Walking Bird Dog on Lead

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d265
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Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by d265 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:36 pm

I'm trying to make some decisions on the best way to train my GSP to walk on a lead. He's young and likes to pull, to the point that it aggravates me. We've worked on heel and he's improving, but we live in town and some days we don't have time to train and it's just walking through the neighborhood. I don't mind the dogs sniffing and peeing on stuff or being ahead of me, but the pulling has to stop.

I'd rather not rely on just a choke collar. I've got a wonder lead and a few other tools that have been great for heel but it seems like not pulling on the lead is a little different. To reiterate what I'm going for, I don't want to heel him the whole time we walk. I want him to have some freedom without the aggravation. What do you suggest?

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:54 am


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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by Dakotazeb » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:18 am

d265 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:36 pm
To reiterate what I'm going for, I don't want to heel him the whole time we walk. I want him to have some freedom without the aggravation. What do you suggest?
I see this as quite confusing for the dog. You want him to heel some of the time but not all of the time. My opinion is that when the dog is on a lead and going for a walk he should be at heel 100% of the time.
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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by shags » Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:09 pm

Let him empty out in your yard, then go for your walk with him at heel. When you come to an area where he can sniff and pee - please, not in someone's yard or the curbstrip in front of someone else's house, or on someone's hedge, tree, bushes, or vehicle! - release him with "okay" or whatever command you use to release, and when he's had his moments, put him back at heel.

When you get home, let him finish with a sniff and pee in your yard before you go inside.

Remember, marking is marking, and peeing is peeing. No marking while on lead at heel.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by Meller » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:47 pm

Look into a pinch collar, be gentle with it and he will learn to turn the pressure off by not pulling by himself.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by Sharon » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:52 pm

Often walk the JRTs around the block.

I use a command : "Don't pull!" and a jerk back. Worked well for me.
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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:08 pm

I use a choke collar ad a short solid core Check cord.15 or 20 ft. Make sure you have the collar on the dog properly. The sliding end should come over the dog's neck with the ring on the side nearest your leg at heel. Snap the check cord in the loose end. Your choke chain should be short enough so it does not slide over his head easily. You should start in a large area without distractions. Just tae up the cord and start walking, do not say anything. If he chooses not to come give him a quick yank and pay no attention to him say nothing and keep walking. If he forges ahead do an about turn and walk the other way.
After about 15 minutes stop and let him take a break for about 5 minutes. Don't look at him or talk to him keep your eyes on some distant object. Repeat to or three times. Make sure you do not pull steady on the check cord. The dog can't pull if you don't pull. It takes two.
When you get home do your normal routine. It will take only a few days for the dog to be very aware of where you are. Then you need to add distractions. he will get to where when you let him mess around on the end of the check cord you will never be able to feel him on the cord no matter how hard you try.
As others have Said don't let him sniff around and mark when he is on the leash.
Also I have never seen a dog that was hurt by a choke chain. You should never tie a dog with a choke chain or have him wear it unattended......Cj

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by d265 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:56 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:18 am

I see this as quite confusing for the dog. You want him to heel some of the time but not all of the time. My opinion is that when the dog is on a lead and going for a walk he should be at heel 100% of the time.
I don't see what's so confusing about it for the dog. The not pulling shouldn't be a command, just like I don't command him to not pee in my house. I only mentioned heeling because I'm not interested in having my dog always walk at heel

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by d265 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:02 pm

Meller wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:47 pm
Look into a pinch collar, be gentle with it and he will learn to turn the pressure off by not pulling by himself.
Thanks, was hoping not to rely on these but guess I'll give it a shot

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by d265 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:04 pm

