How to teach "turning"?

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Joe3232
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How to teach "turning"?

Post by Joe3232 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:26 pm

Any tips for how to teach your dog to turn or "handle" in the field? Thanks

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Higgins » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:09 am

Hello Joe3232. Here is a video I did on the subject. My method is different than most. As you’ll see in the video, no obedience or commands are necessary.

https://vimeo.com/104148324?ref=em-share

Brad Higgins
Www.HigginsGundogs.com

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Sharon » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm

Definitely think a lot of Higgins ' method ,but I do it differently. I start in the back yard with a check cord and a command. I use "yohhhhh" . Use the command ,turn the dog. Then extend your distant from the dog using the command. Same as you might teach "come". I use the command in the field when I'm sure the dog knows what is expected. If he ignores me, I use the e collar .
When participating in trials ,obeying some kind of command ( Some trialers sing.) is essential as there are many turns on trial grounds.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by crackerd » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:49 pm

Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm
Definitely think a lot of Higgins ' method ,but I do it differently. I start in the back yard with a check cord and a command. I use "yohhhhh" . Use the command ,turn the dog. Then extend your distant from the dog using the command. Same as you might teach "come". I use the command in the field when I'm sure the dog knows what is expected. If he ignores me, I use the e collar .
When participating in trials ,obeying some kind of command ( Some trialers sing.) is essential as there are many turns on trial grounds.
And sang. And sang,and sang. Then again, Gene Autry did, too. Your way would be more to my ears' liking - and probably the dogs' ears too, Sharon. :wink:

MG

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm

Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm
I use the command in the field when I'm sure the dog knows what is expected. If he ignores me, I use the e collar .
Whilst your Singing may be of virtue, if the dog knows what is expected ,then why would it ignore you ? ,
I was just watching a great film 'A few Good Men' ..and just thought of a 'Code Red' .

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by crackerd » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:51 pm

polmaise wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm
Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm
I use the command in the field when I'm sure the dog knows what is expected. If he ignores me, I use the e collar .
Whilst your Singing may be of virtue, if the dog knows what is expected ,then why would it ignore you ? ,
I was just watching a great film 'A few Good Men' ..and just thought of a 'Code Red' .
Dunno, Robt., but back when you were in Her Majesty's Service, and posted to our neck of the empire, I gotta think (and Sharon might agree) that the best birddog trialing "song" ever came along even if the narration weren't necessarily "sangin'," nor "Code Red," but was coded just right nevertheless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3VN54M1OXA

MG

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by shags » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:02 pm

polmaise wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm
Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm
I use the command in the field when I'm sure the dog knows what is expected. If he ignores me, I use the e collar .
Whilst your Singing may be of virtue, if the dog knows what is expected , then why would it ignore you ? ,
I was just watching a great film 'A few Good Men' ..and just thought of a 'Code Red' .
Cuz it's just a dog and dogs get attitudes now and again?

I do as Sharon does but I have two commands. YOOOOOoooooo for when the dog is far out and the turn can be wide, or Hup, Bud! when I want a sharp turn or a 180.

To teach, I command and turn in the direction I wish to go, so the dog has a visual as well as audio. A little nick of the ecollar reminds him I can reach out and touch him no matter how far off he is, or what else he'd rather be doing.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:03 pm

crackerd wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:51 pm
polmaise wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm
Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm
I use the command in the field when I'm sure the dog knows what is expected. If he ignores me, I use the e collar .
Whilst your Singing may be of virtue, if the dog knows what is expected ,then why would it ignore you ? ,
I was just watching a great film 'A few Good Men' ..and just thought of a 'Code Red' .
Dunno, Robt., but back when you were in Her Majesty's Service, and posted to our neck of the empire, I gotta think (and Sharon might agree) that the best birddog trialing "song" ever came along even if the narration weren't necessarily "sangin'," nor "Code Red," but was coded just right nevertheless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3VN54M1OXA

MG
Lol . The 'Trans Can' or Highway 1 for some . Medicine Hat and BATUS I Loved on both visits .
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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Sharon » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:09 pm

"or Hup, Bud! when I want a sharp turn or a 180." quote Shags

Now that is a good idea.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by crackerd » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:14 pm

Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:09 pm
"or Hup, Bud! when I want a sharp turn or a 180." quote Shags

Now that is a good idea.
Now that is sangin' blasphemy to the spaniel choir, Sharon - "Hup, Bud!" meaning Sit your derriere down this instant and don't budge an inch.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:20 pm

Joe3232 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:26 pm
Any tips for how to teach your dog to turn or "handle" in the field? Thanks
Can't say for sure !! ?
But if the dawg ain't looking at you ,then you can't teach it to be handled in any field . ..Little ways along you can dance or sing ,or holler all you want in any language.
guess those catskills and high grass with the dog out of sight is probably not the best place to start ...joe.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:26 pm

crackerd wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:14 pm
Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:09 pm
"or Hup, Bud! when I want a sharp turn or a 180." quote Shags

Now that is a good idea.
Now that is sangin' blasphemy to the spaniel choir, Sharon - "Hup, Bud!" meaning Sit your derriere down this instant and don't budge an inch.

MG
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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Sharon » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:30 pm

Ah , you're right Crackerd! Sorry. Of course there are no spaniels in the pointing dog trials. :)

(That dog looks mad.)
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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by shags » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:31 pm

polmaise wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:20 pm
Joe3232 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:26 pm
Any tips for how to teach your dog to turn or "handle" in the field? Thanks
Can't say for sure !! ?
But if the dawg ain't looking at you ,then you can't teach it to be handled in any field . ..Little ways along you can dance or sing ,or holler all you want in any language.
guess those catskills and high grass with the dog out of sight is probably not the best place to start ...joe.

Do you want your dog lookin for you or lookin for birds? What if his vision ain't what it twas? Doggles with corrective lenses?
You all over there need to tune up those pipes and SANG! :D

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by shags » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:32 pm

Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:30 pm
Ah , you're right! Sorry. Of course there are no spaniels in the pointing dog trials. :)

(That dog looks mad.)
Cuz Robert emptied that bottle, I betcha.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:37 pm

shags wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:32 pm
Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:30 pm
Ah , you're right! Sorry. Of course there are no spaniels in the pointing dog trials. :)

(That dog looks mad.)
Cuz Robert emptied that bottle, I betcha.
:mrgreen:
lol. with no command :lol:

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:49 pm

polmaise wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm
Sharon wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:59 pm
I use the command in the field when I'm sure the dog knows what is expected. If he ignores me, I use the e collar .
Whilst your Singing may be of virtue, if the dog knows what is expected ,then why would it ignore you ? ,
I was just watching a great film 'A few Good Men' ..and just thought of a 'Code Red' .
Singing isnt about commanding the dog. Singing is about letting the dog know where you are and letting the dog think for itself. Something most people these days cant or dont want to do.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:12 pm

Pheasant really appreciate the handler singing to a dog.

I prefer a dog to work to my commands so I have control over the dog.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Sharon » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:01 pm

"Singing isn't about commanding the dog. Singing is about letting the dog know where you are and letting the dog think for itself. Something most people these days can't or don't want to do." quote RyanDoolittle

Good definition of the use of "singing" Ryan. Personally, I still prefer a command, but understand exactly what you are saying.
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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Garrison » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:46 pm

In some mountain quail habitat I hunt sometimes you can’t see 10 feet in front of you but the dogs can get through it awfully quick because it is more open towards the floor. Even with a gps on I put a bell on and sing to them when they get past bell range so they can keep their bearing and keep hunting. Never found a need to sing in more open country, they know where I am or it is time to listen and make a turn.

Like others I teach a hup command to change their direction, I also road them from my mountain bike and teach a left turn and right turn. Roading on the bike is a good way to reinforce whoa, slowwwww, left, right and ignore the dang rabbits.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:58 pm

Garrison wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:46 pm
Roading on the bike is a good way to reinforce whoa, slowwwww, left, right and ignore the dang rabbits.
I want and love the dog to 'Find' the rabbits ,and dang be that dog if it misses one , whilst questing within range of my gun or different cover types we encounter !! ...
Roading on a bike is good for fitness training ...except in heat of course ..Oh, and every other possible scenario you could possibly conceive ..for 'How to teach Turning' !! .. :roll: :mrgreen:

