Training: Heel

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:06 pm

How do you all train your dogs to "heel?"

I've got Justus with "here" down perfect, but with "heel" he still wants to pull on the leash/checkcord and run off and away. Any tips and techniques would be greatly appreciated.

Also, in the hunt test / field trial world, what are the most important commands to teach?

1. Woah
2. Here or Come
3. Heel?
4. ? etc.

dhondtm · Post by **dhondtm** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:47 pm

Heel came up before in one of my threads on here.
http://www.gundogforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=460

I started using the gentle lead, sudiegirl suggested using the wonder lead. I'm sure both work equally as well. I've read they use the gentle lead for obedience training and start early with them on it any time you go for a walk. In time supposably they will start to heel on there own. I go on and off it and when it is on her I tell her to heel. I want her to know the command and respect the difference of on and off leash, etc...

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:06 pm

Im with Sudie the wonder lead does a good job in helping to teach heel. IMO whoa is the word they must know not only for hunt tests or field trials but in everyday life. If I were to start over I would start teaching whoa a lot sooner. By teaching I mean with young dogs just getting the word familiar to them and the desired response. SDGORD

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:36 am

How does the wonder lead work? Is it sort of stretchy?

Ok, so I did a little looking... I guess it works somewhat like a chain choke cord, right?

So you just get your dog into the heel position (standing by your left side) and say "heel." Then you graduate up to using the e-collar and the lead at the same time, as when teaching "here." Is that about right?

ginia · Post by **ginia** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:16 am

When I'm just walking Cassi around the neighborhood, I teach her heel with treats. She knows "watch me" so when she is not walking nicely, I say watch me, heel, and she gets in position and looks for her treat. It's a slow process though; as my husband said, we also use the gentle lead when we are headed for a destination. Good luck; I'll be watching this one for tips!

Post by **grant** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:43 am

I think I got from Brenda and Rick that the wonder lead is good because it will stay loose while the dog is walking, when a corection is needed, you can give it a pop.

Walks with Carl and Bell did wonder with heel and whoa. Although I never did heel too much. They know it, but never burned it into them like whoa. I just didn't want them to always sick to me when its hunting time.

Anyway, I would take walks. Dog will want to move ahead of you. Give pop on leash and say heel. Keep walking. For first few days the dog will keep moving ahead of you, everyonce in a while you completely stop. Let the dog get yanked by the leash. This will help make them pay attention to you. Now, by this point I had already touched on whoa with bell. So, I whould stop and say whoa...... Man, to much to type, I'll do a video.......

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:03 pm

Wonder lead is good, or I still like the old fashioned choke chain for heeling. You can give short sharp snaps then loosen up to get the desired effect, just don`t let them pull on it. I even use it to take dogs to the field for backing lessons.

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:19 pm

we use heel as a lead in to teaching whoa. we do not go to the e-collar with heel until well after the dog is pretty much finished. the dog picks up on the concept of heel in a couple of seesions and we go straight to whoa work from there. As young as your vizsla is, I would be very hesitant to be working whoa for quite a while yet. as far as what is most important in trials and such? whoa is a definate first, that is what you use for steady to wing and shot work, stop to flush and if need be backing. depending on the dog, good whoa work and steady to wing will make backing, stop to flush and steady to shot and kill pretty easy. the next important thing (in my opinion) for trial work is turning on name and/or taking a lead off of a handlers direction. yes, you need to stay on course but if there is an area that your dog has not covored that you would like it to, turning that direction, and singing a name once or twice should in most cases cast the dog right where you want it.

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:20 pm

That's just the thing with the choke chain. I've got one, but Justus pulls on it until he's coughing and gagging, and doesn't care a bit. He just keeps pulling.

We quit using it after the first time because of that. I'm hoping that the Wonder Lead does much better. He needs to learn Heel for two reasons: 1) he's going in the show ring and 2) he's going to have to stay by my side at times when dangers such as cars and busses lurk. I don't even care that he really distinguishes between here and heel, just so long as he comes to me and walks beside me.

