Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

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bdneale
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Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by bdneale » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:47 pm

Hello, Ive been a long time forum reader but first time poster.
I recently acquired a field bred english cocker pup back in late February. Brought him home at 7 weeks old and everything has been going great so far. The only thing that has been sort of challenging was integrating him into the family with my two other older (non-hunting) dogs. It took quite a bit of work and many long walks to get everyone to accept each other, but I feel like we are finally there.

The new pup "Peppy" has been excelling in basic obedience, whistle commands, house training, retrieving, and crate training.
We have a huge fenced in yard, we do daily training and have progressed from basic retrieves to a thrown bumper into brush/tall grass.
I keep everything short and super fun. From time to time I plant bird wings in the tall grass/brush for him to find, and we excel every time!

At 4 months old I decided it to introduce him to a frozen dove. During one of our training sessions in the brush I planted the frozen dove for him to find. He found it no problem, sniffed it for a second and after a couple of "good boys" from me, he picked it up tail wagging. With a slight tug from the check cord he brought it right to me. I let him mouth it for a little bit with lots of praise. I tried to take it from him a couple of times and give it right back to him. He definitely didn't want to give it up, he started to get aggressive with me by growling each time I went for the bird. He even bit my hand one time. Normally I have a no tolerance for this behavior, but what was I supposed to do when he had a bird in mouth?
When I finally got the bird from him and put it back in my vest, he gave me another growl and snap. I corrected him with the usual pinning down on the ground method and made sure he got the point.

Well that was around 3 weeks ago and I haven't tried it again since. During those 3 weeks I put down a no tolerance attitude for any kind of biting/nipping towards any person. We have had a couple of "come to Jesus meetings" but i think he gets who is boss pretty clearly now. His general puppy nipping has curbed significantly.

With his training, I slowed down a bit and have been working on everything but bird work. Just the past couple of days Ive started tying wings to bumpers for our retrieves, he brings them straight to hand no problem.

Do you guys think its right to try again?
Should I do it in a different way?
Your opinions are all very highly valued and I definitely thank you for taking the time to read this!!

PS: I do have access to live pigeons

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Tim Tufts
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by Tim Tufts » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:31 am

First let me say that I have generally worked with pointing dogs but have some experience with cockers and springers.
He's not shy of game after the first go round so I wouldn't be overly concerned with his "puppy" behaviour with the first one. Prey drive is extremely important with any breed but getting a cocker that has it is rare in these times.
I'd suggest that you start working on his hunting pattern and getting him to "hup" on command. Getting him into live birds as the reward.

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DonF
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by DonF » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:15 am

Answer to your question is pretty simple for the vast majority of dog's. Don't take it from him, have him give it to you, simple. When he comes back with the bird be down on one knee. You'll notice doing that will create a pocket against your leg. I'm right handed. Take your right hand and put it over his back and pull him in. Left hand under his chin with thumb hooked to his collar, do not touch the bird. Now take the right hand and stroke him down the side pulling to you every time, and be praising him gently. Three of four pets, pay attention now, last pet you hook two middle fingers under the flap of skin in front of his leg and lift up and the same time give your release command. The majority of dog's don't like that and will turn their head to remove your hand. Just as the head moves release the collar from your thumb and grab the bird. The dog has to spit the bird to remove your hand. Immediately once you have the bird straighten out the fingers lifting him at the flank letting him go. He will immediately go back for the bird you already have. Do not let him think you took the bird! Two or three times like that and you should have him giving up the bird easily. You can start with a retrieving dummy, don't need to start with a bird. The point is to teach him to give you the bird when you tell him to. Took much longer to write this than it does to do it!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

bdneale
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by bdneale » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:55 pm

Thank you for the replies Don and Tim, I will definitely be giving that a try.
Do you think I should try again with a frozen bird, freshly killed bird, or locked wing live pigeon?
We have no problem with releasing bumpers.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:10 am

Good post Don.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by DonF » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:14 am

No problem releasing bumper's, go to frozen pigeon. Let it thaw about 20 min before using. Use a live pigeon and you are using a distraction!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

oregon woodsmoke
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:43 pm

I wouldn't take it from him and give it back. That seems confusing to me. A bird is not something you are sharing or playing with like a toy. Just take it and praise.

Work with other items so he thoroughly knows a command to give an item to you, whatever it is, whenever you ask for it. Then when he brings the bird, give him the command to give it to you and praise like crazy. He'll be fine. Just go on from here. it's a big plus that he is very keen for the bird.

My family has had springers and they will turn themselves inside out for praise and approval. A Cocker can't be that much different. Beam at him and tell him he is a clever dog when he hands you the bird. He'll learn fast to trade the bird for some approval.

He sounds like a great dog and is going to be something wonderful to hunt with.

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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by polmaise » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:01 pm

bdneale wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:47 pm
Hello, Ive been a long time forum reader but first time poster.
I recently acquired a field bred english cocker pup back in late February. Brought him home at 7 weeks old and everything has been going great so far. The only thing that has been sort of challenging was integrating him into the family with my two other older (non-hunting) dogs. It took quite a bit of work and many long walks to get everyone to accept each other, but I feel like we are finally there.

