Problems with come/here

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BigK75
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Problems with come/here

Post by BigK75 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:43 am

Hey Guys,

I need some more advice. My Brittany is now 5 months old and he really struggling with Come. I have tried everything including:
1. Giving treats (not interested)
2. Using a check chord. Never comes the first time I say come. Second time I have to reel him in but he is trying to go sideways. This has shown no improvement.
3. Using a whistle (he completely ignores this about 50% of the time)

He has an eCollar but I have yet to use that on him because I think he is too young. I am out of ideas on what else to do. I am also super frustrated every time I come home from off leash walks. Not sure what else to do. Anyone have any ideas what else I can try?

Thanks,

Claude

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by shags » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:22 am

1 Not big deal. In fact, if my dog were more interested in cookies than hunting, I'd be disappointed.

2 Give only one command and enforce it. Two commands leads to three, leads to four, etc. Give the cc a good snap or jerk to get the dog moving.

3 Not too young for ecollar work on recall. How old is too old enough to get hit by a car or have another disaster because he ignores recall commands? Condition the dog to the collar by overlaying it when you use the cc ( when the dog is pretty consistent on the cc). It would go "Fido, come!" followed quickly by jerk on the cc and very quickly followed by ecollar stim. Use the lowest stim that results in reaction by dog. Example, for one of my dogs that's a 1, for the other it's 2.

Good luck, working with stubborn little boneheads can be a challenge but it's really rewarding in the end :wink:

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:32 am

Claude -

I agree completely with Shags on this.

Come is NOT optional and come means "RIGHT NOW!"

Anything less and..."you ain't got it yet". The dog needs to stop what it is doing, hightail it to you...on the run and stop right in front of you, or you have more work to do.

My wife and I start with a hungry puppy and treats. Two fairly long checkcords with each of us opposite the other with puppy more or less in the middle. One sharp "come" and one pop with the checkcord... and if the dog does not instantly run to the one who called...it gets reeled in, rather unceremoniously. Not rough, but steady. If the pup digs in and resists...DRAG. You need to win this battle... First time...EVERY TIME.

Then, when it is standing in front of the caller, a pat on the flank and a puppy treat. After a few seconds, the other person issues a sharp "come" and as before, if the dog does not instantly respond, it gets reeled in, stood up, stroked and given a pat on the flank. With a 5 month old puppy, it should not take too many repetitions before the pup understands what happens when it does what is commanded and what happens when it refuses.

You need to enforce it until the dog does it quickly and cleanly. A session should last about 10 minutes or so with such a young dog. 10-20 repetitions per session is pretty typical.

Two to three sessions a day is not too much. I would not worry about the e-collar yet. Enforce and ingrain the response with a check cord first. The e-collar is NOT(IMO) an alternate for a check cord. It is (again, IMO) a tool that can be used to remind the dog that the rules Ain't changed... once the correct behavior has been ingrained via the check cord.

Your youngster is testing you. Patience, persistence and insistence. If the refusals continue, I would consider using a pinch or prong collar on the end of each check cord to "heighten their objectivity".

You need to win this one.

RayG

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by Sharon » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:49 pm

so well said by all 3 ! Every new dog owner-to -be should save these posts.
For me saying "come " and enforcing starts at 8 weeks. I never say "come" unless I'm going to get up and get pup if he/she doesn't come. This is true for all commands; don't give the command if you aren't going to follow through.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by setterpoint » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:05 am

hears something if you havent tried yet, let the dog out and run for some time no commands just fun time for the dog
when the dog starts getting a little tired then call the dog in the point is a tired dog will comply better than a excited dog mayby you just got out of the kennel or house with enough reps, the dog learns what come or hear means
i use this in all my training when, as i said i think the dog comply better this way,

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by Steve007 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:42 am

I like the comprehensiveness and specificity of Ray's post, and the emphasis on repetitive training without an e-collar, though using a pinch collar can be useful. There is a phrase in obedience training that you work until the dog is perfect on an exercise .. plus one more month. An e-collar for this critical exercise is the wrong way to go until the dog is perfect without it. And after all, the dog is five months old. Perfection is difficult to attain at that age, but repetition and tenacity will win in the end.

