Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

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RatDog
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Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:23 pm

Things have been progressing really well with my 10 month old pup. I am wondering about trying to steady him on wild birds without applying much pressure, ie collar stimulation. My question is this; is it possible using a check cord to steady the dog using wild birds by myself?

After work today I ran him, no gun, in a field edge I knew would be holding pheasants. Sure enough about 5 minutes in he got birdy and I saw a hen pheasant moving in the cover. He stopped, pointed and then looked at me. I held my hand up and said whoa, problem being he isn’t fully whoa broke. I started to move in to flush the bird and he broke and charged in ahead of me. We repeated this sequence one more time. After that he was just losing it and running around with his hair on fire and flushed two more birds without so much as slowing down.

Don’t get me wrong, my goal has been to fire up his drive so I view all of this as positive. However, I’m wondering if I had him on a check cord I could hold him on point and work past him then maybe walk backwards to flush the bird and do the Delmar check cord chin check maneuver if he started creeping?

Ideally I’ll find someone willing to go with me so I can hold him while they flush but it’d be great if there was a way to do it on my own.


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by deseeker » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:42 pm

SLOW DOWN -- you are trying to do too many things at once. You just got him to start finding birds & pointing them in the last 2 days --now you want him to be steady to wing, shot, & fall. You are going too fast, give him a chance to be a pup and figure it all out. I'll bet you just walked right
past him -- you encouraged him to go in on the birds with you if you did. When he points walk out to the side and circle slowly around in front of him so he can watch you go around him and still be looking in the direction he was pointing the bird. try to slowly move past the bird and pin it between you and him. Work on that for awhile, killing a few birds for him. You have said he is a soft dog and he loses interest if he is pressured too much. You have 10 to 12 years with this dog, slow down and let him build his confidence up. Kill some birds for him this season and then work to get him steady next year. Field trial dogs are run in puppy & derby stakes (non broke stakes) for 2 years before they are required to be broke and run in adult stakes. What I'm trying to tell you -- since you have a soft dog, slowly let him mature before you start hammering him to be a broke dog. This is JMO.
You might want to work him around home doing obediance on whoa (not around birds at home). That way in the future you can tell him whoa & that means DO NOT MOVE FOR ANY REASON. That will help you in the future after season is over. Take your time and enjoy the pup--it sounds like he'll turn out to be a good dog :D

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:50 pm

deseeker wrote:SLOW DOWN -- you are trying to do too many things at once. You just got him to start finding birds & pointing them in the last 2 days --now you want him to be steady to wing, shot, & fall. You are going too fast, give him a chance to be a pup and figure it all out. I'll bet you just walked right
past him -- you encouraged him to go in on the birds with you if you did. When he points walk out to the side and circle slowly around in front of him so he can watch you go around him and still be looking in the direction he was pointing the bird. try to slowly move past the bird and pin it between you and him. Work on that for awhile, killing a few birds for him. You have said he is a soft dog and he loses interest if he is pressured too much. You have 10 to 12 years with this dog, slow down and let him build his confidence up. Kill some birds for him this season and then work to get him steady next year. Field trial dogs are run in puppy & derby stakes (non broke stakes) for 2 years before they are required to be broke and run in adult stakes. What I'm trying to tell you -- since you have a soft dog, slowly let him mature before you start hammering him to be a broke dog. This is JMO.
You might want to work him around home doing obediance on whoa (not around birds at home). That way in the future you can tell him whoa & that means DO NOT MOVE FOR ANY REASON. That will help you in the future after season is over. Take your time and enjoy the pup--it sounds like he'll turn out to be a good dog :D
Thanks! That’s really helpful advice. I think you’re right. The plan has been to just let him go and I should stick to that. Honestly I didn’t expect things to be going this well which is making me a bit overzealous.

I tried to circle around to the side but as soon as I got past him he went for it. Maybe if I take a wider path? I’ll definitely see if he’ll let me get all the way around and pin the bird. That makes a lot of sense.


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by Fun dog » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:36 pm

My pup is 8- months. This is a free hunting season for her. When the season is over, there’s time enough to break her then. She’s having fun and the birds are teaching her. That doesn’t mean we’re not learning whoa in the yard. She knows it well, but I’m not using whoa around birds.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by averageguy » Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:10 am

RatDog,

Here is my 9 month old pup 3 days ago. She had not been on a training bird since her NA test the middle of August. I brought out her natural point using pigeons in launchers. Me remaining silent always, as you see I am in the video.

She was over the hill and out of sight when she found that bird. You see how far off the bird she is and holds completely steady til the bird flies. I touch on the process I used in my "Got a new pup" thread in the general discussion section. I mostly follow the Perfection Kennel methodology in this area, their DVDs are excellent, Clinics even better.

I never say Whoa to my dogs while they are pointing. They must learn on their own when to move and when not to move, as wild birds require a dog to relocate often and well to be successful.

We have been hunting wild birds since September 1st. On the road hunting now. I remain silent while my dogs (young and older) work birds. Trial and error will bring our your pup's natural point if you only shoot when the pup points and does not take the bird out.

After my pup's first hunting season I will steady her to WSF. I suggest you do the same using a well trained Whoa command and strong flying homing pigeons. Meanwhile I suggest you keep getting your pup into birds, zip your lip, grass a bird when he does it right, move on to the next bird when he doesn't.