He does know a release to hunt command. Every time we would go on a walk and I wanted him to get his energy run out, I'd say "Let's go!" while casting him with an underhanded motion (kind of like bowling using his collar instead of a ball). Now I just say "Let's Go!" and he's off like a bullet.

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:21 pm

and remember, to much "here" "whoa" or "heel" to early will really bring a dog in and make it less likely to range well.

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:08 pm

I used a plastic pinch collar to teach heel. I don't like the choke chains because it seems like dogs always pull against it anyway, but that pinch collar is fantastic. It stays loose till he starts pulling, and it only took a couple times for him to realize it pinches his neck when he pulls.

Overall, though, once Fletch learned that heel is pretty much a leashless leash, he began heeling much better off the check cord than he does on it. He's not perfect, but good is good enough for me. Just make sure you ALWAYS use your release command when he can stop heeling, so he learns that one command of "Heel" lasts until you say it's over. (Instead of "Justus, heel....heel...heel Justus...heel") Like you, I like to use heel when I want him to stay outta trouble. It's also great for when they go selectively deaf and don't come when called...then I make Fletcher heel next to me for a good 10 minutes or so, so he learns if he won't come back when called he ain't going anywhere. (As an aside, he has a comfortable range, so that's not a worry)

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:03 pm

to me, the thing that makes wonderlead/string whatever you would like to call it so effective is that it stays in the proper place.... right behind the dogs ears. take your fingers and hook them behind your cheeks and pull.... feel nice? i thought not. your dog will probably not think so either. the second that it complies with your command, the pain stops. to me that is a ton more humane (and effective as far as letting the dog know EXACTLY what it is doing wrong and what it can do to comply) since it is not choking it ever unless it is doing something wrong.... like pulling. so it is positive reinforcement for good behavior and negative reinforcement for "bad." they generally figure it out pretty quickly. you can call the folks at lion country supply if you have any other questions, and they will explain it further. good luck!

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:54 pm

I will take a picture of the wonderlead on a dog tonight and post it.
It is completely diff from a choke collar in that it does NOT go around the neck as a regular collar, choke chain or leash.
It is also NOT streatchy - it is made of the same material as a lasso and resembles a frozen rope.

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:56 pm

i use the choke chain but i do not let the dog just pull on it. short "snaps" with it for a correction and it seems to work pretty well. if the dog is not expected to stay at heel, i put the lead on a normal collar

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:16 pm

OK, I may be guilty of touting the wonder-lead but I assure you that I am not getting a kick back.
My wife was horribly embarrassed by me during this little story but I have to share it.

This guy always walked his dog in front of our house, well actually the dog walked him, this dog was literally dragging the guy by our house at the end of a 20 foot leash. This went on daily for months.
I kept telling Sudie that I was going to go out there and put that dog on wonderlead.
We joked about it a while, then one day the guy stopped and asked about our dogs and commented on how well behaved they were. He said that he wished his dog would walk better on a leash etc… then he went on to say how the dog was still just a puppy and that he was sure the dog would grow out of pulling on the leash. He next asked how old my dogs were I responded 7 and 9 months (at the time) – the man was taken back and he said his dog was 3 years old. I could not resist I said hang on I will be right back, and I went into the house and grabbed the wonderlead.
I told the guy that in 2 minutes his dog would not pull on the lead. He looked at me in disbelief as I secured the lead around his dog. At which point the guy said he may bite you!
I assured him that the dog would not be able to bite me. This dog bit - whined – jumped – pulled – and dangled there on the wonderlead for about 15 seconds trying to get away –
I thought the guy was going to punch me for abusing his dog in the street – I told the guy to hang on a sec… then I started to heel the dog … the dog heeled just fine and stopped as soon as I did, we did left turns and right turns stops and starts etc… The guy thanked me profusely and all was well.
My wife was very embarrassed that I had gone out and fixed this guys dog so I vowed not to do it again.
I noticed the next few days the dog was heeling for the man and we continued to wave at each other … anyway now the dog is back to pulling his master down the street – nothing works without consistency.