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:03 am

setterpoint wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:05 am
hears something if you havent tried yet, let the dog out and run for some time no commands just fun time for the dog
when the dog starts getting a little tired then call the dog in the point is a tired dog will comply better than a excited dog mayby you just got out of the kennel or house with enough reps, the dog learns what come or hear means
i use this in all my training when, as i said i think the dog comply better this way,
Heck YES. Giving a command that the dog WANTS to do anyway is a surefire winner. Overlaying a command when the dog is doing what you are commanding anyway, already... is a surefire winner as well.

When I lived in NJ, I would take a dog down to Colliers Mills WMA in the summer. It is mostly sand and scrub with minimal shade and can be bliseringly hot. I would carry plenty of water, but the places I ran the dog had zero water. After about five minutes I would call the dog in and give it a squirt or two of water and send it out again. A couple minutes and another call-in for a squirt or two. If the dog did not come in when I called...it obviously didn't get a drink. If the dog came in on its own for a drink...I sent it out without water and then a few seconds later called it back in. By the end of the run, the dog was coming in to me, double time, like it was their job, just as soon as I called.

They figured figured out real quick that I was the only thing keeping them from dying of thirst....or so they thought, which was precisely what I had in mind. Being a dog's savior tends to get them to pay attention to you, even when they would rather be doing something else.

RayG

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by averageguy » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:48 pm

Buy and follow the instruction in the Perfect Here video.

https://www.perfectionkennel.com/order-dvds.html

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by polmaise » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:36 pm

Application of information can be difficult to implement.
'Allyson' best described it in text form.


‘"Come’ is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

At some point in time, usually from around 6 – 10 months, depending on the individual, “Velcro” dog will morph into “Bog off” dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

How and when do I start with a puppy?

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.
By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:
• Come from across the room.
• Come from out of sight
• Come no matter who calls
• Come even if you are busy doing something else
• Come even if you are asleep.
• Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
• Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

• Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
• Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
• If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
• Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
• Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the “value” of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog’s life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

What about an older or rescue dog?

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the day’s food ration up into small bags (between10 – 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying “too bad” and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your “helper” simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it’s getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog’s name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours." quote Alyson

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by CDN_Cocker » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:33 pm

BigK75:

Are you worth coming to? Sounds like you haven't created value in yourself in the dog's eyes. Get excited and exuberant. Be the guy everyone wants to be around.
Cass
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by birddogger2 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:41 am

Polmaise -

Your post was an absolute tutorial on the subject. Very thorough and complete.

I typically go about the task somewhat differently, but your post gave me several things to think about doing things differently. Your experience and perspective is much appreciated. Always something to learn.

I thank you sir.

RayG

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by Fun dog » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:44 pm

Get the perfect Here from Perfection Kennel. It did wonders for my pup that would only come when she felt like it. She now comes instantly.

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by polmaise » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:53 pm

Fun dog wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:44 pm
Get the perfect Here from Perfection Kennel. It did wonders for my pup that would only come when she felt like it. She now comes instantly.
I'm sure it did. I'm sure it works for some others ?
How many does it Not work for ?
Not saying it or any other' works or not ...just going by failure ratio and the amount of requests over the years. :?:

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by cjhills » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:31 pm

Not to worry. Over here we just crank up the ecollar. The dog learns to come when the juice is on. He soon learns to ignore the command. But we still have the juice........Cj

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by crackerd » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:23 am

cjhills wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:31 pm
Not to worry. Over here we just crank up the ecollar. The dog learns to come when the juice is on. He soon learns to ignore the command. But we still have the juice........Cj
Is that the AC/DC Troglodyte recall program you're describing? Polmaise knows that ain't quite the protocol in the more, shall we say, refined training quarters "over here."

MG

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by Timewise65 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:39 am

A lot of good information here, some I think real good, some not so much!

Your dog is still a baby, at seven months he is like a 3-4 year old kid! It takes tons of patients on your side right now. So keep it fun and keep it short, as his attention span is short.
As others have said be animated and happy while training. When my pup returns to me on a recall, I first give him all kinds of love, rubbing his sides, scratching his belly, whatever he likes best. They a treat and do it again...it is a fun game. In time the love will be all he needs for reward...!

Every dog likes treats, you just have to find the right one. Have you tried baked chicken or cooked liver? If not please do...

Finally, and most important, the dog must be trained to be on the ecollar. Never put an ecollar on a dog if he has not been through the collar training process. Never use a collar to teach a dog a command! If the dog does not clearly already understand the command, using the collar will be a problem. Training the collar to the dog, teaches the dog that he has the power to 'stop' the ecollar by complying with the command he has been taught. When used correctly, the collar reinforces a command the dog already knows.