Sounds like things are going well. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPcXlVCJK0

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:40 am

Ratdog:
There is no logical reason to expect a 10month old dog to be steady to the flush. Some are. Most are not. I do not see much reason for a checkcord at this point in his life. You can't hold the cord and flush the bird. Some dogs get pretty wild on the end of a check cord when the bird flushes.
The main thing now is to build up confidence. Just take him hunting. don't shoot the bird if he breaks and flushes the bird, let him chase if he wants to
do not punish him no matter what he does. Walk off and ignore the chase. Ignore him when he gives up and returns to you. Act like you disapprove. He probably won't catch a wild bird. Shoot a few accidental flushes, or birds that you flush he will soon learn that the gun gets the bird. Steady to WSF is
over rated in a hunting dog. Don't worry about It. Have fun and shoot birds. Let him mature a bit and he will be fine.
As was already mentioned, circle and come in from the in front and to the side side to flush, walk confidently ,don't sneak. You do not want him to think you are trying to steal his bird. You want him to think you are going to share the bird. Do not use " whoa" around a point unless he is rock solid. Doing so sends the wrong message.
Work on your shooting and take good shots. Lesson should be, shot= bird.
Again, have fun, shoot lots of birds, praise good, ignore bad. You have the start of a very good dog and a good area to train in, don't screw it up by trying to go to fast......Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:41 am

averageguy wrote:RatDog,

Here is my 9 month old pup 3 days ago. She had not been on a training bird since her NA test the middle of August. I brought out her natural point using pigeons in launchers. Me remaining silent always, as you see I am in the video.

She was over the hill and out of sight when she found that bird. You see how far off the bird she is and holds completely steady til the bird flies. I touch on the process I used in my "Got a new pup" thread in the general discussion section. I mostly follow the Perfection Kennel methodology in this area, their DVDs are excellent, Clinics even better.

I never say Whoa to my dogs while they are pointing. They must learn on their own when to move and when not to move, as wild birds require a dog to relocate often and well to be successful.

We have been hunting wild birds since September 1st. On the road hunting now. I remain silent while my dogs (young and older) work birds. Trial and error will bring our your pup's natural point if you only shoot when the pup points and does not take the bird out.

After my pup's first hunting season I will steady her to WSF. I suggest you do the same using a well trained Whoa command and strong flying homing pigeons. Meanwhile I suggest you keep getting your pup into birds, zip your lip, grass a bird when he does it right, move on to the next bird when he doesn't.

Sounds like things are going well. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPcXlVCJK0
That’s awesome! Sounds like a plan. Giving him the whoa command when he gets on the birds is silly since the command doesn’t have much, if any significance at this point. I’m sure you’re right that he needs to just learn when to move or not without any commands. That’s helpful advice about him eventually figuring it out by shooting and therefore rewarding ones he handles right but not saying anything. Gonna walk a piece of grouse cover after work so I’ll give it a try. Thanks!


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:42 am

cjhills wrote:Ratdog:
There is no logical reason to expect a 10month old dog to be steady to the flush. Some are. Most are not. I do not see much reason for a checkcord at this point in his life. You can't hold the cord and flush the bird. Some dogs get pretty wild on the end of a check cord when the bird flushes.
The main thing now is to build up confidence. Just take him hunting. don't shoot the bird if he breaks and flushes the bird, let him chase if he wants to
do not punish him no matter what he does. Walk off and ignore the chase. Ignore him when he gives up and returns to you. Act like you disapprove. He probably won't catch a wild bird. Shoot a few accidental flushes, or birds that you flush he will soon learn that the gun gets the bird. Steady to WSF is
over rated in a hunting dog. Don't worry about It. Have fun and shoot birds. Let him mature a bit and he will be fine.
As was already mentioned, circle and come in from the in front and to the side side to flush, walk confidently ,don't sneak. You do not want him to think you are trying to steal his bird. You want him to think you are going to share the bird. Do not use " whoa" around a point unless he is rock solid. Doing so sends the wrong message.
Work on your shooting and take good shots. Lesson should be, shot= bird.
Again, have fun, shoot lots of birds, praise good, ignore bad. You have the start of a very good dog and a good area to train in, don't screw it up by trying to go to fast......Cj
ImageImage


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:17 am

I do not have a whoa command yet my dogs stay steady on point. I never use an e-collar and very seldom ever use a checkcord yet my dogs do not chase. I command them in to flush birds and they still do not chase. I allow or even almost encourage them to chase every bird they find when they are still just 3 months old and they keep on doing that until the birds have taught them , by flying away, that they cannot be caught. Well bred , keen dogs will still want to find birds whether they can catch them or not and whether the birds they find have been shot or not.

There is nothing "marvellous" about all of that . Most folk in Britain train their pointing dogs in much the same way. I won trials with dogs that had never worn an e-collar or a checkcord, all I used in the way of equipment was my voice, a whistle, a lot of boot leather and , most importantly, just enough wild birds to keep pups trying to find another one.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:14 am

I wouldnt even worry about steadying that dog. If its pointing and looking back at you then there are more issues that need to be resolved than getting the dog steady.

At this point I would let that dog bump and chase as many birds as you can out it on. You need to get that drive and desire up. Making a dog stand birds wont do that.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:09 am

The looking at you when he is on point was a thing I was going to address and forgot. It is generally a sign of some kind of stress. He was very young when he was at Steve's. A lot of pro trainers are not good with timid dogs. They need to produce results quickly and do not have time to mess with a dog that does not take to their methods.
Many dogs do not get it at a very young age. A dog that points at a young age is not necessarily better as an adult...... Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:18 am

cjhills wrote:The looking at you when he is on point was a thing I was going to address and forgot. It is generally a sign of some kind of stress. He was very young when he was at Steve's. A lot of pro trainers are not good with timid dogs. They need to produce results quickly and do not have time to mess with a dog that does not take to their methods.
Many dogs do not get it at a very young age. A dog that points at a young age is not necessarily better as an adult...... Cj
Got it. Makes sense. Thanks


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:47 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:14 am
I wouldnt even worry about steadying that dog. If its pointing and looking back at you then there are more issues that need to be resolved than getting the dog steady.

