead birds eventually gives way to retrieves on fresh shot birds …...and the dog then has a choice to make.... take the bird away and eat it or bury it or drop it somewhere else …..or …..return to me with it for praise, even if it is only a very brief " Good boy !" Almost all dogs, if properly trained in the first place, will choose to return to their owner with the bird.

Very often , when I look at one of Brad's videos, I am left wondering why it was posted because it showed only what I and hundreds of others have been doing with pointing dogs for a very long time. In a way we are more advanced than Brad seems to be for we do not usually need check cords or any kind of electronic gadgetry in order to have dogs that hunt, point and retrieve, land or water, fur or feather without running in.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:13 am

Thanks for "sharing" Polmaise/Trekmoor. Perhaps you touched on something. Perhaps we - on this side of the pond - do things differently. Perhaps we are WAY behind you in terms of processes, concepts, methods, etc.
You should be able to glean from the responses or better yet the lack of responses that Mr. Higgins' videos are anything but the typical norm, on this side of the pond.
LOVE the cock vs hen story. I guess that the sage trainer got a bit "cocky". :D

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by cjhills » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:25 am

Thank You P and T.....Cj

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by bonasa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:37 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:56 am
What I mainly noticed in that video is how much junk the poor dog is lugging around with it.
In my opinion if a dog really needs to drag check cords around and wear electronic gadgetery around it's neck then something in the dogs basic training has been skimped on or missed out completely.
Nobody is an island and many borrow methods from others to incorporate into their own method. Higgins spent time with Maurice Lindley and that is how Mo runs his dogs, " in full dress" until they are broke. Not sure if that is the case or it could be a case of convergent evolution of training methods.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by mask » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:22 pm

We don't know the history of this dog. A lot of the dogs I get in are head cases that were screwed up by owners and/or so called trainers. So you have to undo some bad stuff and build on the positive if there is any. This means sort of starting over. Brad is a good trainer that gets results, you have got to respect that. Maybe all you trainers should start posting videos for the folks to critique. That would give everyone some good ideas on training.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by RyanDoolittle » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:29 pm

bonasa wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:37 am
Trekmoor wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:56 am
What I mainly noticed in that video is how much junk the poor dog is lugging around with it.
In my opinion if a dog really needs to drag check cords around and wear electronic gadgetery around it's neck then something in the dogs basic training has been skimped on or missed out completely.
Nobody is an island and many borrow methods from others to incorporate into their own method. Higgins spent time with Maurice Lindley and that is how Mo runs his dogs, " in full dress" until they are broke. Not sure if that is the case or it could be a case of convergent evolution of training methods.
These 2 fellas that are commenting on this thread have no idea about what big country is and how big it truly is. There is a reason we run GPS and ecollars on our dogs over here. The type of dog we have over here to run that country is also considerably different than what they have "across the pond". At this point I would take both with a grain of salt until they have experienced the west for themselves.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:10 am

I can only agree with the above post …. I do not know what "big country" is in the sense you mean but I have considerable experience of working pointing dogs on and over Scotland's hills and moors. It is still very possible or even very likely , to walk for hours over the hills .and never see anyone at all. Miles and miles of land with nothing but heather, rough grasses, peat hags and scree slopes to be seen.

That is more than enough land to lose a wide running dog on and dogs do get lost here. I was maybe lucky , none of my dogs were ever lost and when a friends dog did get lost it was soon found. It got lost because it chased a hare over the crest of a hill and did not at once stop to flush or stop to whistle or recall to whistle …..if it had done so then it would not have got lost. Obedience to commands is often the key to not losing a dog. I prefer to train my dogs rather than attach telemetry to them or check cords or e-collars.

I agree that it often needs a wide running dog in order to find game on land that has very little game. Personally though, I do not want my dogs to exceed about 300 yards from me when they hunt. I have often stopped or recalled a dog on the whistle at up to double that distance but for practical hunting/working purposes here, 300 yards is more than enough.

As I understood the posts following the O.P. the dog in the film is a French breed known for it's sensitivity ? That breed of dog tends not to be particularly wide hunters....or so I have read because I have never seen one "in the flesh." So why the telemetry ?

It is also very true that we do not know the history of this dog. Perhaps it is prone to running away after some bad experience in it's past ? If so then the telemetry is a good idea.

