Hey all, I'm relatively new around here (and dog training in general). I am hoping to pick the brains of the experienced folks on here who would be willing to share wisdom with a new guy.
I am working on force fetching our family dog, a 2.5 year old male standard poodle. His basic obedience is reliable. The end goal is quail hunting (primarily retrieving, some flushing), and perhaps waterfowl if we ever move back to waterfowl country.
I have been following the '10 minute retriever' book by John and Amy Dahl and I am going through force fetching.
He reliably will "hold". I was teaching fetch command and progressing slowly over a period of a couple weeks (1 session per day, right before I go to bed). I have been using the e-collar on the lowest stimulation (the ear pinch was not going over well originally, hence the change to the e collar) to teach fetch.
My method (from the book) is to give the "fetch" command and concurrently give a continous stimulation until he obeyed and took the bumper from my hand. I will randomly give commands with the absence of stimulation. I progressed (over about 2 weeks) to bringing the bumper to the ground. We do about a dozen reps per session. One day, he made a breakthrough and would take the bumper from the ground (as long as I had a finger on the bumper).
However, since the breakthrough, my dog has completely stopped obeying the fetch command. He will just stand and stay still when given the command (stimulation or not makes no difference) . I have tried a session with no stimulation (to reduce the pressure on the dog) with no success. Holding is still reliable. I have gone through 3 straight sessions where the dog is completely uninterested in the fetch command, up to this point.
Do any of you have advice for a newbie trying to learn how to train a gun dog? Any troubleshooting tips regarding my force fetching dilemma?
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Troubleshooting force fetching
Re: Troubleshooting force fetching
I am not a force fetch expert by any means. Force Fetch is brutal and refusing is not an option for the dog. I think you are trying to go to fast. If he is refusing you need to back up.
Your dog needs to be collar condition, so he understands he can turn the stim off by complying. Anything else is just frying him.
You need him going hard for the dummy on the command. I like them jumping to get it
I also think earlier in the day would be better timing, so you and the dog have some time to think it over after you are done with your session.
Taking the dummy off the ground is hard for some dogs. Sometimes using something they like to retrieve helps.
Control your temper and make sure he understands. It can be frustrating......CJ
Your dog needs to be collar condition, so he understands he can turn the stim off by complying. Anything else is just frying him.
You need him going hard for the dummy on the command. I like them jumping to get it
I also think earlier in the day would be better timing, so you and the dog have some time to think it over after you are done with your session.
Taking the dummy off the ground is hard for some dogs. Sometimes using something they like to retrieve helps.
Control your temper and make sure he understands. It can be frustrating......CJ
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gonehuntin'
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Re: Troubleshooting force fetching
If the dog is taking the bumper, dowel, etc. because he wants to, it is not force fetch. That's where your problem lies. Now that the dog has given you the finger, you have nothing to fall back on.
Here's an article I did that you can build on. This method keeps you out of trouble and a dog CAN be totally done by this method, though I personally, just start them this way then go to the ear, then the stick. When that's done, I go to the collar. These days really, for hunting, you can just substitute the collar for the stick.
JOWLS; THE FORGOTTEN STEP.
Force fetch is so misunderstood on nearly every board that is not a retriever specialty board. People try to short cut it, change it, use too much pressure, use too little pressure. There is a step between HOLD and the EAR PINCH. That forgotten and omitted step is the JOWL PINCH.
Why is the JOWL PINCH so important and how is it done? The JOWL PINCE is the step between HOLD and the EAR PINCH that teaches in a very, very, mild way for the dog to accept pressure and open his mouth. When going from HOLD to the EAR PINCH directly, the dog has no idea WHY his ear is being pinched and what his response should be. They will lock their jaws, won't open them, and wonder why the heck you're hurting them.
The JOWL FETCH is performed after HOLD has been taught. Perform it in the same place, dog at your side or on the table next to you. The trainer places his hand on the dog's muzzle, wrapping over the muzzle. Then the two upper jowls are pinched GENTLY against the canines, the command FETCH given and just enough pressure applied to get the dog to open his mouth. When he does, pull up on the jowl' so they are not pinched between the teeth and the dowel, stick the dowel in and command HOLD. Keep doing this until when you simply touch the dog's muzzle and command FETCH, he pops his mouth open and reaches for the training buck. If he drops the buck, which he shouldn't after HOLD has been instilled, pick up the buck, command FETCH, pinch the jowl, and place the buck back in the student's mouth.
That's it. Once the pup is popping his jowl's open and reaching forward, he's ready for the ear pinch and in a very short time, many times only a day, will take the buck when the command FETCH is given and the ear pinched. I have forced some dog's entirely with the jowl and never gone to the ear, but I don't recommend that. I'm an ear pincher.