Thank you, this is a useful response. I've seen this used on the whoa post and I don't know why I didn't think of this.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:37 am

d265 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:01 pm
cjhills wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:08 pm
I use a choke collar ad a short solid core Check cord.15 or 20 ft. Make sure you have the collar on the dog properly. The sliding end should come over the dog's neck with the ring on the side nearest your leg at heel. Snap the check cord in the loose end. Your choke chain should be short enough so it does not slide over his head easily. You should start in a large area without distractions. Just tae up the cord and start walking, do not say anything. If he chooses not to come give him a quick yank and pay no attention to him say nothing and keep walking. If he forges ahead do an about turn and walk the other way.
After about 15 minutes stop and let him take a break for about 5 minutes. Don't look at him or talk to him keep your eyes on some distant object. Repeat to or three times. Make sure you do not pull steady on the check cord. The dog can't pull if you don't pull. It takes two.
When you get home do your normal routine. It will take only a few days for the dog to be very aware of where you are. Then you need to add distractions. he will get to where when you let him mess around on the end of the check cord you will never be able to feel him on the cord no matter how hard you try.
As others have Said don't let him sniff around and mark when he is on the leash.
Also I have never seen a dog that was hurt by a choke chain. You should never tie a dog with a choke chain or have him wear it unattended......Cj
This is the procedure for teaching heel, exactly what I didn't want. Why would anyone leave a dog unattended with a choke chain on? Why did you feel the need to say that?
No, this is the procedure for teaching the dog to respect the collar and not pull on it. You will notice that no where in this description is there a "heel" command nor a requirement to remain by your side - the only requirement is to pay attention to where you are, where you are going and to respect the end of the lead.
The mentioning of the wearing of the choke chain is a reasonable response given your explicit statement that you wanted to avoid relying on it - that would be interpreted as you having some form of aversion to it and a misunderstanding of its use. The common sentiment is that they are harmful to a dog and dangerous - they are only harmful or dangerous if misused, and the most common misuse is thinking they are actually a collar and leaving them on a dog at all times.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:40 am

d265 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:02 pm
Meller wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:47 pm
Look into a pinch collar, be gentle with it and he will learn to turn the pressure off by not pulling by himself.
Thanks, was hoping not to rely on these but guess I'll give it a shot
The pinch collar is another version of the choke collar - same concept different design. They are not a control tool, they are a training tool. The training method is exactly the same for both. They do not need to be relied on - they are a tool for training and when the training is done properly they can be put away until the dog needs a refresher.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:44 am

d265 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:04 pm
Thank you, this is a useful response. I've seen this used on the whoa post and I don't know why I didn't think of this.
I simply gave you the down and dirty method to control your dog without teaching it anything. Your post indicated that is what you wanted. Most everyone on this board believes in teaching concepts to dogs and their responses came from that viewpoint.
I teach my dogs to respect the collar at 9 weeks of age.
PS - the Wonder Lead is a choke chain/pinch collar. Exact same training principle and methodology but more limited in its application - it cannot be used at a distance. The beauty of it is no one can mistake it for a permanent collar.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by cjhills » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:53 pm

Slistoe:
Thanks:
d265:
What Slistoe wrote is exactly right. This is not heel training the dog. This is only training him to respect the leash. No commands are given. The reason for the check cord as opposed to a leash is to allow him some freedom to do what he wants. the check cord is shortened and lengthened as I walk.
You have trained him to pull by pulling back. The more pulling you allow ,the more he will pull. You will wear yourself out trying to out muscle him.
My 100 pound daughter controls a 1200 pound horse easily because he respects the lead. Obviously she can not out muscle him.
Also you would not believe the things I have seen people do to tie their dogs. When writing on here we try to cover all bases. If you are offended by that I am sorry.
Don't let the dog Mark when you are walking him that is dominance and if you are the leader he does not need to be......Cj