I admit to being old fashioned …. I don't like and don't use electrical gizmos …...I don't even have a cell phone ! I do like to see dogs looking happy as they work and the dog in the film did not look happy ….it looked anxious. One of the reasons for that could be the collar, rope and telemetry attached to it. That stuff really is unnecessary for most dogs.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by averageguy » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:55 am

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by cjhills » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:43 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:10 am
I can only agree with the above post …. I do not know what "big country" is in the sense you mean but I have considerable experience of working pointing dogs on and over Scotland's hills and moors. It is still very possible or even very likely , to walk for hours over the hills .and never see anyone at all. Miles and miles of land with nothing but heather, rough grasses, peat hags and scree slopes to be seen.

That is more than enough land to lose a wide running dog on and dogs do get lost here. I was maybe lucky , none of my dogs were ever lost and when a friends dog did get lost it was soon found. It got lost because it chased a hare over the crest of a hill and did not at once stop to flush or stop to whistle or recall to whistle …..if it had done so then it would not have got lost. Obedience to commands is often the key to not losing a dog. I prefer to train my dogs rather than attach telemetry to them or check cords or e-collars.

I agree that it often needs a wide running dog in order to find game on land that has very little game. Personally though, I do not want my dogs to exceed about 300 yards from me when they hunt. I have often stopped or recalled a dog on the whistle at up to double that distance but for practical hunting/working purposes here, 300 yards is more than enough.

As I understood the posts following the O.P. the dog in the film is a French breed known for it's sensitivity ? That breed of dog tends not to be particularly wide hunters....or so I have read because I have never seen one "in the flesh." So why the telemetry ?

It is also very true that we do not know the history of this dog. Perhaps it is prone to running away after some bad experience in it's past ? If so then the telemetry is a good idea.

I admit to being old fashioned …. I don't like and don't use electrical gizmos …...I don't even have a cell phone ! I do like to see dogs looking happy as they work and the dog in the film did not look happy ….it looked anxious. One of the reasons for that could be the collar, rope and telemetry attached to it. That stuff really is unnecessary for most dogs.

Bill T.
Having spent 60+ years hunting dogs in "big Country", the last 20+ with ecollars, I find they do make things a lot easier, especially in the huge grouse woods. But, people hunted with pointing dogs long before they hunted with a GPS. I never lost a dog in all those years. I had to leave my jacket a few times with hounds.
I do think Trekmor is right, electronics cover up a lot of training issues.
The dogs in Higgin's videos sometimes seem unsure of themselves and not very happy. WE don't know any background or breeding so we can't say why. but they seem to look to him for guidance. If the end results are what you want great. I have seen some really brutal trainers before the ecollar became popular...….Cj

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by polmaise » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:16 am

Big Country ,wee Country ,or anyone else's country ..Highland,Lowland ,Cattails and puppy dog tails ,you can say what you want which is nothing to do with the original post and heading "Choosing to share her Prey"
A dog standing over game in the presence of others is not choosing to share anything !
Not returning with game and delivering does not require any guns or any country...It can be trained in the yard so there is also no requirement to know the dogs past history either although the setting and background makes a nice picture for effect of the viewer perhaps . .......
We never did see the dog 'share' her prey?? ..we just seen it reluctantly follow still holding on to it ....
....
Averageguy ..You asked ? I have never had a dog with anything on it's body not want to play with me in the yard and not want to bring something back to me including greyhounds and terriers amongst many others ,so it is also nothing to do with breed or breeding (ime) ..I had a Labrador Retriever from a client a while back that refused to retrieve ..Trekmoor' (Bill) also had a go with it and Nope....no joy ! ..So I never fed it for 2 days ,then chucked a Juicy Knuckle bone and that dog went like grease lightning and picked it up ,I recalled it and chucked it again and again ...then just cable tied it to a canvass dummy ..voila'. I wouldn't do that with the dog in the clip on this thread though ....because it stands over the game ! Most training can be done in the yard , then proofing the training in the field with game ,that's why it's more seamless with steady to shot and fall and retrieve to hand ...we already know they can hunt ,now that is in the breeding .

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Idylwyld » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:30 am

averageguy wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:55 am

If you all or Higgins ever want to actually teach us how you go about your training I am all ears.

