CLOSE Bird Steadiness.......

[TheMorningRise]

How do you all like to train for a bird under the nose?

I am working a still fairly young (19 month old) GSP and she has the following down; stop to flush, steady to wing - shot - fall.

Currently, I am revisiting the puppy days and getting her to stop on first scent, as she likes to work in closer to the bird after she already picked up scent. This is going as it should.

This particular dog will hold to wing-shot-fall-release........as long as she is around 6ft or more away from the bird. If she stops on first scent and is say 15 feet away, that launched/flushed bird can fly right towards her and over her and she will not move, until released.

However, if that bird 3, 2, 1 foot away, she will move on the bird at the flush.

I'm thinking of more or less setting up something similar to a whoa post (so she can not lunge) and dropping birds right in front of her. Or bringing her in on planted birds and having someone hold a check cord and transmitter (flank collar, which she understands) and stimulating when she breaks.

As with anything else, I'm sure it is just repetition.

I also understand a bird that close is difficult for even seasoned dogs.

[vizslatrainer]

My boy Vizsla is difficult when he is within 3 feet of the bird too. The closer to the bird (inside 3 ft) he is when he makes game, make the odds pretty good that he will break on flush. If the bird is under his nose, he will break. Im working the problem as best I can, by trying to get my hand between his nose and the bird. Work in progress. This past weekend, he did his famous cat walk trying to locate the bird in very light wind and the brace mate stole his point because he would stop, sniff and move closer. Somehow I feel if he fixes one issue, the other will go away with it. If any one has any ideas Im open. (Not trying to steal your thread....LOL)

I might add he has 3 legs on his Master Hunter.

[TheMorningRise]

My boy Vizsla is difficult when he is within 3 feet of the bird too. The closer to the bird (inside 3 ft) he is when he makes game, make the odds pretty good that he will break on flush. If the bird is under his nose, he will break. Im working the problem as best I can, by trying to get my hand between his nose and the bird. Work in progress. This past weekend, he did his famous cat walk trying to locate the bird in very light wind and the brace mate stole his point because he would stop, sniff and move closer. Somehow I feel if he fixes one issue, the other will go away with it. If any one has any ideas Im open. (Not trying to steal your thread....LOL)

I might add he has 3 legs on his Master Hunter.

No worries.

Good to hear (for my sake, not yours) that a dog half way to MH does the same thing.

It is why I am really focusing on stopping at first scent. I'd rather have dogs lock up at a distance and then go in to search for the bird. If necessary, I can relocate the dog.

Again, those very close birds are difficult for event the most experienced dogs. But, I want dogs there because as you know, in a test, there could be zero wind, bad scenting conditions, dog coming across the bird from the wrong angle, etc. and they could end up on top of the bird.

If you are testing this Fall, good luck and get those last 3 passes!

[Garrison]

In my opinion, a dog needs to learn how much pressure it can exert on a bird before it will take to the air, long before any high pressure desensitizing work should be attempted, if ever attempted at all. It sounds like your pup has learned it can get right on top of them without consequence, (lost birds). There are exceedingly few circumstances that are not man made where a dog can get that close to a bird. I can recall a handful of times during very late season snow hunts when wild birds were hunkered down tight enough that a dog was allowed a point within three feet. It is your job as a trainer to replicate this if you don’t have access to wild birds.

Too late on the launcher, wrong approach angle towards the launcher, and too many planted birds will result in a dog that crowds birds as you describe. Again, all are man made issues. Your dog will benefit much more from birds that it learns it made fly away than it will from being allowed/rewarded for getting much too close. Wild bird contacts, or setting your training situations up to be much closer to wild bird contacts would be my first goal. Once your dog realizes it is a necessity to exert less pressure on the bird without a command or input from you, then I would do a deep dive into how to properly overlay a stand command with a flank collar que. Much less pressure and much better results than flying birds in a young dogs face if you want it’s feet planted.