At this point I would let that dog bump and chase as many birds as you can out it on. You need to get that drive and desire up. Making a dog stand birds wont do that.
Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Curious what kind of problems would exist with a dog that points and occasionally looks at you while doing it. I have an 8 month old that will do this sometimes. I assumed it was his way of making sure that I'm aware of what he is pointing, or like he is checking to make sure I'm coming to finish the sequence. It never occurred to me that it could be a problem as long as he continues to hold the point.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:39 pm

It is a sign of too much pressure being put on a dog.

A dog should have 100% on the task at hand,that task is pointing birds. He is not making sure you know he is pointing.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:29 am

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:39 pm
It is a sign of too much pressure being put on a dog.

A dog should have 100% on the task at hand,that task is pointing birds. He is not making sure you know he is pointing.
Sorry if this seems like a crazy basic question, but what kind of things would be likely sources of pressure for a dog in that situation? I assume the answer is me, but I guess I'm not sure how I'd be causing it. I focus on keeping my mouth shut as much as possible when he's working, and I try to go slow and give him as much time as he wants if he's acting birdy. Any obvious sources of pressure that guys put on their dogs in these situations that I should watch out for?

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by shags » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:28 am

With head slinging IME it's not so much what you're doing with that particular point, it's what you do/did during training. Could be too much chatter from yourself, too much verbal cautioning, too much hands on styling up, too much physical correction, sometimes even overly aggressive body language...anything the dog has found scary or unpleasant. During training, corrections are somewhat unpleasant, but every dog is different with what might be intolerable to him. Like my soft younger dog is fine with small physical correction like snapping the cc or setting him back up, but he folds at getting yelled at so he gets only soft hands and no verbal even for praise.
I've seen it help to firm up loose dogs by letting them stand there getting a good snootful of bird rather than hurrying in for the flush. With some it's the opposite. It's a matter of figuring out what works or not for your own dog.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:44 am

Shag's post is right on.
It is not what the trainer thinks is pressure, but what the dog thinks is pressure. the trainer needs to figure that out or hope it goes away. It is also the biggest cause for dogs that sit on point.....Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:52 am

IDHunter wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:29 am
RyanDoolittle wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:39 pm
It is a sign of too much pressure being put on a dog.

A dog should have 100% on the task at hand,that task is pointing birds. He is not making sure you know he is pointing.
Sorry if this seems like a crazy basic question, but what kind of things would be likely sources of pressure for a dog in that situation? I assume the answer is me, but I guess I'm not sure how I'd be causing it. I focus on keeping my mouth shut as much as possible when he's working, and I try to go slow and give him as much time as he wants if he's acting birdy. Any obvious sources of pressure that guys put on their dogs in these situations that I should watch out for?
Pressure is alot of things like shags mentioned. The most common pressure I find is simply walking up to a dog on point. One side of his brain is telling him to beat you to that bird, the other side is telling him he needs to stand still. He is unsure of what the dog should do, all the while your walking closer and closer making it worse and worse.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:54 am

Interesting, thanks for the input.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by DonF » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:25 pm

IDHunter wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:47 pm
RyanDoolittle wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:14 am
I wouldnt even worry about steadying that dog. If its pointing and looking back at you then there are more issues that need to be resolved than getting the dog steady.

At this point I would let that dog bump and chase as many birds as you can out it on. You need to get that drive and desire up. Making a dog stand birds wont do that.
Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Curious what kind of problems would exist with a dog that points and occasionally looks at you while doing it. I have an 8 month old that will do this sometimes. I assumed it was his way of making sure that I'm aware of what he is pointing, or like he is checking to make sure I'm coming to finish the sequence. It never occurred to me that it could be a problem as long as he continues to hold the point.
Easy fix with a remote launcher. Dog move's at all pop the bird. He'll be learning it's his movement that causes the bird to leave! Then do not correct the dog, simply go on like nothing happened! won't take long at all to stop that.

In another post turning it's head to see the handler as you come in, pop the bird and, learn not to come in on your dog! There is no reason to go to your dog. Circle wide around it and go to the bird! Lot of people seem to think it reassure's the dog to go to it and reward it for doing the job then they walk past the dog and the dog move's with them! Do not go to the dog When you walk past to close you are generally going to pull the dog with you. That is your fault!
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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:54 pm

DonF wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:25 pm
IDHunter wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:47 pm
RyanDoolittle wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:14 am
I wouldnt even worry about steadying that dog. If its pointing and looking back at you then there are more issues that need to be resolved than getting the dog steady.

At this point I would let that dog bump and chase as many birds as you can out it on. You need to get that drive and desire up. Making a dog stand birds wont do that.
Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Curious what kind of problems would exist with a dog that points and occasionally looks at you while doing it. I have an 8 month old that will do this sometimes. I assumed it was his way of making sure that I'm aware of what he is pointing, or like he is checking to make sure I'm coming to finish the sequence. It never occurred to me that it could be a problem as long as he continues to hold the point.
Easy fix with a remote launcher. Dog move's at all pop the bird. He'll be learning it's his movement that causes the bird to leave! Then do not correct the dog, simply go on like nothing happened! won't take long at all to stop that.

In another post turning it's head to see the handler as you come in, pop the bird and, learn not to come in on your dog! There is no reason to go to your dog. Circle wide around it and go to the bird! Lot of people seem to think it reassure's the dog to go to it and reward it for doing the job then they walk past the dog and the dog move's with them! Do not go to the dog When you walk past to close you are generally going to pull the dog with you. That is your fault!
Yep I've actually been thinking of doing some launcher work for a couple of reasons, so good to know.

And to be more specific about the head turn, I'm not going right to him when he locks up on point. I am circling or coming in from the side. However, he's not pointing from much distance yet, so most of the time I do have to get in pretty close to him to flush whatever he has pointed. Frankly he hasn't had an opportunity to point a whole lot of birds, not as many I'd like to have put him on. The place that we typically go to work gets a lot of dog traffic, and the birds that were fairly abundant in the spring have been pushed out a little due to several months of dogs being run there. But when he does he typically points them from inside 10 yards. It's not like he is locking up at 30 yards where I have more room to flush out in front of him. Either way though, I'll try and be aware of giving as wide of berth as I possibly can while still working in to flush anything he points and give him his "reward".