Hopefully those reading this can immediately see why it works so well and why the step should not be skipped. It eliminates many of the problems associated with force fetch. In this day of short cuts to dog training, this is one EXTRA step that can actually turn into a short cut.
Here's an article I did that you can build on. This method keeps you out of trouble and a dog CAN be totally done by this method, though I personally, just start them this way then go to the ear, then the stick. When that's done, I go to the collar. These days really, for hunting, you can just substitute the collar for the stick.
JOWLS; THE FORGOTTEN STEP.
Force fetch is so misunderstood on nearly every board that is not a retriever specialty board. People try to short cut it, change it, use too much pressure, use too little pressure. There is a step between HOLD and the EAR PINCH. That forgotten and omitted step is the JOWL PINCH.
Why is the JOWL PINCH so important and how is it done? The JOWL PINCE is the step between HOLD and the EAR PINCH that teaches in a very, very, mild way for the dog to accept pressure and open his mouth. When going from HOLD to the EAR PINCH directly, the dog has no idea WHY his ear is being pinched and what his response should be. They will lock their jaws, won't open them, and wonder why the heck you're hurting them.
The JOWL FETCH is performed after HOLD has been taught. Perform it in the same place, dog at your side or on the table next to you. The trainer places his hand on the dog's muzzle, wrapping over the muzzle. Then the two upper jowls are pinched GENTLY against the canines, the command FETCH given and just enough pressure applied to get the dog to open his mouth. When he does, pull up on the jowl' so they are not pinched between the teeth and the dowel, stick the dowel in and command HOLD. Keep doing this until when you simply touch the dog's muzzle and command FETCH, he pops his mouth open and reaches for the training buck. If he drops the buck, which he shouldn't after HOLD has been instilled, pick up the buck, command FETCH, pinch the jowl, and place the buck back in the student's mouth.
That's it. Once the pup is popping his jowl's open and reaching forward, he's ready for the ear pinch and in a very short time, many times only a day, will take the buck when the command FETCH is given and the ear pinched. I have forced some dog's entirely with the jowl and never gone to the ear, but I don't recommend that. I'm an ear pincher.
Hopefully those reading this can immediately see why it works so well and why the step should not be skipped. It eliminates many of the problems associated with force fetch. In this day of short cuts to dog training, this is one EXTRA step that can actually turn into a short cut.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Re: Troubleshooting force fetching
CJhills is on target regarding the need to back up and take your time. There is a phrase that goes dog training is like a zipper. If you get stuck, back up a little and start over.
It's also a pretty good idea to do a lot of short exercises rather than one long. Since I presume your Standard Poodle (good breed!) lives in the house, just 30 seconds or a minute of work every time before he goes outside is easy to do. Of course, that's not all you need, but repetition is the foundation of all skills and that kind of short frequent work will benefit you. Stick a sign on the door to the backyard to remind you. Putting on an E collar takes a little time, so I think you'll find this is more conducive to an ear pitch. No comment regarding Gonehunting''s "jowl pinch" because I don't know, but it certainly sounds reasonable to me.
Someone who keeps his dogs in the house has an advantage over those who keep them in kennels simply because of the increased and continuing interaction... presuming he takes advantage of instantly available very short training sessions.
I have force-trained several house dogs that became terrific retrievers. Serious upper-level obedience people do so all the time with all sorts of breeds, and generally without using e-collars. Nothing wrong with doing so, of course, but to gain the benefits of keeping dogs indoors, it's a little cumbersome and certainly in the early stages.
It's also a pretty good idea to do a lot of short exercises rather than one long. Since I presume your Standard Poodle (good breed!) lives in the house, just 30 seconds or a minute of work every time before he goes outside is easy to do. Of course, that's not all you need, but repetition is the foundation of all skills and that kind of short frequent work will benefit you. Stick a sign on the door to the backyard to remind you. Putting on an E collar takes a little time, so I think you'll find this is more conducive to an ear pitch. No comment regarding Gonehunting''s "jowl pinch" because I don't know, but it certainly sounds reasonable to me.
Someone who keeps his dogs in the house has an advantage over those who keep them in kennels simply because of the increased and continuing interaction... presuming he takes advantage of instantly available very short training sessions.
I have force-trained several house dogs that became terrific retrievers. Serious upper-level obedience people do so all the time with all sorts of breeds, and generally without using e-collars. Nothing wrong with doing so, of course, but to gain the benefits of keeping dogs indoors, it's a little cumbersome and certainly in the early stages.