The trainer I follow provides exact and precise step by step video instruction on how to teach each step in his process, demonstrating it on multiple dogs in various stages of their training. It allows me to learn and replicate the methods and know how to address problems when they arise. Absent that other peoples claims are of no value to someone such as myself trying to learn something.
I have not posted much on this board. I aint some famous dog trainer guru.
Lost in all the fur flying and chest pounding internet ( now international internet)dog training nonsense above you make an excellent point.
I do precisely that in person. Currently with three different people. One of those folks occasionally posts here.
I am totally unabashed in my way of training. I call it old school West/Gibbons. It is the same "root" Lindleys and Higgins stuff sprang from.
Here is two of those dogs latest progress report. I ask only one thing. Judge results not semantics. Note the Britt crouch and almost want to break. He aint done yet.
Also note the GSP and that not so great retrieve. Im trying like heck to get owner to let me coach him thru force breaking. With no success so far. BTW the GSP is gasp an unregistered dog. Used to hunt over only.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU0S3LW ... ex=16&t=0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNoLEeS ... K&index=19
Do I know what Im doing? My approach is less talk, provide a few videos and allow you judge for yourself. Not many are doing that on the net for some reason?
I May wind up with a 4th person added to the group in the future. In return I get gunners and extra pairs of hands working dogs. Its a symbiotic relationship that currently seems to be working decently.

I long ago gave up on internet dog training. Far too many "experts" wanting to argue. I simply dont have time for it. I have come to believe that hands on, in person help is the way to go.
I also am intelligent enough and reasonable enough to understand that my way of training is NOT the only way to get a dog trained.
In absence of being physically present around someone training, what you are doing in your dog training makes perfect sense. Please stay your course.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by averageguy » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:50 pm

Idylwyld, Looks good.

I am reading "Training with Mo" now. I hear alot of folks recommend and use it and thought it was past due for me to get educated on his approach. Which as you say came from Gibbons/West.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Idylwyld » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:53 pm

averageguy wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:50 pm

I am reading "Training with Mo" now. I hear alot of folks recommend and use it and thought it was past due for me to get educated on his approach. Which as you say came from Gibbons/West.
The correct order is West /Gibbons. I worked directly with both ( more Gibbons than West)for several years while I lived in Phoenix. West had one foot out the door to retirement by the time I wandered into things.
Mo went to using launchers. I do not. I stick with the carded birds. Principles are the pretty much the same.
Heres a video for you that Bill West did years ago. This shows the background of what Mo is doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amqSD1n ... ex=8&t=25s. This video I believed was lost to time. It popped up on you tube recently. A guy named Mark Pfeiffer graciously took the time to get it digitally done and on you tube.
Mos book is a good one. Another to consider is Dave Walkers book.
You might consider looking here also. https://www.facebook.com/groups/steadyw ... =bookmarks.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:05 am

If I moved house to the USA and wanted to train and work and possibly field trial gundogs then just about the first thing I'd buy would be an e-collar. From what I've read I'd need to use it if I wanted to win in your retriever tests and trials. I don't need one here because our trials are very different to yours. The way Britain holds trials all I needed to train for and win a few retriever and versatile gundog trials was access to game, dummies (bucks) , a leash , a whistle and darned good walking boots ! I'd add a few party poppers to that list for "bangs" for the pups and I was good to go.

If I wanted to work any gundog breed in the USA I would buy and use an e-collar. It makes sense to use one for avoidance training when you have to contend with skunks, porcupines, snakes, alligators, bears, wolves, coyotes and mountain lions ! In good old Britain all I ever have to think about is adders and ,as snakes go, they are not particularly venomous or aggressive.

I have quite often seen my pointing dogs point adders and I've seen labs go into a frenzy of barking and dancing around when they found an adder. Although I have walked in places where adders are fairly plentiful many times I have never seen either a person or a dog get bitten by one …..so I don't need an e-collar for avoidance training ….except maybe for sheep and deer with an occasional dog ! :x

I strongly suspect that some "lines" of some American gundog breeds are considerably "harder going" in the sense that they love to run above all else than are the great majority of British gundogs. I have seen pointing breeds and spaniels and retrievers run amok here though ….just about any keen hunting dog can do that ! :lol:

Some guys in the USA like the dogs that will run half a mile or more out from the handler but liking it and controlling it are two very different things. And yet it seems to me that many would be hunters in the states deliberately buy from breeders of "mile out " dogs ?
That is probably why so many US hunters use an e-collar …..they bought "too much dog for them ??? "

I doubt very much if British field trailers would win in America …..we think differently and we do tend not to breed "mile out" dogs.