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:45 pm

I think if you spent the rest of the year running the dog on wild birds and keeping your mouth shut, alot of these problems would go away by the time season closed.

There are tons if wild birds in Idaho, use this as an oppritunity to find new areas.

Dont worry so much about the dog doing anything right. Keep him infront, keep him having fun, let him find birds and point birds without you making a sound.
Last edited by RyanDoolittle on Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:06 am

Ryan's post is my thinking also.
If you have a good supply of wild birds, forget the launcher. He might be easily intimidated by the launcher and it is easy to have a malfunction.
You don't need to circle out along ways just make sure he can see you , maybe 5 yards or so. Attitude and body language is important. Hitting the bird you shoot at over his point is extremely important. Message to the dogs is : you did a good job, now it is my turn to do mine and you get the retrieve.
I had a guy call yesterday looking to replace a pup he bought from me 12 years ago. He asked me if I remembered yelling " shut up" at him when we were training his pup and he kept talking to her when he flushed the bird. I didn't remember, but he does.
Keep doing what you are doing.......Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by weimdogman » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:03 am

cjhills wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:06 am
Ryan's post is my thinking also.
If you have a good supply of wild birds, forget the launcher. He might be easily intimidated by the launcher and it is easy to have a malfunction.
You don't need to circle out along ways just make sure he can see you , maybe 5 yards or so. Attitude and body language is important. Hitting the bird you shoot at over his point is extremely important. Message to the dogs is : you did a good job, now it is my turn to do mine and you get the retrieve.
I had a guy call yesterday looking to replace a pup he bought from me 12 years ago. He asked me if I remembered yelling " shut up" at him when we were training his pup and he kept talking to her when he flushed the bird. I didn't remember, but he does.
Keep doing what you are doing.......Cj
Funny but most people would be better trainers if they followed those 2 words of advice- shut up😉

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:13 pm

weimdogman wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:03 am
cjhills wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:06 am
Ryan's post is my thinking also.
If you have a good supply of wild birds, forget the launcher. He might be easily intimidated by the launcher and it is easy to have a malfunction.
You don't need to circle out along ways just make sure he can see you , maybe 5 yards or so. Attitude and body language is important. Hitting the bird you shoot at over his point is extremely important. Message to the dogs is : you did a good job, now it is my turn to do mine and you get the retrieve.
I had a guy call yesterday looking to replace a pup he bought from me 12 years ago. He asked me if I remembered yelling " shut up" at him when we were training his pup and he kept talking to her when he flushed the bird. I didn't remember, but he does.
Keep doing what you are doing.......Cj
Funny but most people would be better trainers if they followed those 2 words of advice- shut up😉
I can tell you that's one piece of advice that got hammered home to me right away and I've followed. I talk to my dog very minimally in the field. I've been very good about that since day one. I do occasionally use "leave it" if he's getting into something he shouldn't, but other than that I'm very quiet when we are working.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I think I have a huge problem going on. He has had points (most notably on chukar) where he locked up VERY tight and didn't move a muscle. Sometimes he's a bit sloppy but sometimes he's also doing it right. I was just a little surprised to learn that it was a potential sign of a problem to have him move his head to look at me on point, which again only happens sometimes. Given that he is 8 months old and hasn't been through a hunting season yet I'm certainly not overly worried about it.

But again, thanks for the tips. Maybe I will hold off on the launchers... haven't decided. You're right about there being lots of wild birds here. But I also have a great training area 10 minutes from home where I could work launchers, where as it's a much more healthy drive to get to the good wild bird places for me, and with working full time we don't get much wild bird action during the week. We do it on the weekends, but during the week we are mostly forced to use the close to home training grounds. That's really the only reason I've considered launchers, is I could use them as frequently as needed without much effort. But who knows, maybe i'll see how this first season plays out and then decide next spring. And yes, I'll continue to keep my mouth shut with him. He's displayed some great signs of having what it takes to turn into a good gun dog, so we are excited for the next 3 months.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:25 am

You would be farther along come december if you ran the dog on wild birds once a week vs 3x a week on pigeons.

If you have wild birds available, that's all I would use. Pigeons and launchers are for when you dont have wild birds, your breaking a dog to W&S or your working on backing. EVERYTHING else can be and should be taught using the real thing. There is a reason hundreds of thousands of dollars is paid every july and thousands of dog head to the prairie. What a dog learns in that short 6-8 weeks cannot be taught on pen birds and the dogs get farther ahead than if they stayed home. You have that available in your backyard, so use it.

Also remember, big problems start as little problems that dont get addressed quickly. It's easier to fix a small problem now than a big one later. So learning to identify those things quickly and early will save you alot of headache later.

Work on yard work during the week, save weekends and let the dog loose on the real thing. Dont worry about the number of times a week you can do it. Most people reading this board wont see as many days hunting as you will if you can commit once week. After all what did you buy this dog for, shooting pigeons in a field or hunting wild birds. Let the birds do the teaching.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by Max2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:00 am

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:25 am
Let the birds do the teaching.


I agree with this ^^^^^^^ & Shhhhhhhhhh ! meaning just take it all in . He's not catch'n no wild bird :D

Again ~ JMHO !

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by averageguy » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:13 am

The value of launchers is using them to present a training bird as close to a wild bird as possible. Most people don't get that.

I use launchers when my puppies are young, prior to their first hunting season to teach caution and bring out the pup's natural pointing instinct. I introduce the launcher prior to using it and have explained the process I use elsewhere (send me a PM if you can't find it). Never had a pup afraid of the launcher using that approach. I never use them without having first introduced them prior.