The new pup "Peppy" has been excelling in basic obedience, whistle commands, house training, retrieving, and crate training.
We have a huge fenced in yard, we do daily training and have progressed from basic retrieves to a thrown bumper into brush/tall grass.
I keep everything short and super fun. From time to time I plant bird wings in the tall grass/brush for him to find, and we excel every time!

At 4 months old I decided it to introduce him to a frozen dove. During one of our training sessions in the brush I planted the frozen dove for him to find. He found it no problem, sniffed it for a second and after a couple of "good boys" from me, he picked it up tail wagging. With a slight tug from the check cord he brought it right to me. I let him mouth it for a little bit with lots of praise. I tried to take it from him a couple of times and give it right back to him. He definitely didn't want to give it up, he started to get aggressive with me by growling each time I went for the bird. He even bit my hand one time. Normally I have a no tolerance for this behavior, but what was I supposed to do when he had a bird in mouth?
When I finally got the bird from him and put it back in my vest, he gave me another growl and snap. I corrected him with the usual pinning down on the ground method and made sure he got the point.

Well that was around 3 weeks ago and I haven't tried it again since. During those 3 weeks I put down a no tolerance attitude for any kind of biting/nipping towards any person. We have had a couple of "come to Jesus meetings" but i think he gets who is boss pretty clearly now. His general puppy nipping has curbed significantly.

With his training, I slowed down a bit and have been working on everything but bird work. Just the past couple of days Ive started tying wings to bumpers for our retrieves, he brings them straight to hand no problem.

Do you guys think its right to try again?
Should I do it in a different way?
Your opinions are all very highly valued and I definitely thank you for taking the time to read this!!

PS: I do have access to live pigeons
Run this highlighted bit ,bye me again ....from the pups view of things ?

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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by slistoe » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:33 pm

Does your dog get fed free choice or do you put feed out once/twice a day. I would suggest you put it out once per day and take control of the feed bowl. He doesn't get to eat till you say he can. Work on it so that if you tell him to stop eating and let you have the bowl back he will stop and let you have the bowl. Same thing with anything he has for toys - establish that they are yours and he only gets them because you allow it. Everything is yours - even the meaty steak bone - you can hold it out and he won't take it till you say so. Everything belongs to humans.

bdneale
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by bdneale » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:08 pm

Thanks Oregon Woodsmoke, you make a great point about how that would be confusing taking and giving. We've been working on a drop it command, and I think we are progressing nicely. I will be reintroducing frozen doves here in the next couple of days and let you guys know how it goes.

Slistoe, I feed twice a day. He really isn't that food crazy. I can pick up his food/bully stick/bone or whatever anytime straight from his mouth and won't get any type of negative reaction from him.


Polmaise, so I guess from the pups point of view he found a bird and got a lot of praise for finding it and bringing it to me. He thought it was his bird and didnt want to give it up and got aggressive......I think i answered your question? I see how it's valuable looking at his perspective as well.


DonF, a frozen bird straight from the freezer and a teething puppy was probably not a good combination to begin with. Ill let it thaw out 20 min next time. Thanks for the tip.

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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by slistoe » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:05 pm

bdneale wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:08 pm
Slistoe, I feed twice a day. He really isn't that food crazy. I can pick up his food/bully stick/bone or whatever anytime straight from his mouth and won't get any type of negative reaction from him.
That is good - but you really need to find a way to safely and quickly cure him of thinking he can be possessive of anything around humans.

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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by polmaise » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:02 pm

bdneale wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:08 pm
Polmaise, so I guess from the pups point of view he found a bird and got a lot of praise for finding it and bringing it to me. He thought it was his bird and didnt want to give it up and got aggressive......I think i answered your question? I see how it's valuable looking at his perspective as well.
Perhaps he seen it as you taking it from him ,rather than him bringing it to you?
Some at 4 months old are sometimes not quite ready ,as in the 'process' with low value items in relation to fur or feather such as bumpers to achieve a seamless transition in the training , just a thought.
There are some at 8 weeks old that bring back game and look like Superstars ,but that doesn't always mean that those who don't ,won't catch up or even supersede .

Aggression in a 4 month old pup is rare. Induced conflict of give and take is common. I have one here in for training that want's to bury game after it has found it ,rather than have conflict of 'giving it up' . I'm working the last two weeks on training the process by back chaining to the 'Hold' calmly next to me with 'give and take' ,also using a table/place mat as a fulcrum . So far it's working with this little 'Undertaker' ,with the help of 'Re-call' in her training also. Be a few weeks before any pigeons or even cold game will be used in the 'Process' for me or this one ,until it is 100%. Best of luck with yours.
Regards
Robert

bdneale
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by bdneale » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:57 pm

Sorry to bring back up an old thread but I thought I would give everyone an update on Peppys training and progress....
He is 8 months old now and we have been making some progress.
No more aggression issues, the nipping and growling have stopped.
Gun breaking, water retrievals, place board training, all have been going well.
Still having a hard time with him getting to drop a dead bird.