I apologise to anyone offended by my posts. I do not necessarily think British methods are better than those used in the U.S. of A. but they are a bit different and they do work for thousands of gundog owners …...in Britain .

Bill T.
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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by crackerd » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:28 am

Now Bill, admit it, you're just chafed 'cause you can't get a spinone to share her prey over there, keeping them bagged wild haggi all for herself.

Now if you went at it from a 'Merican pointing dog trialer's perspective - you know, them who so mellifluously "sang" without surcease for their dogs' supper - a couple numbers from "Tosca" might "serve" y'all quite well... :wink:

MG

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Idylwyld » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:05 am
I strongly suspect that some "lines" of some American gundog breeds are considerably "harder going" in the sense that they love to run above all else than are the great majority of British gundogs. I have seen pointing breeds and spaniels and retrievers run amok here though ….just about any keen hunting dog can do that.

Some guys in the USA like the dogs that will run half a mile or more out from the handler but liking it and controlling it are two very different things. And yet it seems to me that many would be hunters in the states deliberately buy from breeders of "mile out " dogs ?
That is probably why so many US hunters use an e-collar …..they bought "too much dog for them ??? "

I doubt very much if British field trailers would win in America …..we think differently and we do tend not to breed "mile out" dogs.
You are not wrong in your thinking above and do not offend me personally. Key words above, liking and controlling. Us bloody yanks have a strong tendency to lean towards extremes. I cant fix it, but I am smart enough to recognize it.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by averageguy » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:42 am

T
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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:59 am

averageguy wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:42 am

Here is my adult dog "sharing his prey" in this morning's review of steady to WSF work.

Image

Gently dropping in my hand when I ask for it.
Image
Where is the Like button.
Now that is 'Sharing the prey'. Thanks for posting 'AG' .
btw, that countryside looks like many parts of the UK . Nice pics.
......
ps . The best retrieves are the ones that are delivered ,not the ones you didn't ask for.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:36 am

Yes Average Guy …. a nice clean and tidy delivery. Must admit that I used to let my own dogs slip back a bit from a really good "present." They'd stand while delivering and a few of them , especially my favourite dog, my cocker spaniel "Charlie" used to do a little "it's mine" dance as he gave me birds or dummies !

I liked the little devil too much to do anything about his possessive habits while giving me retrieves ! :roll:

I'd love to post a training video into here but I only ever made two and they were full length instructional videos of H.P.R. training . They sold quite well all around the world and were the first HPR training vids ever made in Britain. ---- The quality of those home made videos left a lot to be desired but the content was good. I think that was about 30 years ago, I couldn't even begin to make one now...… I can hardly even walk as far as my garden gate and my wife has to walk my remaining dogs...…...my little "saying" at the end of all my posts says it all and says it best - - - -- "The older I get the better I was !" :lol:

People like Mr.Higgins who post in their videos are being courageous enough to stick their heads up above the parapet. People who do that are often fired on by both "experts" and complete amateurs...…it's just the way people are.

I like much of what he posts and it may help a lot of folk ...…but maybe not in Britain. We tend to do some of the "methods" he shows anyway ....and we do it minus the check cords, e- collars, telemetry and magic brush piles ! Britain's gundog training methods are old fashioned but with some more modern ideas added that, I think, have improved them over the last 50 or so years.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:15 am

I'm bored stiff just sitting about the place so I took another look at "Average Guys" photographs. Robert (Polmaise) is right, the scenery is just like we have here. I can be in fields like those within 5 minutes of leaving my house. I have very easy access to miles of "public land" that contains varied grasslands and woodlands and marshes , rivers and ponds and a small loch or two. I have land in abundance right on my doorstep ….but there is little game on it.

I have at times hunted some good game finding dogs over that land for as much as two hours without finding any game of any kind. To get my HPR pups used to hunting for and pointing game I asked the gamekeepers for as much as 80 miles around me for permission to hunt over their land at suitable times of the year. Because those men knew me and because I'd worked my dogs for them I was always permitted to use their land and their plentiful game.