The advantage I gain using launchers and training birds prior to hunting the pup, is the pup connects the dots that if it points and never moves, the bird holds, I will flush and shoot it, which results in a bird in its mouth, (which is the ultimate reward for the pup). I am not check cording the pup into the bird, rather I am letting the pup search and hit the scent cone on its own. If it points immediately and holds, the bird stays, if it advances towards the scent the bird is launched and flies away. Just like wild birds behave. I remain silent throughout but for encouraging/praising the retrieve of a shot bird.

Then I hunt the pup on wild birds as much as possible. The pup still has much to learn but is more inclined to point and hold when it finds/smells wild birds. It has also learned some valuable lessons on the futility of chasing strong flying birds by its prior exposure to strong flying pigeons which makes the first hunts go smoother as well. I keep silent while my pups hunt and work birds, as I also do in my launcher work. Only hunting wild birds will teach the pup all the things it needs to learn to excel.

Both properly presented training birds and wild birds have their place and time.

An 8 month old pup with daily access to wild birds and an open hunting season, I would hunt the pup as much as possible, stay silent as I do, shoot the birds the pup points, walk on to the next ones when it does not. That is assuming I am not seeing any problems which left unchecked could become bad habits.

IDHunter,

No one on this board has seen your dog in action. Your pup turning its head to acknowledge your approach to flush is not an automatic indication of a problem at all. It is not uncommon for some smart cooperative dogs do this. Sometimes it can indicate a dog suffering from too much pressure but no one commenting here has adequate information to reach that conclusion. You are the best read of your pup at the moment. Take some video and post if you are really concerned about it and then we all have better information to comment on that.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:01 pm

I think maybe I could use some encouragement to stay the course here. I’ve had my dog on wild birds 15 days so far he has gone from being timid and not very sure of himself but occasionally pointing to a heat seeking missile heck bent on flushing birds! I love the drive and building it was the goal so that’s a positive. Only problem is now he thinks the game is to find them and flush them. He will occasionally feint a point before going in but doesn’t really stop. Is this part of the learning progression you guys are talking about? If I keep at it on an almost daily basis is he going to figure something out and start pointing?

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by averageguy » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:38 pm

RatDog wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:01 pm
I think maybe I could use some encouragement to stay the course here. I’ve had my dog on wild birds 15 days so far he has gone from being timid and not very sure of himself but occasionally pointing to a heat seeking missile heck bent on flushing birds! I love the drive and building it was the goal so that’s a positive. Only problem is now he thinks the game is to find them and flush them. He will occasionally feint a point before going in but doesn’t really stop. Is this part of the learning progression you guys are talking about? If I keep at it on an almost daily basis is he going to figure something out and start pointing?
That is why I use strong flying homing pigeons in launchers to bring out my pups natural pointing instinct prior to hunting them. You are blessed to live where you live but it can be a long season of alot of walking and little shooting when a pup chooses to take out all the birds it finds.

I believe your choices are:

Keep hunting the pup on wild birds, if it points a bird long enough for you to flush it, shoot it and praise the pup profusely when it retrieves the birds including letting it parade around with the bird before taking it away. If the pup instead takes the birds out, hold fire and keep hunting for the next birds. With enough exposure the pup's pointing instincts should kick in but it will take patience on your part as you have seen so far. Shooting any birds the pup scents and flushes on its own will re-enforce the wrong flushing behavior. You say he occasionally points the birds he finds. Great! Keep working for those outcomes.

Or you can work the pup on some strong flying homing pigeons in launchers, popping the bird the moment the pup indicates it smells the bird. When the pup points and holds, launch and shoot the bird, otherwise keep launching and letting them fly away back to the coop when the pup moves forward into the scent cone. With access to training birds you might well get the pup pointing in just a few repetitive sessions and then go back to hunting the wild birds.

The great news is your pup is excited about birds, hunting for them and finding them.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:48 pm

averageguy wrote:
RatDog wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:01 pm
I think maybe I could use some encouragement to stay the course here. I’ve had my dog on wild birds 15 days so far he has gone from being timid and not very sure of himself but occasionally pointing to a heat seeking missile heck bent on flushing birds! I love the drive and building it was the goal so that’s a positive. Only problem is now he thinks the game is to find them and flush them. He will occasionally feint a point before going in but doesn’t really stop. Is this part of the learning progression you guys are talking about? If I keep at it on an almost daily basis is he going to figure something out and start pointing?
That is why I use strong flying homing pigeons in launchers to bring out my pups natural pointing instinct prior to hunting them. You are blessed to live where you live but it can be a long season of alot of walking and little shooting when a pup chooses to take out all the birds it finds.

I believe your choices are:

Keep hunting the pup on wild birds, if it points a bird long enough for you to flush it, shoot it and praise the pup profusely when it retrieves the birds including letting it parade around with the bird before taking it away. If the pup instead takes the birds out, hold fire and keep hunting for the next birds. With enough exposure the pup's pointing instincts should kick in but it will take patience on your part as you have seen so far. Shooting any birds the pup scents and flushes on its own will re-enforce the wrong flushing behavior. You say he occasionally points the birds he finds. Great! Keep working for those outcomes.

Or you can work the pup on some strong flying homing pigeons in launchers, popping the bird the moment the pup indicates it smells the bird. When the pup points and holds, launch and shoot the bird, otherwise keep launching and letting them fly away back to the coop when the pup moves forward into the scent cone. With access to training birds you might well get the pup pointing in just a few repetitive sessions and then go back to hunting the wild birds.

