Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post Reply
Sureshotshane
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:32 pm

Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by Sureshotshane » Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:58 pm

Hello all,

My names Shane. I live in the Sierra Foothills of CA. After a lot of deliberation, phone calls, and research I’ve put a deposit on a DD pup.

I will be spending the next couple months preparing and should have the pup by mid-December, provided all goes well with the birth, etc.

I’m a hunter first and foremost but also intend on running the dog in hunt tests and have made contact with some locals run their dogs in them.

I manage a ranch and that’s where I’ll be starting a pigeon colony. The coop is already built just need to go get some birds really.

I plan to bring the dog to work with me daily. I can’t have the dog killing chickens (or any livestock for that matter but really only worried about the chickens). I like to let the hens run about during the day. Do folks have problems with dogs that are trained to not kill chickens and it impacting their bird hunting drive?

Secondly, the pigeons will also be visible to the dog and in a location that we will undoubtedly be around them often. Is it okay to have the dog around the pigeon coop? Similar question as above, will dogs that are habituated to the pigeons in the coop lose the drive for them when in the field training with the same birds? I have a feeling it won’t matter because most people with pigeons I imagine have them on their property.

I don’t want to stifle any prey drive in the dog but I can’t have a dog that is unpleasant around livestock since I really would like to bring the dog to work with me.

Also a little worried I won’t ever be able to train the dog not to kill the ranch cats. I don’t have cats at home, not a cat person but the ranch has a few cats that the owners enjoy. Most of them are inside cats, but some of them are outside. Thankfully the cats have a gated and fenced area they mostly keep too.

Thanks.

User avatar
SwitchGrassWPG
Rank: Champion
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:02 pm
Location: NW Oklahoma

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm

Shane,

Welcome and good luck. Most dogs can be trained to do or not do what we want. It just takes time, consistency and the right timing. Early introductions and lessons are important to be successful hunting/living companion and not have to correct negative behaviors later. Being around chickens and pigeons shouldn't cause negative effects. The dog should quickly learn the difference between daily life and hunting/field life. It may be equally important to have those two lives occur in two separate locations so the connections can be made early. Also, your routines and mannerisms should be different for both and preparing for both. Its almost like you're training yourself at the same time... Soak up all the various methods for training your dog and find a mentor/buddy to help. Its a lot easier training a dog with an extra set of hands/eyes and a little knowledge than by yourself.

One of the biggest challenges you may encounter is based on your breed of choice and it's lineage. Highly suggest communicating your environment with your breeder and other DD owners.
Only thing worse than a bad dog is no dog at all...

http://www.switchgrasswpg.com

User avatar
BlessedGirl
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:20 pm
Location: Washington

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by BlessedGirl » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:36 pm

As long as your puppy is around the cats from the beginning and gets disciplined if he chases them, he should be fine. I've had cats in the past and our dogs were good with them for the most part. I don't remember them chasing our cats either. Only problem was with a couple helpless kittens. One mysteriously disappeared and the German Shepherd injured one. I don't know if she was raised around cats, but maybe that made the difference. You should be fine.
"Heaven isn't for good people. Heaven is for forgiven people."

Sureshotshane
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:32 pm

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by Sureshotshane » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:11 pm

Switch grass - when you say it would be best to have the two lives occur in separate locations. How far apart are we talking? The area I plan to do a bit of training in varies between 1/4 - 1 mile from where the dog will be spending the majority of its waking life. I will also most be taking daily walks through many of those same training areas, is that problematic? Not that it’s the sole areas I will train but it’s easy to imagine that areas in closer proximity will get used first and most. There’s a bunch of different places to train though, the ranch is only 160 acres itself and it is surrounded on three sides by a couple thousand of acres of federal land.

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by Garrison » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:51 pm

Shane,

You bring up some valid concerns, DD’s can be tough on critters, they are bred to be. And you also bring up some possibly unrealistic expectations. Our family has owned farm dogs, (heelers and border collies) and we have owned bird dogs. They have very different traits for their very different functions. My heeler did come to work with me everyday and was a non-issue, he would even come to the bar on a Friday and sit on a barstool while we had a beer. Bird dog pups are a much different animal, they are a handful, as they should be. They are going to find trouble every chance they get, and they sure as heck can’t be trusted to run a farm. They need to be supervised 100% of the time when off leash, or they need to be kenneled, both for their safety and your employment.

Now, if you had a good kennel set up so you could get your work done without getting fired for your pup being a pup, and you were able to work that dog on the property with all of your attention a couple times a day with some socialization mixed in. You would have yourself and ideal set up.

I put a fence with a man gate around my pigeon loft so the dogs and wildlife don’t bother them, and the chickens are put up if the bird dogs are out. My German dog, albeit much less German than yours is good with our cat but ruthless with anything else that has fur. I have known a few that were just as content to dispatch a cat.

What area are you in?

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

Sureshotshane
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:32 pm

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by Sureshotshane » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:32 pm

Garrison,

I never intended to imply that the dog would have free reign of the property all day or be unsupervised. I don’t need it to be a farm dog, but I do need it to be good on the ranch.

It does seem like I’ll need to be more vigilant than my previous hunting dogs. I’ve had an Airedale and WPG. Both were taught that cats and chickens were totally forbidden with no problems. The Airedale would get attacked by this one house cat all the time and had a lot of self control really. The cat was pure evil, it was the only cat that ever survived more than a couple weeks, all the others would get eaten by foxes, skunks, fishers, or lions in short order. That cat outlived the Airedale - who ironically was eaten by a lion, I do mean eaten. It was hard to tell whether the dog was looking for trouble and defending the property or the lion was looking for a meal because it happened so close to home. From the evidence left in snow I think the lion lured her away.