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Garrison » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:16 pm

polmaise wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:58 pm
Garrison wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:46 pm
Roading on the bike is a good way to reinforce whoa, slowwwww, left, right and ignore the dang rabbits.
I want and love the dog to 'Find' the rabbits ,and dang be that dog if it misses one , whilst questing within range of my gun or different cover types we encounter !! ...
Roading on a bike is good for fitness training ...except in heat of course ..Oh, and every other possible scenario you could possibly conceive ..for 'How to teach Turning' !! .. :roll: :mrgreen:

We are lousy with them in my area, they are a real pain in the butt. Six or seven of them are out in my front lawn chewing it down to nothing, daily! If we didn’t learn to leave them be, we would never get anywhere. On a five mile ride in the early morning or late afternoon there will be at least 60-70 darting across the dirt roads in front of us.

If you tried to choke down one of these flea infested sage brush rats, you may have a different expectation for what is desirable behavior.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:37 pm

Garrison wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:16 pm
polmaise wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:58 pm
Garrison wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:46 pm
Roading on the bike is a good way to reinforce whoa, slowwwww, left, right and ignore the dang rabbits.
I want and love the dog to 'Find' the rabbits ,and dang be that dog if it misses one , whilst questing within range of my gun or different cover types we encounter !! ...
Roading on a bike is good for fitness training ...except in heat of course ..Oh, and every other possible scenario you could possibly conceive ..for 'How to teach Turning' !! .. :roll: :mrgreen:

We are lousy with them in my area, they are a real pain in the butt. Six or seven of them are out in my front lawn chewing it down to nothing, daily! If we didn’t learn to leave them be, we would never get anywhere. On a five mile ride in the early morning or late afternoon there will be at least 60-70 darting across the dirt roads in front of us.

If you tried to choke down one of these flea infested sage brush rats, you may have a different expectation for what is desirable behavior.
Spaniel and Pointing dog heaven !! You have there .Especially if You want to train a dog to turn :wink:
Saves all that stuff with two fella's flapping a bird , or $50 dollars in diesel to have a pup run around a prairie and do standing still with no words or god forbid Sharon's singing the latest rendition of 'ABBA' :lol:

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Garrison » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:23 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by averageguy » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:34 pm

I use the direction I am walking and the tone on the ecollar to manage the direction my dog is hunting in.

But I will also note I do not always choose to manage their search, as some hunting situations are best left to the dog and I then follow the dog to the birds. The birds and terrain being hunted factor in a great deal as to how much handling I might do on any given drop. I am mostly hands off while my dog is hunting.

I develop my puppies to hunt in front of me and pay some attention to my direction from an early age. Part of that development includes me walking the pup towards likely areas holding game. With some experience and a decent population of wild game it is pretty easy to predict where some quail or pheasants might be found. Pups start thinking maybe I am worth paying attention to when I walk towards a likely cover and pretty soon they get there ahead of me.

Meanwhile I am teaching recall starting first with my voice and check cord. Then we overlay the collar and tone button as also meaning the same recall command (I use Come, most use Here). Once I have overlaid the ecollar tone I can use it to steer the dog. When I want the dog to come all the way into me, I stand still in one spot when I issue the tone and do not move when the dog appears from cover coming towards me as I have commanded it to do. If instead I just wanted the dog to change its direction I stop the tone when the dog appears and walk deliberately in the new direction I want to hunt in. The dog will become conditioned to understand the difference in my body language, and hunt to the front of the direction I am walking or come all the way into me if I stand still. This has some similarities to what I hear Mr Higgins describing.

Now I have a way to silently handle my dog while hunting. Which I really like.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:29 pm

averageguy wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:34 pm
I use the direction I am walking and the tone on the ecollar to manage the direction my dog is hunting in.

But I will also note I do not always choose to manage their search, as some hunting situations are best left to the dog and I then follow the dog to the birds. The birds and terrain being hunted factor in a great deal as to how much handling I might do on any given drop. I am mostly hands off while my dog is hunting.