I could not, of course, shoot their game but I could not shoot it on the public land near my house either. It did not really matter ! I worked around the "no shooting" problem and still ended up with very keen hunting and retrieving dogs that won a few field trials. Pups will learn to hunt, to point, to be steady to flush and to shot without the owner ever shooting anything over them .

They learn by repetition not to break point unless commanded to and not to chase following a flush ,commanded or otherwise. A shot is not required either, it can be taught as a separate exercise that when a shot is fired the pup must stop dead in it's tracks and wait until told it can move, either to retrieve or to continue hunting.

Like Mr.Higgins' I do not want my dogs to run in to shot and fall of game. I believe a standing or sitting dog can mark the fall of game better than a dog that is galloping wildly over broken country or through reeds or bushes when it sees a bird fall.
I have never found complete steadiness particularly difficult to achieve because, I think, my dogs have had steadiness taught to them in separate little stages. These are stop/sit to flush, stop/sit to shot and stop/sit whenever something --- anything--- falls through the air nearby.

If steadiness is taught in that broken up but progressive way then every time one of my HPR's (or spaniels) saw a bird shot it had received three separately taught cues to stop/sit each one of which reinforced the proceeding stop/sit cue.

About 3 years ago I sold my last ever HPR.... a Brittany. I sold her because I can hardly manage to walk 20 -30 yards now. Her new owner was delighted with her except for one thing that he says (he has other brits and GSP's) he is still trying to get used to ….the bitch is completely and utterly steady to fall of game.

Her new owner is an experienced gundog man but he has never had a steady dog before....he thought she either did not retrieve or that she was unwell when he first shot a bird over one of her points …..he was very worried when she just sat there doing nuffin ! :lol: She was waiting on her command to retrieve and the man had forgotten all about it because his self trained dogs always just ran-in.

She is still steady 3 years later …or so I am told. That tells me just how effective separately taught steadiness to flush and shot and fall can be.

I should really have started another thread for my waffling ! :roll: As I said at the start …I am bored !

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by averageguy » Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:42 pm

Bill T, Sure would be interested in seeing your old training video if you had a way to upload it to Youtube or something similar.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:44 am

Hi average guy. I am not nearly "techie" enough to take that old tape and somehow transfer it onto a disc and then post that onto U TUBE.

The two training videos were the idea of a gsp man called Ian Sayers. We were good friends and he lived just 8 miles from me so he got himself a fairly cheap camera and some other gear and asked me to partner him in the film he wanted to make...….. He said he needed me coz I was much better at blethering than he was ! :lol:

Ian died a couple of years back and I miss him ....he was one heck of a character. He was as rough as a badgers bum and twice as hairy ! :lol:

Ian knocked his pan in trying to teach me , I am very non-techy, how to use the camera and we took turns each of either working a dog or managing the camera. The result was a poor quality film with quite good quality content.

The first film was about how to train young GSP's . I had a 7 -8 months old pup that I'd bred myself and Ian had a bitch pup of, I think, 12 - 13 months that he'd bred himself. Our two pups were closely related .

I'd done nothing at all with my own pup because I hadn't intended to keep him ….. I thought he was a damp squib ! During the very first couple of filming sessions that pup just sort of came into bloom. Maybe the increase in attention paid to him kick started him ?

Anyway he came on in leaps and bounds during the filming sessions and I kept him ! He became one of the best dogs I have ever had. Ian and I had a few differences in opinion during the making of the two films . He did things during retrieve training with dogs that I would never do. Like commanding a dog to drop one retrieve article at many yards of distance from him and then pick another completely similar article (training dummy) and retrieve it to hand.

I wouldn't do that then and I still wouldn't do it now but Ian had no problems teaching this at all. When he asked me why I would not do it I hardly knew where to start ! I would be too aware that doing this could make a pup anxious . It could slow down a pups retrieving it could even make a pup refuse to have anything more to do with retrieving !

We agreed to disagree on that subject and I had to admit doing this caused him no problems. I still think it could be a disaster if this was done with a rather sensitive dog but I will never know coz I will never do it !

We used the money we made on the first film to buy better equipment and our second film was better quality.....so much so that it got pirated and our sales fell away to nothing ! :x

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Idylwyld » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:20 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:15 am
Pups will learn to hunt, to point, to be steady to flush and to shot without the owner ever shooting anything over them .

