richard walters

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:00 pm

Ive commented on his books on this sight and have got some pretty negative responises to his books. Is gun dog the only bad book of his? Are his retriever books bad cause I have a lab and thats what Ive been going off of. If so have I been training my dog wrong all along couse my breeder (heritage kennels) said that I was using ecelent books and most of there dogs are MH. Is it too late to change If these books are bad she is 1year and on hand signals?

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:46 pm

Walters was a retriever trainer. I do not know the history behind retriever training but I do know that Walters was a big influence in it back in his day. He developed certain methods to take his dogs to a higher level of performance. I followed his book "Game Dog" in the training of my now 8 yr old lab. There are now easier methods that could be followed but you could always look at it in the old saying "if it aint broke dont fix it".

His book "Gun Dog" was written for the purpose of training pointers. His way of training one was poorly written from what I understand. I never read the book just recalling some reviews read on it.

If you have your dog at a SH level than you are doing a fine job IMHO. And there is no reason to change the method in which you are following. If you have your dog at SH level than I assume you have attended HT's before and know what a SH dog is capable of?

Don · Post by **Don** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:54 pm

Gun Dog is the only one of his books I have ever read. I have heard other's say that water dog is a much better book, I would not try it. The problem is he already proved to me that he's willing to write a book about a subject he know's little about. I have read one book on retrievers that I though was good but don't reacll the name of it, it was weitten by James Spencer. But even a retriever book may not work for you as you said else where your mainly intrested in upland game. I thing that Bill Tarrent did a book on springer's but can't recall. I do know he was a big fan of saghtions kennels in england, maybe the best known springer's in the world. I'd look for a book on training them as that will be much closer to what your looking for.

Just a thought, have you shot anything for your dog yet? A little trick to getting a flushing dog to be more aggressive and flush harder, let them catch birds on they ground. If you need to pull out some flight feathers, do it. You want them to think they can catch everything on the ground, You will find on wild birds they can't but they'll still try, just shoot the birds they don't catch and they get the bird. The bird is what they want and they are not choosy how they get it.

Work on obedience a lot and on the sit on command, called "hup" command. "Hup" is your control to allow you to catch up with a dog on a track that's leaving you. Once the flushing dog is out of gun range, it's no longer any use to you.

If you can find one in your area, go to a Springer field day and see what their doing. Leave your dog home aand tell them your thinking about getting a springer and wanted to see some work. Don't expect the drive from your lab that you'll see in a springer, also don't expect your lab to be the challenge to train that a hot springer is!

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:38 pm

To each his own.... I'm sure people think I train dogs weird and I'm sure I think other people train dogs weird. If it works it works doesn't matter what people think. Ask 10 people how to train a dog you'll get 9 different answers. I'm sure you'll be fine.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:26 pm

This is my take on it. Some people don't like the book. Some people heard it was a bad book so without reading it they say it is bad too. Some people actually think it is a good book. I have read the book, and I think there is certain parts that can be used in training. Not the whoa part tho, what the heck was he thinking on that one?

I know a lot of people say find one training method and stick with it. I disagree, I want to read lots of books so I have different weapons in my training. No two dogs are the same so why try to train them the same? If all dogs were the same there would be one book and one training method that everybody would use. IMO

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:08 pm

The name is "Wolters" with an "O", not "Walters" with an "A".

Richard Wolters was a professional writer, not a professional trainer of any stripe. He was, IMHO, a really good writer.

I bring this up because there is a training team by the name of "Walters" that wrote a book that I used to train my retriever way back when. It was "Training Retrievers To Handle" by DL and Ann Walters. I was a little older than Bean at the time. It might be good material and it might not. I'm pretty sure that it would be dated.

Another book that I used back then was "Training Your Retriever" by James Lamb Free. The same caveat as above applies.

Bean, here is some advice: If you want to be good at anything, spend some time really studying the top tier of people that really excel at it and then do the things that they have in common.

Best regards, Greg J.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:14 pm

I have only had one retriever (Lab) in my life and I used the James Lamb Free book to train him. He made a good dog in spite of me.

Goosehunterdog · Post by **Goosehunterdog** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:25 pm

I think his books are good but a little out of date.10 Minute Retriever is a good sound book and you can always follow a solid program being SmartWorks Volume 1 Book Evan Graham or Mike Lardy.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:50 pm

Casper wrote:Walters was a retriever trainer.