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:13 pm

Pinch collar and heeling stick. Fastest method there is. You need a release command also like OK. Later, when he's a little older, you will WANT him to pull you as an isometric muscle builder. When you say heel, he should heel. When you say OK, he should pull.
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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:48 am

cjhills wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:08 pm
I use a choke collar ad a short solid core Check cord.15 or 20 ft. Make sure you have the collar on the dog properly. The sliding end should come over the dog's neck with the ring on the side nearest your leg at heel. Snap the check cord in the loose end. Your choke chain should be short enough so it does not slide over his head easily. You should start in a large area without distractions. Just tae up the cord and start walking, do not say anything. If he chooses not to come give him a quick yank and pay no attention to him say nothing and keep walking. If he forges ahead do an about turn and walk the other way.
After about 15 minutes stop and let him take a break for about 5 minutes. Don't look at him or talk to him keep your eyes on some distant object. Repeat to or three times. Make sure you do not pull steady on the check cord. The dog can't pull if you don't pull. It takes two.
When you get home do your normal routine. It will take only a few days for the dog to be very aware of where you are. Then you need to add distractions. he will get to where when you let him mess around on the end of the check cord you will never be able to feel him on the cord no matter how hard you try.
As others have Said don't let him sniff around and mark when he is on the leash.
Also I have never seen a dog that was hurt by a choke chain. You should never tie a dog with a choke chain or have him wear it unattended......Cj
I read through the responses to your query and I have to say this is a perfect answer to your exact requirement. You want the dog to walk on a loose lead. Cj gave you a method that does precisely that...WITHOUT the heel requirement. I considered giving a response, but Cj and others have it covered. You have several choices... all good ones.

If you don't like using a choke collar...don't. You can use a prong or pinch collar instead, if that floats your boat. You can use a flat collar too, or even a loop in the checkcord(made by passing the cord through the snap) but you will have to apply much more force when you yank the cord to accomplish the same thing.

RayG

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by Thirdy8special » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:42 am

Treats when dog does right.
Don't let them get in front of your knee.
Be consistent!
Good luck!
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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by DonF » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:24 pm

Let's see, heel but only sometimes? Your dog is either heeling or it's not. I did some obedience years ago and it was heel all the time unless I was standing still and then I could use the release command. But walking around and requiring heel part time and whatever the dog choose's part time probably won't work very well.
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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:32 pm

The OP clearly stated he was not looking for methods to train the dog to heel. He wanted to stop the dog from pulling when he takes him for a walk. The method I gave him will do exactly that. I suppose if a situation came up that required the dog to be at heel you could do that. The method I gave him does not require heel or anything else except no pulling and that the dog keeps an eye on the handler.
IMO it is perfectly acceptable to take the dog for a walk and let him do his thing as long as he does not have to drag the handler. If my dogs needed to drag something to build muscle it would not be me. I never want to feel him on the leash......Cj

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by JAY » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:15 am

To reduce his pulling frequency I trained my 2 year old GSP that the word "nopull" means I have a treat for him.

I too am aggravated when he pulls. Now when his leash rises off the ground I say "nopull" and he stops and comes back to me for his treat. After his treat he slows down or forgets to pull. And if the leash rises I say the word again.

For a year I had tried all sorts of collars and halters and found him overly enthusiastic about pulling relentlessly.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by oldbeek » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:36 pm

Sounds crazy but every dog I have ever trained I use a small rock pebble to smack them with when they get out to far. I pick up a rock and show them I am picking it up. They keep an eye on me all the time. All I have to do is cock my arm back and they are back at my side. I don't even use a lead. I'm getting old and I don't need them tripping me when walking on a narrow trail. I want the freedom of having them right in front of me but not running ahead.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by Steve007 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:30 pm

Meller wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:47 pm
Look into a pinch collar, be gentle with it and he will learn to turn the pressure off by not pulling by himself.
This is correct. There are, by the way, many different types of pinches -- also known as prong collars--- that don't look like pinch colors, so you need have no concerns about unknowledgeable people criticizing you. Look into J&J or max 2000 to get some ideas.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:46 pm

I use a choke collar because a dog can not pull back out if it and escape.

To teach dog manners on the leash, you say nothing, but as soon as the dog pulls on the collar, change directions abruptly. Don't tug, just take a firm grasp on your leash and walk off in another direction.