The great news is your pup is excited about birds, hunting for them and finding them.
That makes sense. My concern is that we had several, like 3 or 4, solid points that ended up being hens so I couldn’t shoot. I haven’t been shooting birds he flushes but have shot lots of birds that flush wild so I believe I’ve muddied the waters. The second option isn’t feasible so looks like I’ll be walking Image It’s incredibly tempting to hit him with the collar when he starts going in or try to use the check cord some way but sounds like that’s not a good idea at this point.

You’re absolutely correct in that he’s come a long way. He’s like a totally different dog. Now when he knows we are hitting the field he gets super fired up. It’s so fun to watch him rip around once he catches scent. Those are all great things and the most important it seems. I can try and put brakes on him in the off season if he doesn’t figure it out.

Thanks for the guidance!


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:56 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:25 am
You would be farther along come december if you ran the dog on wild birds once a week vs 3x a week on pigeons.

If you have wild birds available, that's all I would use. Pigeons and launchers are for when you dont have wild birds, your breaking a dog to W&S or your working on backing. EVERYTHING else can be and should be taught using the real thing. There is a reason hundreds of thousands of dollars is paid every july and thousands of dog head to the prairie. What a dog learns in that short 6-8 weeks cannot be taught on pen birds and the dogs get farther ahead than if they stayed home. You have that available in your backyard, so use it.

Also remember, big problems start as little problems that dont get addressed quickly. It's easier to fix a small problem now than a big one later. So learning to identify those things quickly and early will save you alot of headache later.

Work on yard work during the week, save weekends and let the dog loose on the real thing. Dont worry about the number of times a week you can do it. Most people reading this board wont see as many days hunting as you will if you can commit once week. After all what did you buy this dog for, shooting pigeons in a field or hunting wild birds. Let the birds do the teaching.
Thanks, this is good feedback.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:59 pm

averageguy wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:13 am
The value of launchers is using them to present a training bird as close to a wild bird as possible. Most people don't get that.

I use launchers when my puppies are young, prior to their first hunting season to teach caution and bring out the pup's natural pointing instinct. I introduce the launcher prior to using it and have explained the process I use elsewhere (send me a PM if you can't find it). Never had a pup afraid of the launcher using that approach. I never use them without having first introduced them prior.

The advantage I gain using launchers and training birds prior to hunting the pup, is the pup connects the dots that if it points and never moves, the bird holds, I will flush and shoot it, which results in a bird in its mouth, (which is the ultimate reward for the pup). I am not check cording the pup into the bird, rather I am letting the pup search and hit the scent cone on its own. If it points immediately and holds, the bird stays, if it advances towards the scent the bird is launched and flies away. Just like wild birds behave. I remain silent throughout but for encouraging/praising the retrieve of a shot bird.

Then I hunt the pup on wild birds as much as possible. The pup still has much to learn but is more inclined to point and hold when it finds/smells wild birds. It has also learned some valuable lessons on the futility of chasing strong flying birds by its prior exposure to strong flying pigeons which makes the first hunts go smoother as well. I keep silent while my pups hunt and work birds, as I also do in my launcher work. Only hunting wild birds will teach the pup all the things it needs to learn to excel.

Both properly presented training birds and wild birds have their place and time.

An 8 month old pup with daily access to wild birds and an open hunting season, I would hunt the pup as much as possible, stay silent as I do, shoot the birds the pup points, walk on to the next ones when it does not. That is assuming I am not seeing any problems which left unchecked could become bad habits.

IDHunter,

No one on this board has seen your dog in action. Your pup turning its head to acknowledge your approach to flush is not an automatic indication of a problem at all. It is not uncommon for some smart cooperative dogs do this. Sometimes it can indicate a dog suffering from too much pressure but no one commenting here has adequate information to reach that conclusion. You are the best read of your pup at the moment. Take some video and post if you are really concerned about it and then we all have better information to comment on that.
Good insight and recommendations, as always. Thanks

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by deseeker » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:00 pm

If you start useing the e-collar when he starts to go in on the birds you will get a dog that blinks birds to avoid being shocked. He'll try to avoid birds so he doesn't get shocked. That's how you get a dog to avoid deer, snakes, etc. -- when they smell or see deer, snakes, etc, you crank the collar way up, don't say a word and hit em with the juice. YOU DO NOT WANT TO USE THE E_COLLAR WHEN THEY ARE on birds or you will teach him to avoid birds.
If you won't buy pigeons and a launcher to train him, then keep working wild birds and ONLY SHOOT what he points. You've got the start of a good dog, but you need to take your time and do it right. Keep at it and good luck :D

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by averageguy » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:46 pm

Hitting that pup with an ecollar while it is working a bird right now will ruin it. Check cord is a bad idea as well.

My advise remains as posted a couple of times already.

What took place at the trainers with your pup wasn't good and it wasn't the pup's fault.

Be part of the solution not the problem at this point and that will require patience.

I hunted prairie grouse a couple of drops last week with a young dog owned by a friend of mine. She had several nice finds/points on her runs. I also watched that dog run last season. She took out every bird she found last season. My Buddy now thinks she is his best dog.

My current 9 month old pup points a pigeon at first scent from a good ways off, consistently. She was so excited when she hit scent on wild birds however that her nose was pulling her in more often than not. Then she pointed a family group of Prairie Chickens and held while I flushed and shot a couple. Ever since she has been seeking to point the birds she has found.

I hunted with an EP in Texas a couple of years back. The dog was excellent. Her Breeder/Trainer said he was not sure she was ever going to stop running through birds as a young dog.

Young dogs figure these things out. The best ones are often the ones most eager to take out a bird initially.

Patience is critical at this stage of your pup's development.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:57 pm

Understood. No e-collar around birds! All I was trying to say is that when you know he just hit scent hard and pauses for a beat it’s hard to let him keep going without doing anything. That is what I’ll continue to do without saying a peep. Patience has never been a strong suit of mine so maybe it’ll be good for both of us

Super helpful feedback. Thanks!


