Recall with ecollar question

Post Reply
BigK75
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:38 pm

Recall with ecollar question

Post by BigK75 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:30 pm

Hey Guys,

I had a quick question about recall using ecollar. I have seen a bunch of videos online and it really varies on what people do. Standing Stone Kennel teaches to turn on the collar (continuous) until the dog comes to you. Other videos shows a nick to have the dog come and others show continuous until the dog starts coming then turning off. Which is the right method. Anyhow have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Claude

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 8547
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by Sharon » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:47 pm

All I can say is that I have never used continuous. I initially use a check cord ( so the dog knows what you are asking, then transition to a check cord pull + a quick e collar correction. At the most, I've had to use an e collar correction twice in a row. Essential the e collar correction be at the right level for each dog.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2598
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by shags » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:32 pm

I also overlay the cc with the ecollar. Command, quick tug, nick, reel him in with praise. One command only, you don't want the dog to learn that you only mean business after several commands. In the field, command, and nick if he ignores. Use the lowest setting that gets a reaction. My dogs get #1 or #2 on my TT. '

averageguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by averageguy » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:42 pm

The Perfect Here DVD from Perfection Kennel will teach you everything you need to know to train any dog you come across to recall.

The short of it is first teach the Here command using a check cord, then overlay the ecollar using continuous stimulation which starts the moment you give the command and ends the moment the dog makes eye contact and is coming directly to you. You have to be ready to stimulate and say Here again when the dog veers off or does a fly by instead of standing touching your leg.

birddogger2
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:35 pm

BigK -

I do it essentially the same way as Sharon and Shags. I "teach" the here or come command with the checkcord using short sharp tugs and if that does not get the response...I reel the dog in, hand over hand. After the checkcord lesson is well learned, I overlay the command with a verbal cue, and a simultaneous quick tug and low level nick. I eventually drop the quick tug and continue with the low level nick.

The only time I use continuous, is if the dog has made a conscious decision to "blow me off". The dogs I like to work with are highly independent by their nature, are very single-minded about finding game and have a definite tendency to "ignore", when they are actively hunting. Then the dog gets and eight second high hard one. A continuous stim at a significantly higher stim level than it is used to. If I normally use a 2, the dog will get a 4 or a 5 for the full eight seconds. I WANT it to be extremely uncomfortable for the dog, so they don't try it again. More often than not...the high level correction will cause a dog to freeze in place and you will then have to go and get the dog and bring it back to where you were(more or less) when you issued the command.

When this happens I always set the dog up, back where it should have been if it had listened in the first place, then step off a few paces and give the command again. If it hesitates, I won't use the e-collar, but will scrunch down open my arms and "invite" the dog. When the dog comes to me...and it always does...I give it some praise(a pat on the flank is usually enough) and then send it on its way again. As it starts to "reach out" again, I will repeat the call in command and issue a low level nick. Never had a dog ignore me on that one. I have gotten a few dirty looks though. :lol:

I have to say that both ways, continuous or nick, will work if done correctly and consistently, with low levels of stim. If the dog appears confused, or hesitant, it probably is, and you need to back up and make the correct choice clearer to the dog, usually(with my method) via repetition of the checkcord overlay. Be careful with e-collars. They are a GREAT tool, but very easy to use improperly, especially if the dog is trying your patience.

Some dogs are far more sensitive than others and use of too much "force" can set your training back.

One of these days, I will have to watch the Perfection Kennel DVD's. Always something to learn.

RayG

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4638
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:56 pm

People do it both ways but continuous for recall has never made and sense to me. Using continuous, the dog can not win. Even when they obey the command and come, they are being stimulated. I like the nick. Here, Nick Here! Keep alternating between voice and juice. If the dog is coming on it's own after the first Here, Nick, don't correct again. The dog has complied and learned that once he obeys a command, he will no longer get and unwarranted correction. It results in happier dogs that respond faster to commands. IMO.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2315
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by cjhills » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:40 pm

Bigk 75
The thing you need to be very careful not to do is training the dog to respond only to the ecollar. A good share of the dogs I see in the field are only obeying the stim. If you give the command and stim before he has a chance to respond he will soon learn to only respond to the stim. Same if you wait to long. Make sure he has a good understanding of the here command pre ecollar use. Vary the amount of response time he gets. Get him doing well on a check cord and understanding in the yard before going to the field.
I don't use nick. I like low settings and I find nick ineffective. Continuous does not mean 8 seconds. You can do short bursts of the length you need...Cj

averageguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by averageguy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:30 am

BigK75,

I started my response with the advice to buy and follow the Perfect Here DVD because of exactly what has followed in this thread. Folks Mis-reading and not enough time to type the whole system.