I develop my puppies to hunt in front of me and pay some attention to my direction from an early age. Part of that development includes me walking the pup towards likely areas holding game. With some experience and a decent population of wild game it is pretty easy to predict where some quail or pheasants might be found. Pups start thinking maybe I am worth paying attention to when I walk towards a likely cover and pretty soon they get there ahead of me.

Meanwhile I am teaching recall starting first with my voice and check cord. Then we overlay the collar and tone button as also meaning the same recall command (I use Come, most use Here). Once I have overlaid the ecollar tone I can use it to steer the dog. When I want the dog to come all the way into me, I stand still in one spot when I issue the tone and do not move when the dog appears from cover coming towards me as I have commanded it to do. If instead I just wanted the dog to change its direction I stop the tone when the dog appears and walk deliberately in the new direction I want to hunt in. The dog will become conditioned to understand the difference in my body language, and hunt to the front of the direction I am walking or come all the way into me if I stand still. This has some similarities to what I hear Mr Higgins describing.

Now I have a way to silently handle my dog while hunting. Which I really like.
LOL.
Correct me If I am wrong Sir'? Whilst I mostly read your posts with reverence,until now.
I'll recap - Voice command- E-collar-similarities.

It's stuff like this that is posted in open forum that just really screws some folk up ..perhaps? The comments are so remote from the quoted individuals description in the video on this thread .Mr ' exclaimed a unique technique , exclusive to all others with ...wait for it ? ...No words , no sounds no e-collar ? ...I'll leave my waistcoat on the hinge of the gate , silently with no commands is not what is being marketed, but you are welcome to buy it.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by averageguy » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:44 pm

My use of body language to signal to the dog whether I want it come all the way in or instead work to the front in the direction I am walking is where I saw similarities. My use of the ecollar is for the tone not the stimulation as long as the dog does not blow me off when I am indicating it needs to come all the way in.

Not seeing this as likely to derail anyone's training attempts.

Me thinks thou WAY OVERREACTED, Robert. Seems like a no harm no foul sort of deal in my World. But if your hair is on fire, quick dump your beer over your head and put it out.

I do not think any of the GWP pups I have trained would ever handle as Mr Higgins describes by simply attempting to train/condition them via walking in silence alone.

I do use a similar approach to teach my young puppies I might be worth paying attention to as I consistently head towards some game holding cover as I described, which would also seem to have some similarity to what Mr Higgins describes.

As with most of Mr Higgins posts I think there must be considerably more going on than is claimed in the video or he is working with far different dogs than I have worked with on the whole ...

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:58 pm

averageguy wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:44 pm
My use of body language to signal to the dog whether I want it come all the way in or instead work to the front in the direction I am walking is where I saw similarities. My use of the ecollar is for the tone not the stimulation as long as the dog does not blow me off when I am indicating it needs to come all the way in.

Not seeing this as likely to derail anyone's training attempts.

Me thinks thou WAY OVERREACTED, Robert.
Whilst one may think , another is learning how to over react , these ones are sheeple following not the shepherd, just what the shepherd said.
So my Grandad said, so don't quote me ..I'm just going with the flow , and I Know nothing about dogs . I'm a people coach :mrgreen:

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by averageguy » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:06 pm

Lost me there.

Anyone looking for training advice on the internet had best have an ability to sort through such things.

I never have intentions of misleading anyone, nor do I ever doubt your ability to train a dog to high standard.

If the OP finds value in my post great, and its fine if not the case. Free advice and all that ...

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Sharon » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:41 pm

You make a tremendous contribution here and have helped many. Thank you.
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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:46 pm

I do as Higgins says he does and always have done. I thought everyone ,to some extent, trained dogs to quarter using body language ….but it only works if cover is sparse enough for you and the dog to see each other -- and if the dog happens to look in your direction with some regularity .

For those times when a dog cannot easily see me or does not look back to me, I train all my pups …..labs, cocker spaniels, springer spaniels, brittanies and GSP's to turn to whistle. Two little "pips" on the whistle and they turn , a repeat of the two pips means come all the way back to me.