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:01 am

RatDog wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:57 pm
Understood. No e-collar around birds! All I was trying to say is that when you know he just hit scent hard and pauses for a beat it’s hard to let him keep going without doing anything. That is what I’ll continue to do without saying a peep. Patience has never been a strong suit of mine so maybe it’ll be good for both of us Image

Super helpful feedback. Thanks!


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In this case, huns and chukar wont take the pressure from a dog that wants to blow through them. A smart dog will learn this and start holding.

Come spring you can fix it with a launcher easily. John Hann has a great method he explains in the perfect start videos.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by DonF » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:13 am

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:25 am
You would be farther along come december if you ran the dog on wild birds once a week vs 3x a week on pigeons.

If you have wild birds available, that's all I would use. Pigeons and launchers are for when you dont have wild birds, your breaking a dog to W&S or your working on backing. EVERYTHING else can be and should be taught using the real thing. There is a reason hundreds of thousands of dollars is paid every july and thousands of dog head to the prairie. What a dog learns in that short 6-8 weeks cannot be taught on pen birds and the dogs get farther ahead than if they stayed home. You have that available in your backyard, so use it.

Also remember, big problems start as little problems that dont get addressed quickly. It's easier to fix a small problem now than a big one later. So learning to identify those things quickly and early will save you alot of headache later.

Work on yard work during the week, save weekends and let the dog loose on the real thing. Dont worry about the number of times a week you can do it. Most people reading this board wont see as many days hunting as you will if you can commit once week. After all what did you buy this dog for, shooting pigeons in a field or hunting wild birds. Let the birds do the teaching.
There is some truth to this. You could make a dog on wild birds but huge problem is wild birds won't co-operate with you and there are not always where you need them. Much better in my opinion to get the remote launcher and set up situations you might want and then use the remote to ensure the pigeon act's like a wild bird! That's the huge flaw with me on training only with wild birds! Can it be done? I'm sure it can but it's gonna take longer to get as far along with your dog for no other reason than wild birds won't co-operate with you!

Example of lack of co=operation. You have your dog on a wild bird but not ssure exactly where it is. Your gonna have to take your eyes off the dog and look for the bird. With a pigeon in the remote, you know where the bird is going in and don't need to look for it. Eye's stay on the dog and it move's the bird fly's! Actually most wild birds allow a lot more movement than I let a dog have my point being to teach the dog that it's movement cause's the bird to leave.

If you want to teach a dog not to chase again use pigeon's. Back to the yard and whoa training. Bring the dog around and whoa it. Let it stand a few sec and release a bird. The dog will move, guaranteed. Soon as it does, bump under the chin and whoa again. Keep moving the command and the release closer together until you simply eliminate the whoa command. A wild bird will not co-operate with you in that situation! You teach all you can then send the dog to collage, that would be the wild bird. Dog goes into it with some knowledge of what is going to happen and the wild bird will polish your dog for you in way's you can't.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:32 pm

DonF wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:13 am
RyanDoolittle wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:25 am
You would be farther along come december if you ran the dog on wild birds once a week vs 3x a week on pigeons.

If you have wild birds available, that's all I would use. Pigeons and launchers are for when you dont have wild birds, your breaking a dog to W&S or your working on backing. EVERYTHING else can be and should be taught using the real thing. There is a reason hundreds of thousands of dollars is paid every july and thousands of dog head to the prairie. What a dog learns in that short 6-8 weeks cannot be taught on pen birds and the dogs get farther ahead than if they stayed home. You have that available in your backyard, so use it.

Also remember, big problems start as little problems that dont get addressed quickly. It's easier to fix a small problem now than a big one later. So learning to identify those things quickly and early will save you alot of headache later.

Work on yard work during the week, save weekends and let the dog loose on the real thing. Dont worry about the number of times a week you can do it. Most people reading this board wont see as many days hunting as you will if you can commit once week. After all what did you buy this dog for, shooting pigeons in a field or hunting wild birds. Let the birds do the teaching.
There is some truth to this. You could make a dog on wild birds but huge problem is wild birds won't co-operate with you and there are not always where you need them. Much better in my opinion to get the remote launcher and set up situations you might want and then use the remote to ensure the pigeon act's like a wild bird! That's the huge flaw with me on training only with wild birds! Can it be done? I'm sure it can but it's gonna take longer to get as far along with your dog for no other reason than wild birds won't co-operate with you!

Example of lack of co=operation. You have your dog on a wild bird but not ssure exactly where it is. Your gonna have to take your eyes off the dog and look for the bird. With a pigeon in the remote, you know where the bird is going in and don't need to look for it. Eye's stay on the dog and it move's the bird fly's! Actually most wild birds allow a lot more movement than I let a dog have my point being to teach the dog that it's movement cause's the bird to leave.

If you want to teach a dog not to chase again use pigeon's. Back to the yard and whoa training. Bring the dog around and whoa it. Let it stand a few sec and release a bird. The dog will move, guaranteed. Soon as it does, bump under the chin and whoa again. Keep moving the command and the release closer together until you simply eliminate the whoa command. A wild bird will not co-operate with you in that situation! You teach all you can then send the dog to collage, that would be the wild bird. Dog goes into it with some knowledge of what is going to happen and the wild bird will polish your dog for you in way's you can't.
We are talking about an 8 month old puppy here that is soft on birds not breaking a dog in the yard or teaching him to point. I mentioned the differences above and when launchers come in handy.

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Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:22 am

That makes a lot of sense. I’m going to finish out the year as is then go that route in the off season. He’s made a lot of progress but nowhere near polished. I’d like to use the launcher/tip up to get him nice and staunch and stop creeping. If the birds hold tight he’s pointing them but he crowds too much for Huns and Sharpies most of the time. Perfect example; yesterday we were walking a peninsula of tall grass and a couple clumps of bushes in an ag field. There was a spur off of the main body of the cover. I saw him hit the scent as soon as he got near that spur and pause a second before starting to creep. Pretty shortly thereafter a big covey of Huns flushed out of range. I want to get him to lock up at that moment he first hits the scent.