Wolters was neither a retriever trainer, nor a gun dog trainer. He was a gifter writer that bought a dog, trained it, and wrote a book as he went. That's why both are such pieces of trash. D L Walters book on the other hand is a most excellent book. He and Ann were genuine dog tainers, not writers.

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:33 pm

I guess I am the odd man out, I used Gun Dog and loved the results. I don't swear by the book but I did get some valuable information out of it. Basically I teach my dogs the obedience commands they need, work on them with a wing and let them hunt in their own style, just as long as their style fits well with the team mainly meaning myself.

Lab Man · Post by **Lab Man** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:58 am

There is nothing wrong with Richard Wolters books. There is just better material out there today. Richard Wolters did a very good thing by coming out with some of the first books on retriever training and alot of good hunting dogs came from it. Today there is better training programs out in book and dvd form.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:30 am

Lab Man wrote: Richard Wolters did a very good thing by coming out with some of the first books on retriever training and alot of good hunting dogs came from it.

Wow, you don't agree with most people on this one!! Wolters caused irreparable damage to so many dogs that at one point in time, he was accused of single handidly being responsible for the destruction of the retreiving breed. His main problem was that he had no time lines in his book so everyone though they should begin training on the 49th day and have an FC by the time it was nine months old. One thing I'll say, the man was good for the pro's business. It took a long time to rebuild a Wolters dog.

Lab Man · Post by **Lab Man** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:45 am

At one time his books were all there was to learn about training your retriever. I talk to many people about retriever training, and about 80% of them started there first dog on Wolters methods. Most of them had alright hunting dogs. There is better stuff today and that is why I dont sell his books on my site. Years ago it was better to read his books and train your dog, then to train a dog without any education at all. What Wolters did that was good for retriever training is that more experienced Pro-trainers saw the money that Wolters was making and they came out with books that had a better training programs, but it all started with Wolters.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:12 am

Actually, the first retriever training books were written by James Lamb Free and Charles Morgan. Wolters had pictures.

Lab Man · Post by **Lab Man** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:25 pm

I was under the understanding that Wolters books were out first. Apparently he was a marketing genius because as I said before 80% of the people that I talked to started with his book, and the books are still selling today. Fortunately the retriever world has evolved and alot better training material is out there.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:00 pm

I guess it all depends on what you view as quality in dogs. Some haven't seen enough dogs to know quality from trash. Further, most everyone's dog is "the best dang dog in these here parts". Mainly because they love their dog and have a very small sample.

Wolters knew nothing about proper dog training. He wrote that a wing was a training method. Wings make dogs sight point, nothing else. Wings are a parlor trick to see 8 week old pups point.

Tarrant/Smith, Roebuck, Crangle, Long, Wehle, etc. are all fine books with proven methods. Be assured, if anyone compares the training abilites of Wolters to Delmar Smith or Earl Crangle he also knows little about a "HIGH CLASS BIRDDOG".

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:25 pm

Here's a video that I would think would have some great info. in it...

http://www.gundogsupply.com/pudedvdwiria.html

You can also buy the Wolters' video if you are a glutton for punishment.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:02 pm

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote:I guess it all depends on what you view as quality in dogs. Some haven't seen enough dogs to know quality from trash. Further, most everyone's dog is "the best dang dog in these here parts". Mainly because they love their dog and have a very small sample.

Wolters knew nothing about proper dog training. He wrote that a wing was a training method. Wings make dogs sight point, nothing else. Wings are a parlor trick to see 8 week old pups point.

Tarrant/Smith, Roebuck, Crangle, Long, Wehle, etc. are all fine books with proven methods. Be assured, if anyone compares the training abilites of Wolters to Delmar Smith or Earl Crangle he also knows little about a "HIGH CLASS BIRDDOG".

Right on brother. We have to hang out sometime.

Oh ya, one more thing about dog training books there where many, many, wrote before Wolters ever wrote anything and probably the worst thing you could ever do to a puppy is to take him to a GUN RANGE. This is what wolters says to do to gun break a dog but we have all learned over the years it is the worst thing to do. Maybe some of his books worked for retrievers but they are horriable books for pointing dogs for sure.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:23 pm

I remember one book several years ago where the guy recommended hitting the dog in the head with a cardboard paper towel roller.