I spend a lot of time conditioning pups to do this and the conditioning starts as soon as I get the pup at whatever age it is. It always works and no e-collar is necessary although I have quite often been sorely tempted to use one when a bolshie pup tells me where to stick my whistle ! :lol:

A lot of my pointing dog work is done among cover .....trees , bushes , reeds. I don't think I could work a dog among that stuff without making "noise." So ... I blow two pips on the whistle from time to time....if nothing else it lets the pup/dog know where I am ....it makes me easier to find.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:01 pm

Thanks for the video Mr. Higgins.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by cjhills » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:28 am

In all my years, dogs and miles of hunting over dogs of all kinds I have never seen the need to pattern a dog. I have always believed dogsare gifted with ability that made them a lot better at bird finding the I am. I also believe they have some inborn ability to track their hunting partners. Experienced dogs running at several hundred yards will turn with you when you turn. The best example is Sharptail and Hun hunting in the huge short grass prairies. We start in the morning and walk until dark. We set the general direction. The dog stays with us and hunts the wind and obstacles. The dogs cover the ground at whatever distance the find comfortable. They always know where we are and would come in when called if necessary......Cj

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:31 pm

cjhills wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:28 am
In all my years, dogs and miles of hunting over dogs of all kinds I have never seen the need to pattern a dog. I have always believed dogsare gifted with ability that made them a lot better at bird finding the I am. I also believe they have some inborn ability to track their hunting partners. Experienced dogs running at several hundred yards will turn with you when you turn. The best example is Sharptail and Hun hunting in the huge short grass prairies. We start in the morning and walk until dark. We set the general direction. The dog stays with us and hunts the wind and obstacles. The dogs cover the ground at whatever distance the find comfortable. They always know where we are and would come in when called if necessary......Cj
Yea, but you could video it and give it a bespoke name like 'cj hills hunting technique' ? :)

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:43 pm

Trekmoor wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:46 pm
I do as Higgins says he does and always have done. I thought everyone ,to some extent, trained dogs to quarter using body language ….
Bill T.
Not unique then ?
Knowing that you are about 150 years old , I would say it's pretty much 'Old Hat' ? :lol:

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Featherfinder
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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:36 pm

Trekmoor/Polmaise, we need to extrapolate that flushers and pointing dogs are diverse in how they apply themselves.
The dog in Mr. Higgin's video did a nice job minus the hacking, toot tooting, arms flailing, etc.
It's all too rare whatever name you prefer to call it.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:11 am

I have no complaints about the dog in Mr. Higgin's video. It worked fine and showed it is "linked" to it's owner.

I am pretty sure that any of my HPR's would have worked in a very similar manner on flattish ground with minimal cover such as the ground in the video. I would probably not have needed to whistle turn my dogs or give arm signals either.....my dogs also worked to the direction my body was facing as I walked …..when they could see it.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:38 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:11 am
I have no complaints about the dog in Mr. Higgin's video. It worked fine and showed it is "linked" to it's owner.

I am pretty sure that any of my HPR's would have worked in a very similar manner on flattish ground with minimal cover such as the ground in the video. I would probably not have needed to whistle turn my dogs or give arm signals either.....my dogs also worked to the direction my body was facing as I walked …..when they could see it.

Bill T.
I agree .....You could even put your hands behind your back and suck on a whistle that makes no noise ,but delivers pure nectar :lol: :D

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by cjhills » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:50 pm

polmaise wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:31 pm
cjhills wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:28 am
In all my years, dogs and miles of hunting over dogs of all kinds I have never seen the need to pattern a dog. I have always believed dogsare gifted with ability that made them a lot better at bird finding the I am. I also believe they have some inborn ability to track their hunting partners. Experienced dogs running at several hundred yards will turn with you when you turn. The best example is Sharptail and Hun hunting in the huge short grass prairies. We start in the morning and walk until dark. We set the general direction. The dog stays with us and hunts the wind and obstacles. The dogs cover the ground at whatever distance the find comfortable. They always know where we are and would come in when called if necessary......Cj
Yea, but you could video it and give it a bespoke name like 'cj hills hunting technique' ? :)
Polmaise;
Every Time I respond to your posts We get deleted.
I suppose I could do that. but selling somebody on the concept that a dog is born knowing how to hunt is not what most trainers would want me
to do........Cj