I have never found complete steadiness particularly difficult to achieve because, I think, my dogs have had steadiness taught to them in separate little stages. These are stop/sit to flush, stop/sit to shot and stop/sit whenever something --- anything--- falls through the air nearby.

If steadiness is taught in that broken up but progressive way...

What you call stages. I call links in a chain. I "teach" by adding links one at a time. Same concept, different terminology.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by polmaise » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:14 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:44 am
I am not nearly "techie" enough to take that old tape and somehow transfer it onto a disc and then post that onto U TUBE.
That's a pity 'Wullie' , I am sure folks on here would love to see you in Flared trousers a Fair Isle jumper and a Hippy hair style :lol:

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:34 am

Hi Robert, not even in my youth did I have a hippy hair style ! I was a "rocker" not a "mod" or a hippy. I had no interest in flower power ….though some of the hippy ladies did interest me a lot ! :lol:

How are you keeping ? Are you as bored with this lock down thing as I am ? The only fun I have had in the last month or so was two days ago when I had to fish wee Charlie back out of the canal . He'd dived in headlong to chase the ducks ! He is as deaf as a post now and his eyesight is fading too but I think he regards those things as bonuses .... if he can't hear me yelling "No !" and can't see my arm signals then, in his opinion, he can do whatever the heck he wants ! :lol: Auld age has it's benefits in his little world ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bill T.
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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by crackerd » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:50 am

polmaise wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:14 am
Trekmoor wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:44 am
I am not nearly "techie" enough to take that old tape and somehow transfer it onto a disc and then post that onto U TUBE.
That's a pity 'Wullie' , I am sure folks on here would love to see you in Flared trousers a Fair Isle jumper and a Hippy hair style :lol:
Bill, you know the old saying "Read your dog?" - methinks you should be reading Robt. a little more sagaciously. My read on what he's noted above is that he has bootleg copies of your early HPR training vids, and is implicitly threatening to go public with them or put them up for pay-per-view on Vimeo, maybe even have them go to the high bidder on ebay.co.uk. Beware of - or maybe give in to - his extortion attempt at exposing you as the Gundog Donovan Leitch of the swinging sixties! :wink:

MG

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:27 pm

Mike, the video would be good , if only for the attire ! Alas after days with no reference to share the prey the thread may be pulled merely on a technicality of having nothing to do with sharing .
Nice bit of historical when it lasted .

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by mask » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:31 pm

Maybe there should be a thread on sour grapes :lol:

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by crackerd » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:08 am

mask wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:31 pm
Maybe there should be a thread on sour grapes :lol:
If you think Polmaise is sour graping things, you need only tune into the many (many) gundog amateurs and novices from the UK and across the continent who not only trust in his guidance and methods, but flourish with his hands'-on help and (lately) "Zoom-in" instruction.

Also trying to wrap my poor haid 'round the happy talk training bon mot that started it all:
Higgins wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:21 pm
The best retrieves are the ones you didn't ask for.
Exhibit A , maybe?
100_3033.jpg
MG
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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by ddoyle » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:54 pm

I admit i did not read all the posts....man some of you guys can write! My only note isn't about the training at all but about the dog carrying the bird. If the dog is being respectful of the game why would you be in a rush to take it from a younger dog. I have ruined a couple of dogs desire to retrieve by going after the bird to fast. Perfection Kennel tells you not to be a bird snatcher/
Doyle

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by averageguy » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:11 pm

Couple of days ago I was heading towards to the kennel to put my 5 month old pup up. I turned around to see where she was and saw she was heading towards me with something in her mouth. Turns out she had found a dead fledging bird. She could have eaten it or gone the other way with it. Instead she brought it to me without me saying a word.

That would seem to be choosing to share her prey.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by cjhills » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:22 pm

I don't know about that.I am not real crazy about it when they choose to share snakes, possums,skunks and all manner of critters that have been dead longer than I like. Sometimes I wish they would just keep my share.....Cj

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by averageguy » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:46 pm

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Last edited by averageguy on Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by cjhills » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:12 pm

I can't imagine why anyone would whip a 5 month old pup for anything. For sure not for doing what she is being trained to do....Cj

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by averageguy » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:07 pm

[
Last edited by averageguy on Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VIDEO: Choosing to Share Her Prey

Post by Meller » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:15 pm

I think you both could use a course in sarcasm!
Reread the last few posts of each other, I see sarcasm in each of your post. :)

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