Encouraging Natural Retrieve

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BlessedGirl
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Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by BlessedGirl » Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:54 am

What do you guys do to encourage natural retrieve, and how do you teach the dog to give you the toy/bumper/bird without making them hard-mouthed? I've tried encouraging my 10-month-old setter, Indy, to carry things around in her mouth since she was little. She likes hauling random things around in her mouth whether it's a stick, a stuffed animal or her dog brush (yeah, it's her favorite thing to grab), and she has no apprehension about coming to me with the object in her mouth. She doesn't drop it though.

Indy doesn't have any formal training on that yet, but I know she has the potential. Once she went in the creek to grab a piece of wood I was trying to get my other dog to fetch for me. When she has things in her mouth I just praise her, etc., and until this point, I have made a point not to grab things away from her. I read that I might make her hard-mouthed if I do the wrong thing. I want to take the next step now, but don't want to wreck it. What do you guys think? Am I doing it right, or should I change something? And how should I go about the next step?
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Sharon
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by Sharon » Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:25 pm

next step :

Highly suggest that beginners follow a tried and true program.
Highly recommend:

https://www.gundogsupply.com/pestpefisetd1.html
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Coveyrise64
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by Coveyrise64 » Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:02 pm

The PK Perfect Retrieve Video is the one I recommend for people that want or need a reliable retrieve. Jon uses a method that introduces the e-collar early in the training and eliminates the toe pinch or ear pinch. I like this method for someone that is doing their first trained retrieve. That doesn't mean you can't rely on developing a natural retrieve. The keys to nurturing the natural retrieve are a solid recall, a reliable hold, and a release command. There are bits of good information in the video on retrieving even if you choose not to do the e-collar trained retrieve.

https://www.gundogsupply.com/perfect-retrieve-dvd.html

cr
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fishvik
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by fishvik » Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:51 am

I have trained all of my dogs with the natural retrieve method and have never had to use an e-collar, but most have had a strong retrieve inclination that I just improved on. I encourage them to get things and carry them. To get them to release I tell them mine and if they resist I put my hand over their muzzle and press their upper lip to their teeth. If that doesn't work I put pressure where the jaw meets the skull. This usually does it. I praise them when they give it up. I never fight them for it or allow them to play tug of war with a dummy or bird. I do this both in formal training and sitting watching TV with one of their toys. The only time my dogs have ever shown hard mouth is when they are retrieving a wounded bird that is spurring them or beating them with their wings. All of my dogs have been breeds known to be natural retrievers or crosses of two that are.

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BlessedGirl
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by BlessedGirl » Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:16 pm

Thanks for the info. I'm using Mo Lindley's book for general training. It goes into finer detail on a lot of things, but he doesn't give a lot of info on natural retrieve so if his little tidbit doesn't work maybe I'll order Perfect Retrieve DVDs.
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Mosby
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by Mosby » Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:11 pm

BlessedGirl wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:16 pm
Thanks for the info. I'm using Mo Lindley's book for general training. It goes into finer detail on a lot of things, but he doesn't give a lot of info on natural retrieve so if his little tidbit doesn't work maybe I'll order Perfect Retrieve DVDs.
Contact Jonesy at Jonesy's Gun Dogs. He has worked with Mo in the past and has a 3 day clinic with Mo on DVD you can buy that might help fill in some of the blanks. I just bought it myself. Haven't watched it yet. Good guy to talk with.

oregon woodsmoke
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:09 pm

I don't know what the setter people recommend, but this is what I do while training a nice happy retrieve. When the dog gets to me, I don't take the object. I pull the dog in next to me, right into contact with my side, and pet and praise for a few seconds. Then I take the object, being careful to not "clang" the teeth. The dog gets more approval after I have the object. You can press the lip gently against the teeth or lift up a bit on the web of skin at the flank. Roll the object out, don't yank it out, be a little bit careful.

You don't have to be wildly enthusiastic about praise. Your dog can feel your approval and you can just give a quiet "good" if you aren't a demonstrative person. I'm more enthusiastic, but whatever your style don't neglect the approval.

As a completely separate exercise, decide how you want the dog to deliver to hand. Without the fetch, train the dog to come in close and sit by your side. Or come in close and sit in front of you. Or come in close and stand in front of you. Once this exercise is really solid, then you can combine it with the fetch and the dog will already understand what you want and will already be solidly in the habit of coming close and into whichever position it is that you want to receive your bird from..