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:57 pm

cjhills wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:50 pm
polmaise wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:31 pm
cjhills wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:28 am
In all my years, dogs and miles of hunting over dogs of all kinds I have never seen the need to pattern a dog. I have always believed dogsare gifted with ability that made them a lot better at bird finding the I am. I also believe they have some inborn ability to track their hunting partners. Experienced dogs running at several hundred yards will turn with you when you turn. The best example is Sharptail and Hun hunting in the huge short grass prairies. We start in the morning and walk until dark. We set the general direction. The dog stays with us and hunts the wind and obstacles. The dogs cover the ground at whatever distance the find comfortable. They always know where we are and would come in when called if necessary......Cj
Yea, but you could video it and give it a bespoke name like 'cj hills hunting technique' ? :)
Polmaise;
Every Time I respond to your posts We get deleted.
I suppose I could do that. but selling somebody on the concept that a dog is born knowing how to hunt is not what most trainers would want me
to do........Cj
Same here ! We may be on a hit list ? I'll screen shot it for prosperity :wink:

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Joe3232 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:18 pm

thank you everyone. cant say i followed all this dialogue but appreciate the info (and video). Best, Joe

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:24 pm

Forgive me Bill. But is an HPR not a retriever? I reviewed Mr. Higgin's video. I believe he demonstrated a pointer.

Mr. Higgins, Arthur Schopenhauer wrote that truth passes through three stages. They are:
Firstly, it is ridiculed. Secondly, it is violently opposed. Thirdly, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Congratulations on nailing all 3 Sir!

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:12 am

An "HPR" is what we call the "versatiles." H - Hunt ….P -Point ….R- Retrieve. So yes, an HPR is a retriever but what that has to do with the video I don't know.

I am not criticising the dog work at all . I am only questioning in what way it represents anything new ? If it is new to you then I am pleased you got the chance to learn from it but the method , if it could be called that, is definitely not new......unless I am missing something or failing to understand something ?

In Scotland the spaniel trial lads used to do what they called "The Swank." I adapted it a little bit to make it suitable for HPR use in field trials. The Swank is simply walking along with your hands folded behind your back and your whistle hanging on your chest as your dog hunts while you do your best to look totally nonchalant about how well your dog is working ! :lol:

It is supposed to demonstrate to the judges that your dog is so well trained it doesn't need to be whistled or hand signalled (anyone stupid enough to give any kind of vocal command to a dog as it hunts will almost certainly be chucked out of the trial.) The Swank in spaniel trials was also supposed to demoralise the other competitor by showing him your complete control and utter confidence in how good your dog is.

Anyway, it took a bit of doing over rough ground and I soon stopped doing it but The Swank is, as far as I can see, a version of the "method" shown in the video ?

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by averageguy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:43 am

The OP said he was confused so I'll repeat for his benefit.

There are numerous hunting situations where I follow the dog vs the dog taking all its leads from me. It is the dog's job to find birds and with experience it knows a lot about where and how to do that.

I use trained ecollar tone AND body language to influence where my dog hunts when that is what our situation benefits from. The concept of using body language to influence how a dog handles is valid and common, but it is not the only method employed to shape the dog to that end point.

I have experienced first hand numerous dogs (some I owned, some others owned) which were never going to be trained to handle as presented in Mr Higgins Video SOLELY by "walking".

Suggesting to first time handlers on a public forum that walking in silence, turning, speeding up or slowing down is ALL that will be needed to TRAIN their dogs is my view, setting them up for failure and frustration.

Handling an already trained dog is different than how the dog was trained in the first place and that reality seems to be getting muddled in this thread.

The dog in Mr Higgins video is already trained. The progression of how it was trained is not shown (voice over aside). And it is only one dog. There are absolutely lines of dogs you will never train to handle in that fashion solely by walking in silence.

I would have lost every dog I have ever owned had I attempted to train them to handle solely by walking in silence.

I use the methods I touched on briefly in my prior post to train my dogs. Once they are trained we hunt in silence but for gunfire and praise on retrieves.

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Re: How to teach "turning"?

Post by Sharon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:55 am

Joe3232 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:18 pm
thank you everyone. cant say i followed all this dialogue but appreciate the info (and video). Best, Joe
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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