Here are a few pictures of wonderlead on Condor. The last one shows how you can fold an ear under the lead for stubborn dogs.

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QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:34 pm

Nice shots Eric,

Its good to see someone showed you the proper way to use the lead! :roll: I have had custom ones made for me, whaich are a littel more stout, mine are used a little more than the average dog man.

The difference between the wonder lead and a choke chain are great.
For one, the lead is always at the ready for a correction. No delays like the CC. The wonder lead could be used in two different directions, in a "P" shape for dogs that pull away from you, or in a "B" form for those that crowd. The CC, to be effective could only be used in the "P" form.

The position of the WL is important. As the pictures Eric posted shows. The loop should be positioned under the pivot of the jaw and the loop where the rope threads through on top should be directly behind the point of your dogs head.

The Wl is also effective teaching a dog to quarter also.

Phil
REO

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:13 pm

yes that was embarrassing, but as I remember it, eric jumped the fence, ambushed the guy, knocked him on the ground (which didn't take much effort since his dog was already dragging him down the street), threw the wonderlead over this poor dog's head, and began dragging him all over the road with wonderlead until he heeled properly. no... not that bad, but it was SO embarrassing that it may as well have happened that way!!! :roll:

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:20 am

Does the Wonder Lead ever wear out? I noticed that Phil has some custom ones made to be a little more stout, so it got me thinking about it.

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:48 am

how about a Yes and No answer. The little rubber stopper on our old one no longer holds the loop tight, but i still use it, and Phill does not use the little rubber stopper on his custom made leads. A piece of rope does not wear out very quick.

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:19 am

It won't lose it "springy-ness?"

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:50 am

The WL is actually a little heavier made pigging string! or a little lighter made lariat. Made with the same material.

The reason I have my own made is I like a thicker rope. I use mine almost everyday, it does hurt the fingers a bit after a while. I also have mine made with different "washers" just cause I do different things with them.

When the washer wears loose on the WL a small dab of crazy glue on the indise hole will fix the problem. let it drt without sticking to the rope part. The friction of the glue will solve the slipping problem.

It will take a long time for you to wear one outon just one dog.

Phil

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:54 am

steven,
i guess it could eventually lose its springiness if you left it sitting in water or something, but ours is going on a year and is still springy. dirty, but springy. as eric mentioned, the rubber stopper is shot, but i called LCS, and they replaced it since we wore it out so quickly. from what i understand, that is not supposed to happen so fast. i guess if your husband is using it to train every dog on the block though.....

and phil, thanks for the fixing tip.... maybe eric can fix the old one in between neighborhood dog training sessions

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:09 pm

phil,
are your leads the same diameter as a lariat? 3/8 i think. They were alot easier on the hands.

Texrab · Post by **Texrab** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:35 am

One question bout the wonder lead. My dog wants to bite at it. How do you stop this? I use a pinch collar but want to learn how to use the wonderlead which I already own.

bigcountry · Post by **bigcountry** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:08 am

Imnew here but when I teach a dog to heel all I need is a lead and a stick. If he gets in front of me I hit him on the nose with a stick. If he drags behind I yank the lead . With the stick or pulling on the lead I say heel. This usually works the first day of training or shortly thereafter.

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:37 pm

bigcountry
i have trained (NOT professionally) several different dogs in my lifetime since i was a little girl using many different methods as i learned from my mistakes.... all with good to very very good results. i have only recently started using the wonderlead and will never go back!!! i have learned that, in general, when you can avoid swinging something at the dog's face or any other part of his body for that matter... i think it is probably a good idea. i like the wonderlead b/c not only is it easy for the handler to figure out, but it is also easy for the dog to figure out exactly what you want him/her to do. also, when the dog screws up the collar is hurting him.... as opposed to you inflicting pain on him by swinging something at him. used correctly, there is very little room for error with the wonderlead. i am not saying that your method does not work or that mine is better..... and there is certainly a time and a place for just about everything. but as they saying goes.... there are many different ways to skin a cat, and i am glad that your way works for you and your dogs and that my way works for me and mine.