The dog will get jerked after you. You look surprised and cheerfully say "Ooops, What happened? Pay attention, Let's go." Then you walk in that direction until the dog pulls at which time you abruptly change directions. Believe me, you don't do it too many times before the dog is keeping a better eye on you. He won't be heeling, but he will be careful to know where you are and to not pull on the leash. The dog corrects himself, you haven't done anything at all except to walk. Most dogs decide it is a good game because the handler is cheerful about it and the dog can tell it is his own mistake.

I have three different dog walking modes. The loose leash strolling around is "controlled walking" and the only command is wearing the leash. it's about good manners.

Then there is "heel" where the dog is tight at your side and intensely focused on the handler. This is hard work for the dog so we practice it often but for short distances.

For the gun dogs (and the herding dogs) there is the command "follow" which is a very loose heel. Off leash, but stay within 4-5 feet of the handler. it means stay close and don't go running off and exploring. It's an easy one for the dog and handler. I can be half attention to the dog and he can split his attention between me and the surroundings.

When we are out for a stroll and some exercise, it is mostly controlled walking and the dog had better be head held up and moving smartly along. When I get to a good pee spot I stop, tell the dog OK and he is allowed to sniff and explore for a short time before we march off again.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by Ttown » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:43 pm

Im really digging all that you said Oregon Woodsmoke. It all makes perfect / simple sense to me.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:53 am

There are times you WANT the dog to pull to. That is the advantage of heel. I use a release command "OK" when I want the dog to pull. It is great exercise for the dog pulling against you. Then a simple "heel" command to bring the dog back to my side. Both commands are pretty important so were I you, I'd teach both.
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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:09 pm

d265 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:36 pm
I'm trying to make some decisions on the best way to train my GSP to walk on a lead. He's young and likes to pull, to the point that it aggravates me. We've worked on heel and he's improving, but we live in town and some days we don't have time to train and it's just walking through the neighborhood. I don't mind the dogs sniffing and peeing on stuff or being ahead of me, but the pulling has to stop.

I'd rather not rely on just a choke collar. I've got a wonder lead and a few other tools that have been great for heel but it seems like not pulling on the lead is a little different. To reiterate what I'm going for, I don't want to heel him the whole time we walk. I want him to have some freedom without the aggravation. What do you suggest?
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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by DonF » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:53 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:48 am
cjhills wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:08 pm
I use a choke collar ad a short solid core Check cord.15 or 20 ft. Make sure you have the collar on the dog properly. The sliding end should come over the dog's neck with the ring on the side nearest your leg at heel. Snap the check cord in the loose end. Your choke chain should be short enough so it does not slide over his head easily. You should start in a large area without distractions. Just tae up the cord and start walking, do not say anything. If he chooses not to come give him a quick yank and pay no attention to him say nothing and keep walking. If he forges ahead do an about turn and walk the other way.
After about 15 minutes stop and let him take a break for about 5 minutes. Don't look at him or talk to him keep your eyes on some distant object. Repeat to or three times. Make sure you do not pull steady on the check cord. The dog can't pull if you don't pull. It takes two.
When you get home do your normal routine. It will take only a few days for the dog to be very aware of where you are. Then you need to add distractions. he will get to where when you let him mess around on the end of the check cord you will never be able to feel him on the cord no matter how hard you try.
As others have Said don't let him sniff around and mark when he is on the leash.
Also I have never seen a dog that was hurt by a choke chain. You should never tie a dog with a choke chain or have him wear it unattended......Cj
I read through the responses to your query and I have to say this is a perfect answer to your exact requirement. You want the dog to walk on a loose lead. Cj gave you a method that does precisely that...WITHOUT the heel requirement. I considered giving a response, but Cj and others have it covered. You have several choices... all good ones.

If you don't like using a choke collar...don't. You can use a prong or pinch collar instead, if that floats your boat. You can use a flat collar too, or even a loop in the checkcord(made by passing the cord through the snap) but you will have to apply much more force when you yank the cord to accomplish the same thing.