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Garrison
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by Garrison » Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:31 pm

oregon woodsmoke wrote:
Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:09 pm
I don't know what the setter people recommend, but this is what I do while training a nice happy retrieve. When the dog gets to me, I don't take the object. I pull the dog in next to me, right into contact with my side, and pet and praise for a few seconds. Then I take the object, being careful to not "clang" the teeth. The dog gets more approval after I have the object. You can press the lip gently against the teeth or lift up a bit on the web of skin at the flank. Roll the object out, don't yank it out, be a little bit careful.

You don't have to be wildly enthusiastic about praise. Your dog can feel your approval and you can just give a quiet "good" if you aren't a demonstrative person. I'm more enthusiastic, but whatever your style don't neglect the approval.

As a completely separate exercise, decide how you want the dog to deliver to hand. Without the fetch, train the dog to come in close and sit by your side. Or come in close and sit in front of you. Or come in close and stand in front of you. Once this exercise is really solid, then you can combine it with the fetch and the dog will already understand what you want and will already be solidly in the habit of coming close and into whichever position it is that you want to receive your bird from..
During the initial stages or first birds, if you want them to release something without a fuss, foregoing any of the lip roll, and teeth, discussion, gently touch/squeeze their flank. They will instantly hand it to you and see what your hand is doing, instead of having to take their prize away. It gently switches their mind off the prize and onto something else.

Garrison
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Willie T
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by Willie T » Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:11 pm

What most call a natural retrieve is a basic trained retrieve, without force fetch. Simplify and set your pup up to succeed.
Stoking desire for a natural retrieve is fanning the dogs instinct.

Shaping the natural retrieve is done with obedience. Obedience sessions in the yard away from birds is where that starts. A good way for you to end up with what you want is to write down the delivery you desire. Then break that delivery down to each simple step your pup has to do. Teach each step in the yard independently and away from birds and proof them. Then you and your dog have a clear line of communication with no confusion.

For example: I hunt a versatile that hunts upland birds and also works as a dedicated retriever for waterfowl and doves. I require the dog to deliver at heel and hold the bird until I ask for it, at which time he is required to put it in my hand and release it.
Breaking that down he must:
1-have a solid recall
2-come to heel until released
3-hold the bird until told to give it up
4-leave it when given the command
Other useful commands to train what I desire:
5-whoa
6-sit
Now one at a time in the yard I teach
“here” and proof it.
“Whoa” and proof it.
At this stage I wait on “sit” with a pointing dog. It is up to you. Sometimes when a dog gets confused it will default to a known command, so I save sit until after the point is steadied up.
Now that I have “whoa”, I will whoa the dog and place a bumper in its mouth and teach “hold” then put my hand under the bumper and teach “leave it”.
Next comes “heel”.
Don’t get in a hurry and establish a solid foundation. Resist the urge to “test it” on a retrieve until the commands are solid.

We have been playing fetch all along but now that we have the tools we can shape it.

For training the retrieve I want I can now toss the bumper. As soon as the dog picks it up I command “here”. If the dog is sloppy with the bumper I can anticipate and command “hold it” on the way in. I want the bird delivered at heel so I am going to set my pup up to succeed by putting a fence or a bush behind me to eliminate the drive by. I teach the delivery at heel to prepare for advanced stuff down the road. (It is not necessary for a purely upland dog). As the pup approaches I command “heel”.
With the dog at heel I put my hand under the bird and command leave it. We work on this enough that the dog anticipates the commands and develops the habits to naturally exhibit the delivery I desire. Adjust to fit the delivery you desire.

Good luck with your pup.
Willie

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Garrison
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by Garrison » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:47 am

Willie T wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:11 pm
What most call a natural retrieve is a basic trained retrieve, without force fetch. Simplify and set your pup up to succeed.
Stoking desire for a natural retrieve is fanning the dogs instinct.

Shaping the natural retrieve is done with obedience. Obedience sessions in the yard away from birds is where that starts. A good way for you to end up with what you want is to write down the delivery you desire. Then break that delivery down to each simple step your pup has to do. Teach each step in the yard independently and away from birds and proof them. Then you and your dog have a clear line of communication with no confusion.