Garrison

[TheMorningRise]

In my opinion, a dog needs to learn how much pressure it can exert on a bird before it will take to the air, long before any high pressure desensitizing work should be attempted, if ever attempted at all. It sounds like your pup has learned it can get right on top of them without consequence, (lost birds). There are exceedingly few circumstances that are not man made where a dog can get that close to a bird. I can recall a handful of times during very late season snow hunts when wild birds were hunkered down tight enough that a dog was allowed a point within three feet. It is your job as a trainer to replicate this if you don’t have access to wild birds.

Too late on the launcher, wrong approach angle towards the launcher, and too many planted birds will result in a dog that crowds birds as you describe. Again, all are man made issues. Your dog will benefit much more from birds that it learns it made fly away than it will from being allowed/rewarded for getting much too close. Wild bird contacts, or setting your training situations up to be much closer to wild bird contacts would be my first goal. Once your dog realizes it is a necessity to exert less pressure on the bird without a command or input from you, then I would do a deep dive into how to properly overlay a stand command with a flank collar que. Much less pressure and much better results than flying birds in a young dogs face if you want it’s feet planted.

Garrison

Sound advise.

She is already familiar with a flank collar. So no worries there.

I fully agree with all points made. Which is why I have gone back to bringing her into a couple of birds on a check cord once again. As soon as I see; her head turn to acknowledge scent, put her head down, slow her pace, etc. (all signs that she is in scent) and she does not stop, I am launching the bird (with no shot). If she does hold right away, but then takes a step, I launch (again with no shot).

When she does hold and there is a flush when I want there to be, there are shots and a retrieve (again, at a manageable distance, she is steady to fall and release). I am just wanting to get her solid when she is on top of them. Because, at some point, it is going to happen.

[Garrison]

It sounds like you have a smart dog, and you are headed in the right direction. You really don’t need to kill too many birds once they know what to do with them. The dog has already figured out what they are, just being able to smell them and hearing a blank pistol (which I hope you own) when they are handled correctly and fly away is more than enough of a reward for dogs who live to find birds. The best trainers I have had the good fortune to know and work with rarely if ever have a shotgun in the training field.

Steadiness and composure around game is the goal you asked about, mixing in shotguns and retrieving will only complicate things for you as the handler, and increase anticipation for the dog. I would focus on the steadiness first, and then work on retrieving.

Garrison

[slistoe]

If you are wanting the dog to be steady with a bird in its face, then train for that. Never mind all the other stuff that simply complicates the whole scenario. Put the dog on whoa and increase the distraction level. If you want to work the dog on standing tall while you throw a bird in its face or release a bird from under its belly or chase a clip wing around in front of it you can get there - but all of that is a skill of its own which has little to do with the finding and pointing of birds or the retrieval of shot birds. It is manners and obedience. Once you have thoroughly taught the skill, if the dog should stumble on a bird and lock up with its nose 8" off the bird you will have the confidence to walk in for the flush.

[TheMorningRise]

These dogs and this game……..

So much fun! So many headaches. lol

Did a different set up yesterday (Thursday) evening.

Put 4 launchers out, in 3 locations. Ran her free. No check cord.

Put one bird in tall grass. Put the double set on the edge of tall and short grass. Put the other bird in the field with short (shin high) grass.

She hit the bird in the field first. Stopped first scent. Probably 5-8 yards away. Flagged a bit because she wasn’t sure. Was steady to fall with a clean retrieve.

Hit bird 4 in tall grass seconds. Stopped first scent. Flagged a bit again. She was about 10 yards. Steady to fall but I went and picked up the bird.

Hit the double set last. Seemed to slow but not stop so I launched a bird. Stone cold stop. I then heeled her away as d then sent her. Brought her back to that set. She stops stone cold. Stiff. Staunch. Beautiful. Roughly 5-6 feet off the bird. Work in, launch the bird. Bird flys over her head. She just watched it. Sent her for the retrieve. We were done.

Was a great session.