RayG
I'm with Ray. Great response! If you don't want to call it heel, call it something else. Bottom line is it is teaching your dog to walk quietly at your side. You might be able to do yourself a huge favor. If someone is putting on obedience clinics where you live, take one. Pay atterntion to how the choke collar goes on. Put it on your wrist to start, left wrist for the left side and right wrist for the right side. Pull it snug and then lighten up on it. the ring the collar goes through will automatically let up pressure. If it's on wrong it won't release the pressure. Also get the right size collar. If the collar is to long, you give it a jerk and the chain will come up and slap your dog on the side of the face, a no-no! It's all really much simpler to show than to explain. As for the video, I don't believe I'd use the leash around the waist. In order for you to put pressure on that, the dog will have to be out in front of you, you don't want the dog walking in front of you. Sudden turns into and away from the dog teach the dog to pay attention to you. Go to a class, if the instructor is any good at all it will be more than worth the money!

Forgot to mention, the proper place for your dog on heel is it's head even with your knee.
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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by cjhills » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:13 am

NO. This not about training heel. It is for people who do not ive where you can let the dog run loose when you go for a walk. iit a totally different then a formal heel. If you want that he needs to be train to respond to the heel command. That is easy enoughto do.
Either way I do not allow my male dogs to mark when they are with me. I am the top dog. There is only one. When the dog knows that we are al lhappy
If you use the method I use you will get to where no matter what you do, you will never feel the dog on the check cord. He will always be aware of your position. Dogs naturally do that.........Cj

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by polmaise » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:43 pm

Personally, I train my own dogs to walk at heel from puppies without any apparatus ,but the environment is not always available for everyone who lives in suburbia , or even Alaska with wolves.
Heel (imo) is a place not an activity. Walking a dog is movement and continuation of that place, walking a dog with a lead should be seamless ,if it's not ,then perhaps the 'place' has not been established .
I do however ,have used apparatus such as 'Slip lead' , choke chain, Halti , Long line, Wonder lead type and all manner of tools in the 'Tool box' to correct learned previous behavior of a dog that has not understood the 'place' by the owner/handler , and in most cases (99.99%) have been used incorrectly on application because they were advised to use them by someone as a fix on the internet or even worse 'advise from a friend that is well liked, because they have good dawgs' .
Obedience style 'heelwork' is not for the dog in the shooting field, that doesn't mean that Obedience style heelwork is wrong!, but it also doesn't mean that a bird dog should do it like it was in an obedience ring. I would want mine looking in Front , not looking at me !
If I had a retriever or even three I would want them to be walking at heel and remaining at heel when I WALKED without a lead...If I have a bird dog it does the same in town ..just not pointing all the crows .

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by LilCharlie » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:57 pm

New to Bird dogging, but not to leash training.

A choker is a great tool when used properly. It's not meant to strangle a dog into not pulling, but to enhance the correction you give them when they try to pull.

Keep him on a short lead and give just a little tug and a verbal command when he even tries to start pulling. It's not a yank to hurt him, it's a small tug that gives him a squeeze 360° around his neck that breaks the train of thought saying "let's run!" Eventually he'll get it. If he doesn't respond to a light correction, walk him in a circle, have him sit, reset and start again. The goal is he's at your side, leash dangling, taking in the stimulation of a good walk, but doing it on the terms you set. It can take time, but soon he'll get that "when we walk, I walk at heel." Then you can give him a little slack to stop and sniff for a few seconds here and there, so long as he keeps up.

Body language and tone, as always, are paramount. Be patient, firm, and clear. "This is what we're doing now. Please participate. Thank you."

Play time can happen at home or at the off-leash park, he needs to learn to walk well on the leash and behave outside of your home for his own safety and yours.

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Re: Walking Bird Dog on Lead

Post by Riverbendsetters » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:31 pm

New to the Group.. I use a English Slip lead from day one with a pup when walking, they catch on pretty quick if not to stubborn..
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