That approach uses continuous stimulation but you are not holding the button down the whole time as some responses here mis-interrupt. As I posted, you first teach the Here command with a check cord, then you use the lowest level continuous stimulation the dog indicates it can feel. You give the stimulation at the same time you give the already trained command and you stop it the moment the dog complies with the command. You are NOT stimulating the dog all the way to you as long as the dog is making eye contact and coming straight to you. The approach is completely fair to the dog and teaches the dog, they are in control. Swift compliance turns off the stimulation. Dis-obedience turns it on.

The level of stimulation increases with distraction and the dog's actions indicate it is needed.

Best that you buy and follow the DVD if you are going to go down this road. It is very detailed and complete and uses multiple dogs being trained while on camera. The whole PK system is based on continuous stimulation and good timing on when it is started and stopped. The dog can absolutely turn it off when it complies, that is the whole basis of the system. I know it works because I have used it successfully for multiple dogs including running in high level hunt tests while wearing no ecollar. Key is train with complete consistency so the dog never knows any other way.

BigK75
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:38 pm

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by BigK75 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:42 am

Decided to order the "Perfect Start" DVD based on so many suggestions here.

My dog is good on recall (because I used some of the suggestions from another thread) especially with the ecollar when there is no birds or other distractions (like other bird dogs). As soon as you add those to the mix he is a hit and miss. At that point even using the collar until he yelps does not seem to help. He is 6.5 months though so maybe I am expecting too much.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2315
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by cjhills » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:33 am

There is no reason a 6 month old dog can not have a reliable recall. It does take repetitions and time. You also need some distractions in your training.
I don't like to the dog yelping but sometimes it works.
Dogs are place oriented and they need to learn a command in multiple locations to be reliable. Until the dog has been trained in different situations and distraction levels, it is unrealistic to expect him to obey every time. The more time you can spend in the field with the dog the better you will be able to communicate with him. By 3 or 4 years old you will rarely need a recall.
I generally use George Hickox method aimed at the dog learning that he can control the stim. The PK system is good and I have their DVDs. Because of physical ability, personality, experience, help and equipment, it won't all work for you. it will definitely point you in the right direction. Just don't expect the same results as somebody who has trained thousands of dogs. Time spent with the dog will make you a better......Cj

averageguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by averageguy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:40 pm

BIgK75,

I have watched approximately 60 different amateurs training their dogs as it happens at PK clinics I have attended. Everyone can learn and use their system as long as they have training birds, a place to train, and some reliable remote launchers.

Recall only requires a check cord, an ecollar and willingness to pay keen attention to what the dog and you are doing while training.

The DVD walks you through the process including proper level of Ecollar stimulation. Many dogs vocalize and often is not indicative of a problem per se.

If the level of stimulation is proper for the correction and the dog involved, the last thing you want to do is stop the stimulation just because the dog is vocalizing, as you are teaching the dog to vocalize all the more if you let it turn off the stimulation with vocalization vs compliance with the already trained command it is choosing to not obey in the moment of correction.

No one enjoys it, but backing off will be training the dog the exact wrong response vs the correct response.

The more you make things black and white for a dog the sooner things fall into place. It is far harder on a dog to be inconsistent in what you require from the dog because then they do not know what the right answer is.

That all assumes you have introduced the collar correctly, started at the right stimulation level for your specific dog, trained the command first without stimulation and increased levels only when and as needed. Until the pup will comply 100% in low levels of distraction do not train in high levels of distraction and that will go a long ways to avoiding high levels of corrections.

Some dogs require more than others. My current pup takes more than my now adult dog required. Key is she understands it and bounces back immediately.

The PK system is all about the dog learning it can control the stimulation, including foremost avoid it entirely by complying immediately with the already trained command, once you are downstream a ways in the training progression.

Study and apply the DVD and you will be fine.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4638
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Recall with ecollar question

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:10 pm

What AG has just posted is what every good EC training system does. Rex pioneered it a zillion years ago. Everyone now is just copying the Carr system.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Post Reply