For example: I hunt a versatile that hunts upland birds and also works as a dedicated retriever for waterfowl and doves. I require the dog to deliver at heel and hold the bird until I ask for it, at which time he is required to put it in my hand and release it.
Breaking that down he must:
1-have a solid recall
2-come to heel until released
3-hold the bird until told to give it up
4-leave it when given the command
Other useful commands to train what I desire:
5-whoa
6-sit
Now one at a time in the yard I teach
“here” and proof it.
“Whoa” and proof it.
At this stage I wait on “sit” with a pointing dog. It is up to you. Sometimes when a dog gets confused it will default to a known command, so I save sit until after the point is steadied up.
Now that I have “whoa”, I will whoa the dog and place a bumper in its mouth and teach “hold” then put my hand under the bumper and teach “leave it”.
Next comes “heel”.
Don’t get in a hurry and establish a solid foundation. Resist the urge to “test it” on a retrieve until the commands are solid.

We have been playing fetch all along but now that we have the tools we can shape it.

For training the retrieve I want I can now toss the bumper. As soon as the dog picks it up I command “here”. If the dog is sloppy with the bumper I can anticipate and command “hold it” on the way in. I want the bird delivered at heel so I am going to set my pup up to succeed by putting a fence or a bush behind me to eliminate the drive by. I teach the delivery at heel to prepare for advanced stuff down the road. (It is not necessary for a purely upland dog). As the pup approaches I command “heel”.
With the dog at heel I put my hand under the bird and command leave it. We work on this enough that the dog anticipates the commands and develops the habits to naturally exhibit the delivery I desire. Adjust to fit the delivery you desire.

Good luck with your pup.
Willie
Excellent description and detail.

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

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BlessedGirl
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by BlessedGirl » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:40 pm

That's a lot of information! Willie, that post really helped break it down into manageable steps - thank you. :) I started keeping a training logbook and I think it helps me stay on track better. Right now I'm trying to get my dog solid on recall. She knows what I mean when I call her, but lots of times is too distracted to obey or sometimes to even hear me. So I tried working her in the driveway, cuz nearly everywhere else she is waaaay too distracted, mostly by birds. I have a lot better success in the driveway. We've also been working on standing still and heeling. She's a pretty good student when she's not distracted, but it's really hard to keep her attention. Even treats don't work all the time. So once I get these three steps solid we can go further into the retrieve training.
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BlessedGirl
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by BlessedGirl » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:48 pm

I was kinda wondering, how long of training sessions would you all recommend? I think with working on all three things in each session it gets rather long, but I'm not sure I'd have time to do it twice a day. I usually don't have time to train on the days I work, either. :(
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Coveyrise64
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by Coveyrise64 » Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:39 pm

When I work recall I always have a way to reinforce the command. It can be a checkcord at first and then the e-collar once the pup shows consistent compliance to a verbal. Later I will overlay the Tone for a silent recall and reinforce with the e-collar. Without a way to reinforce the recall you will have a hole in your foundation.

I prefer to work several short sessions during the day. I seldom mix in other obedience training during a session. This can lead to confusion. I want the dog's focus on the task at hand so when I introduce the command in the next session the dog still has some recall of the expectations. I look for consistency in the task worked on before introducing another command.

cr
VC TJ's Highfalutin Hawkeye MH, UTI R.I.P. 4/29/05-12/18/18

Thunderhead's All Jacked Up R.I.P. "My Buddy" 9/9/09-1/27/14

VC TJ's Miss Filson MH, UTI R.I.P. 5/13/03-10/15/14

"I'd rather train for perfection than fix the problems of mediocrity" ~ Me

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Encouraging Natural Retrieve

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:00 am

Your dog IS retrieving and carrying, just not delivering. Setters can be a bit difficult because some are so soft. In your case I would do a regular FF program and I still recommend Evan Grahams. It is the bible on FF. You want to remember this: EVERY dog can go through the identical training program, IT IS ONLY THE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE THAT DIFFERS. Not dropping a bird or sticking on a bird is very, very, rarely a problem with setters. He's playing with you. Don't make this a big deal, it isn't unless the dog stops and eats the bird. Then it's kind of a big deal. :D :D
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