That's my 2cents worth...Good luck

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by averageguy » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:31 pm

polmaise wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:53 pm
Fun dog wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:44 pm
Get the perfect Here from Perfection Kennel. It did wonders for my pup that would only come when she felt like it. She now comes instantly.
I'm sure it did. I'm sure it works for some others ?
How many does it Not work for ?
Not saying it or any other' works or not ...just going by failure ratio and the amount of requests over the years. :?:
Perfection Kennel's system works for literally thousands of dogs.

A few weeks ago I was at Perfection Kennel when a rescue EP bolted while a kennel helper was loading the dog into a trailer. The dog had been found running loose on a WMA and likely it was this type of behavior that lead to its being alone and in need of rescue in the first place. They had to chase the dog around on a 4 wheeler for awhile to get ahold of it.

Saw the dog maybe a couple of weeks later and it was recalling perfectly to Jon. He has a really good system and his DVD does an excellent job of teaching it so others can produce similar results.

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by cjhills » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:43 pm

crackerd wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:23 am
cjhills wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:31 pm
Not to worry. Over here we just crank up the ecollar. The dog learns to come when the juice is on. He soon learns to ignore the command. But we still have the juice........Cj
Is that the AC/DC Troglodyte recall program you're describing? Polmaise knows that ain't quite the protocol in the more, shall we say, refined training quarters "over here."

MG
DC only. It takes to long of a long cord to use AC.........Cj

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by Sharon » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:56 pm

I often recommend the Perfect Start Perfect Finish videos, because I've seen them help a lot of people.
Many have also found the Higgins method , often posted on this forum, to be of great help.
However, that is not the subject of this thread.
Let's try to stick to helping the original poster with his plea for help.
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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by averageguy » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:59 pm

Lost me there Sharon.

I recommended The Perfect Here DVD which is 100% on the mark with the subject. Same thing that Fun Dog recommended and Polmaise responded to.

Which I then responded to as to the system's demonstrated effectiveness in training recall. Also 100% on subject.

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by Sharon » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:40 pm

I had no problem at all with your post.
My point was to several members to make sure our goal is to help the original questioner .
Often a newer member ( as the original OP is) will ask a simple question and end up getting a PHD version of an answer + a long argument. Next thing you know the new member is gone.
One of my job's on here is to make sure new members feel not only welcomed , but helped.
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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by veggie » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:40 am

I think this is very dependant on the dog. Some dogs, if not trained properly to begin with, develops bad habits. The only true success I've had removing bad habits is through aversive training. If your dog knows recall, it is time to expect the dog to come to you when the command is given. If the dog totally ignores a known command (which you are certain of), it is okay to grab it and ruff it up a little.

For the recall issue, if command is ignored fully, I would say NO, get the dog and put him back where he was called from, then do the recall again. The amount of ruffing up is decided by the dog, he will tell you when it was enough.

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by cjhills » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:53 am

The basic problem with the above post is that through the years we have bred softer dogs and better training. I have seen many dogs ruined by tough trainers. Roughing a dog up has no place in any dog training program especially recall. Will he come to you to get his beating? Would you ?
Try training instead of force. It is always the better approach......Cj

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Re: Problems with come/here

Post by polmaise » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:27 am

Compliance over any mammal over a period of time consistently ,gets results .It may or may not be the preferred method of any ,or some ,or even a new member on here,the other members are in the dark when limited information is posted by the originator.
Some would think a simple task/command to another mammal like 'Come/here' would be simple and easy to convey from one to the other?..It's not! ,when application in real life is presented. (Hope this doesn't sound like a PHD type response)
If the intention of the board is to gain an increase number of members by delivering information that any new member wants to hear from other members that can/could be found by a simple google search from a myriad of sources ,or even a search on here ,then that sure will increase the numbers of those who have the same opinion(s)
I agree with cj.. in respect of re-call, in any conditioning/training or method used for what is asked by the OP. Compliance or force in this part/process to achieve the desired action requested to help the 'new member' or any ..would/could result in any new member or any' receiving the advice they wanted to hear . (Not seen a reply to the advice offered by our learned friends,from the OP?)
If Private conversation has been used then perhaps that is where it should be,and the open forum for peckers to convince their world(s) :lol:

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