There are lots of places the dog could be safely placed while I work. Various different fenced in areas, garage, barn, truck bed, or crate. With that said, the dog will be supervised off leash quite a bit. I would like the dog to have a certain amount of freedom but that really depends on how the dog acts on how much freedom it can have. I suppose my concern is that when (and I’m sure it will happen) the dog tries to harass stuff, that me correcting the issue won’t impact the hunting drive.

The chicken coop is like Fort Knox and the pigeon coop is pretty sturdy as well.

My buddy has a GSP and he claims that the reason his dog is bad at pointing and hunting birds is because he had to punish the dog for trying and eventually succeeding at killing chickens. I just think the dog needs to be trained properly.

I’m in the Central Sierra foothills southeast of Sacramento.

Random question: how do dogs do if they touch electric fence? I won’t be using electric fencing to contain the dog but there are areas for livestock that have some powerful wire around (6 joule charger) and I can just imagine how easy it would be for a dog to run into it.

User avatar
SwitchGrassWPG
Rank: Champion
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:02 pm
Location: NW Oklahoma

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:42 pm

I don't think you need a great distance between the two. The dog needs to be taught around the animal area isn't hunting area, but whatever other direction/location you go to should be associated with field work/hunting. I've even known people to physically change the dog's collar as a key for field work/hunting was about to occur.
Only thing worse than a bad dog is no dog at all...

http://www.switchgrasswpg.com

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by Garrison » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:01 pm

Shane,

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Most dogs can be trained to avoid anything, I have never known a dog to understand punishment after the fact. A correction on a check cord and a leave it alone can train them to leave stuff be, but I would rather not need to correct a dog for a situation of my own doing. Birds put away, gate closed, dogs out is what I have done for years without issue.

A stiff jolt of electricity will certainly have lasting ramifications, the dog will remember the area and never want any part of it again. That might mean you will have a dog that will refuse to go through a fence from that point forward if it is mounted on one. I have a 10 year old dog who was snake broke at 1 1/2 and will clear the area if one is around to this day.

It certainly sounds that with some planning and a bit of effort, you will have an ideal place to raise a pup. I would certainly consider a decent kennel and dog house set up a necessity if the pup is going to be with you every day.

Was asking what location, because I have friends in Sonora who owns the local fly shop. Love the area.

Best of luck with the pup,

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

fishvik
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1070
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: Idaho Falls, ID

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by fishvik » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:22 pm

Shane, I own a GWP, not that much different from a DD, and a GWP X Lab along with an old GSP. No problems with the pigeon coop with my dogs and the GWP pup (18 mos old) still points pigeons in the field along with my other dogs. We have 4 cats and other than loving to play with one they never bite it. As for taking your dog with you, have to disagree with Garrison. I take my pups to the local brew pub and usually meet up with folks that have brought their Labs, GSP's, Springer's, Visulas, and numerous other breeds of dogs. Generally no problems and they all settle down after the initial sniff fest. Actually I believe that type of socialization is best for bird dogs, they learn to tolerate other dogs and strange people. Seems everybody at the pub wants to pet a dog, particularly the bird dogs. But then I live in a hunting part of the country.

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by Garrison » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:26 pm

fishvik wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:22 pm
Shane, I own a GWP, not that much different from a DD, and a GWP X Lab along with an old GSP. No problems with the pigeon coop with my dogs and the GWP pup (18 mos old) still points pigeons in the field along with my other dogs. We have 4 cats and other than loving to play with one they never bite it. As for taking your dog with you, have to disagree with Garrison. I take my pups to the local brew pub and usually meet up with folks that have brought their Labs, GSP's, Springer's, Visulas, and numerous other breeds of dogs. Generally no problems and they all settle down after the initial sniff fest. Actually I believe that type of socialization is best for bird dogs, they learn to tolerate other dogs and strange people. Seems everybody at the pub wants to pet a dog, particularly the bird dogs. But then I live in a hunting part of the country.
I don’t think we are in disagreement at all, socialization is as important as any other part of training, I could show you pictures of my dogs in just about every environment around and all over the country. I also said it sounds like he has an ideal set up to raise a new pup. My point was, bird dog pups can be a real handful, and he should probably plan for that i.e. a kennel, if he is trying to get some work done.

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

Sureshotshane
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:32 pm

Re: Intro and question about dogs and pigeons

Post by Sureshotshane » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:38 pm

Garrison - Sonora isn’t to far, I’m a little bit north. I don’t get down that way much but there is a wildlife area near Sonora that I’ve hunted a few times.

Thanks for the input. I chose a DD because I want an energetic dog with lots of prey drive. My Airedale was an incredible dog. Once I got in the market for a dog, I found out that a lot has changed in the Airedale realm and it’s all but impossible it seems to find a hunting line. Most of my hunting is not upland birds. I do a fair bit of everything, probably more of big game hunter than anything. I used to be one of like 45 people (not sure the actual number but it was low) who had a trapping license in CA. Now it’s illegal. I do a good amount of predator calling but only when furs are nice because I’m saving up furs and tanning them for some projects I have in mind. Some years I do more waterfowl hunting than others, mostly depends on the weather. I love to eat cottontail but finding good places to go is getting increasingly difficult. Most of my upland bird hunting is mountain quail and grouse. I chase the other species of quail too but the mountain variety is my favorite. I always combine upland hunting with my in state or out of state big game hunts. I would be remiss if I left out my love for turkey hunting and squirrel. So a versatile dog seems perfect, that’s what they used to say of the Airedales.

Post Reply