Shot my first pen raised quail over him on Monday, had to real him in on the check cord and pinch him on the flank to get him to drop it.
He will retrieve anything else to hand fine, but he treats birds like gold.
I kept a dead quail and pigeon in the fridge to use for retrieving while im in the back yard with a place board.
Threw him a couple bumpers and did great, next i tried the dead bird.
Had to real him in on check cord and make him drop it.
I want to turn my back and walk away from him but I'm starting to think he is chewing the birds.

This is probably something ive caused being a first time dog trainer.
Should i seek a professional before it gets any worse?
Suggestions?

Thanks

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crackerd
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by crackerd » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:03 am

bdneale wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:57 pm
This is probably something ive caused being a first time dog trainer.
Should i seek a professional before it gets any worse?
Yes, but that was yesterday's mail. Unless you and Pepe can hop a big bird for Scotland to see a man (Polmaise) about a dog, a real dog, you need to seek out whatever local spaniel resources are available to you. "Suggestions?" - Whereabouts are you located for starters, so recommendations might be made.

MG

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K9BigDog
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by K9BigDog » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:42 am

DonF wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:15 am
Answer to your question is pretty simple for the vast majority of dog's. Don't take it from him, have him give it to you, simple. When he comes back with the bird be down on one knee. You'll notice doing that will create a pocket against your leg. I'm right handed. Take your right hand and put it over his back and pull him in. Left hand under his chin with thumb hooked to his collar, do not touch the bird. Now take the right hand and stroke him down the side pulling to you every time, and be praising him gently. Three of four pets, pay attention now, last pet you hook two middle fingers under the flap of skin in front of his leg and lift up and the same time give your release command. The majority of dog's don't like that and will turn their head to remove your hand. Just as the head moves release the collar from your thumb and grab the bird. The dog has to spit the bird to remove your hand. Immediately once you have the bird straighten out the fingers lifting him at the flank letting him go. He will immediately go back for the bird you already have. Do not let him think you took the bird! Two or three times like that and you should have him giving up the bird easily. You can start with a retrieving dummy, don't need to start with a bird. The point is to teach him to give you the bird when you tell him to. Took much longer to write this than it does to do it!
I did something very much like this with my setter last year. On about 50% of her retrieves she was so excited that she just didn't want to let the bird go. I got down a knee, lightly hooked the collar with my left hand and slid my right hand down her back and then did the "flank lift" and slid my left hand over to the bird just like DonF describes. The first time or two I gave her a little squeeze on that flap of skin. It took maybe 4 or 5 times but completely solved the problem. She now either hands the bird right to me or drops it at my feet.

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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by DonF » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:22 pm

polmaise wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:02 pm
bdneale wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:08 pm
Polmaise, so I guess from the pups point of view he found a bird and got a lot of praise for finding it and bringing it to me. He thought it was his bird and didnt want to give it up and got aggressive......I think i answered your question? I see how it's valuable looking at his perspective as well.
Perhaps he seen it as you taking it from him ,rather than him bringing it to you?
Some at 4 months old are sometimes not quite ready ,as in the 'process' with low value items in relation to fur or feather such as bumpers to achieve a seamless transition in the training , just a thought.
There are some at 8 weeks old that bring back game and look like Superstars ,but that doesn't always mean that those who don't ,won't catch up or even supersede .

Aggression in a 4 month old pup is rare. Induced conflict of give and take is common. I have one here in for training that want's to bury game after it has found it ,rather than have conflict of 'giving it up' . I'm working the last two weeks on training the process by back chaining to the 'Hold' calmly next to me with 'give and take' ,also using a table/place mat as a fulcrum . So far it's working with this little 'Undertaker' ,with the help of 'Re-call' in her training also. Be a few weeks before any pigeons or even cold game will be used in the 'Process' for me or this one ,until it is 100%. Best of luck with yours.
Regards
Robert
Good post. 4 mos to young? Probably with that pup. Seems that people get a put and suddenly go off the deep end and what it finished by 9 wks! Let it be a pup when it's a pup. learn to read your pup and it will tell up when it's ready for the next step!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

bdneale
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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by bdneale » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:38 pm

After watching a more experienced trainer work his dog, Ive come to realize its been kinda me causing this the whole time.
If i give the dog a chance to pick up the bird and have him walk beside me for a moment or two everything goes a little smoother.
The rushing in and pulling the check cord was taking his reward away, which is the retrieve with bird in mouth.

Don't really think he is chewing birds anymore, he brought one quail to me still alive.
I just think all i needed was a little patience.

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Re: Bird Introduction Gone Wrong?

Post by polmaise » Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:17 am

Patience is a virtue.
Often, if the only tool you have is a hammer' every problem is a nail.
Good that you now have contact with someone locally that can show a different approach .
atb . Look forward to hearing about the progress.

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