Where he’s doing well is if they’ll let him get close, like a pheasant really dug into a clump of bushes, he will point, but with some movement, and let me move in and flush the bird.

Sounds like these are things I can fix by setting up scenarios and controlling the outcome. My hope is that now that he’s been having so much fun and we tapped into his drive he’ll tolerate a little more pressure and we can get to where we want to be through training.


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by weimdogman » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:57 pm

Praise the heck out of him when he points and let's you flush the birds. Let him know how happy you are that he did it right.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:16 pm

weimdogman wrote:Praise the heck out of him when he points and let's you flush the birds. Let him know how happy you are that he did it right.
ImageImageImage


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:47 am

Ratdog:
Just be aware that your dog was nearly ruined by something in his early training. My guess is trying to go too fast with a soft ,young dog. But that is a guess. Maybe intimidated by the launcher. Who knows.
You have done a great job of building up his confidence and drive. There is no real reason to worry about being steady this season. Keep doing what you are doing on the wild birds. When you do use a launcher be very careful that you do not intimidate the dog. Some dogs are afraid of the sound of the launcher and if, in his training he was intimidated it may come back. I have seen dogs that never forgot. Do not let him get to close to the launcher
Eventually you will need to stop the chase. In order to do that you need to keep the drive alive, as he matures and builds up his confidence,
that should be easy. You will be able to use the collar to stop the chase. Get a good solid whoa in the yard during the off season and train him to stop on accidental flushes. One or two times a week on wild birds should be fine in the off season. Keep him interested. No drive, no dog.....Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by averageguy » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:21 am

x2 on keeping the pup on wild birds, shoot the ones he points, hold fire when he flushes. Steady him up after this season and before his second season. Study and follow a program when you go to steady the pup vs trying to wing it based on a few paragraphs you read posted on the internet.

Lauchers - I always introduce them to my pups. Just common sense. Never had a pup afraid of a launcher because of it.

Having already introduced a dead pigeon and letting my pups carrying and retrieve it numerous times prior, I place a dead pigeon in a launcher setting in the wide open in my gravel driveway. I bring the pup upwind on a check cord and stop the pup about 25 to 30 yards away where it can easily see the launcher. I pop the launcher, the dead pigeon goes up and plops back down, I drop the check cord and the pup runs to get the pigeon. I repeat 2-3 times assuming the pup's reaction is straining to get to the bird and launcher when it sees it. All my pups immediately got a positive association with the launcher that has stuck with them for life.

Very simple. Just needs to be done. No different than the common sense needed when introducing water, birds, guns, decoys ...

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:27 am

averageguy wrote:x2 on keeping the pup on wild birds, shoot the ones he points, hold fire when he flushes. Steady him up after this season and before his second season. Study and follow a program when you go to steady the pup vs trying to wing it based on a few paragraphs you read posted on the internet.

Lauchers - I always introduce them to my pups. Just common sense. Never had a pup afraid of a launcher because of it.

Having already introduced a dead pigeon and letting my pups carrying and retrieve it numerous times prior, I place a dead pigeon in a launcher setting in the wide open in my gravel driveway. I bring the pup upwind on a check cord and stop the pup about 25 to 30 yards away where it can easily see the launcher. I pop the launcher, the dead pigeon goes up and plops back down, I drop the check cord and the pup runs to get the pigeon. I repeat 2-3 times assuming the pup's reaction is straining to get to the bird and launcher when it sees it. All my pups immediately got a positive association with the launcher that has stuck with them for life.

Very simple. Just needs to be done. No different than the common sense needed when introducing water, birds, guns, decoys ...
For sure. I have all the DVD’s and books by Delmar and Ronnie Smith so that’s the route I’m going to go. I’m thinking I’ll just treat it like we are starting over and go from the beginning. Hopefully he’ll just need a refresh on certain things but I’ll take it as slow as we have to and try and use a soft touch.


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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:02 am

That is all very nice. However keep in mind if he has already been intimidated by launchers, he may remember and in that case it will be fixing a problem not starting over.........Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:03 am

cjhills wrote:That is all very nice. However keep in mind if he has already been intimidated by launchers, he may remember and in that case it will be fixing a problem not starting over.........Cj
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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by averageguy » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:27 pm

cjhills wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:02 am
That is all very nice. However keep in mind if he has already been intimidated by launchers, he may remember and in that case it will be fixing a problem not starting over.........Cj
Yes and if Ratdog uses the approach I posted the potential problem with a launcher will be immediate evident and the pup will still be a safe distance away to not cause any significant additional harm.

My Bet is it won't be a problem but I approach every introduction with caution to avoid problems vs start them.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:14 pm

Ratdog
We do not know what happens at the trainers. I had a fairly big name trainer launch a bird from a snow covered launcher that hit my dog. That dog is now a 12 year old AKC Master dog, she is a super dog. BUt, she has never went within 100 yards of a launcher again and certainly will not point one. Not saying your dog will do that or had that happen to him, but be aware it could. It is the more intelligent dogs that have issues........Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RatDog » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:19 pm

cjhills wrote:Ratdog
We do not know what happens at the trainers. I had a fairly big name trainer launch a bird from a snow covered launcher that hit my dog. That dog is now a 12 year old AKC Master dog, she is a super dog. BUt, she has never went within 100 yards of a launcher again and certainly will not point one. Not saying your dog will do that or had that happen to him, but be aware it could. It is the more intelligent dogs that have issues........Cj
Thanks for the heads up. I’ll be on the lookout for any weirdness. We’ll just take it nice and easy like averageguy recommended.


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