Is that the book Y'all are talking about.

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:26 pm

crap, I took my dog to the shooting range

but are you shure it will ruin a dog cause my dog wasnt scared of the noise at all.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:21 pm

I'd say your lucky then. It's the best way to ensure a dog is gunshy IMHO.

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:26 pm

just to be sure I got my cap gun and shot it next to her and she was jumping up and down wagging her tail!

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:48 pm

Friend Bean,

The point is that the introduction should be made very gradually while something is going on that the pup finds incredibly fun. That way, the pup comes to associate the sound with something pleasant.

For the pointing dogs, we do it when they are chasing birds as young pups. While they are in full chase, we shoot a cap or blank pistol when they are 75-100 yards away. I.e., a looonnngg way away. Then we gradually work it in closer.

Sharply ramping up the noise is a bad thing. I've seen young dogs that were just fine with a single gunshot get gunshy from 4 guys unloading their shotguns on a covey.

Best regards, Greg J.

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:23 pm

before we took her to the range for a couple of months shot a cap gun while she was eating so it wasnt like we randomly took her to the range.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:16 pm

Bean,

The point is you took her to the range to hear a gunshot. What everyone is trying to say you shoot when you take her some place to chase birds. That is a big big difference. What you did worked out for you it sounds like but it isn't the smart thing to do. You want the gunshot to be a background occurance rather than the only thing going on.

Ezzy

Brian Edwards · Post by **Brian Edwards** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:18 am

I too purchased the Wolters book for my first bird dog. Didn't know any better. Take that thing and put it on the shelf. I would check out George Hickox or Rick Smith for some sound dog train videos. Or if you can attend one of their seminars.

gr_elliott · Post by **gr_elliott** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:10 am

Gun Dog was the first book I bought when I decided I wanted a pointing breed. Everything seemed fine until I got to the part about whoa training. For some reason yelling and jumping at a dog to scare it into stopping did not seem to add up...even as a rookie i thought there for sure had to be a better way.

and I would hate to be the crazy guy on the block that jumps and yells at dogs

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:41 am

Gun conditioning at the gun range. Worst thing to do - Worked for me. The head to head. Worst to do is often the advice given by folks who have trained numerous dogs either as amateurs or professionals. Worked for me is usually given as advice from the owner of one or two dogs.

Why do we keep hearing it? Because there are always some dogs that you cannot make gunshy no matter what you do to them, short of shooting them, and even then it may not fizz them. Those dogs occur fairly regularly from dogs of good breeding. So, the neophyte who drives to the gun range and stakes his dog out regards his dog as conditioned to the gun.

Unfortunately not all dogs are so genetically blessed. Unfortunately there is no real good way to tell which dogs are and which dogs aren't. So.... fellow takes his dog to the range and spooks it badly. Then the pro or experienced amateur is called upon to try and fix the problem.

With no way of telling which dogs will require a gradual introduction to the gun and which won't untill after the dirty deed is done, the best advice is to always proceed on the side of caution and practice a regimen of gradual introduction. This is far easier than dealing with the dog that lost out on the luck of the draw.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:56 am

I took my dog to the skeet range when she was a pup. Put her and a friend's pup in the bed of my truck and let them go at it. They were parked about 25 feet from 5 of us shooting clays non-stop. She didn't pay us any attention. Looking back on that it was probably the DUMBEST thing I did with her. I didn't know any better, she's my first gun dog. She has never minded a shotgun firing. One thing I know now is that I will NEVER do that with a pup again, even though it "worked for me!"

TheShadow · Post by **TheShadow** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:59 pm

not to bring this back from the dead but a friend of mine has this whole DVD collection of Gun Dog, Water Dog, Game Dog, Top Dog, Top Dog 2, and Family Dog. He got this collection for xmas a few years ago and said it helped him a lot with his lab. But he didn't need Gun Dog DVD as it pertained to pointers.

Are these videos based on this old school techniques? He said the DVDs are up to date in techniques but they use that guy's name Wolters a lot throughout the videos. He told me the videos are kinda a waste because it seems like they just mixed and matched scenes from the various videos on each one... He said Top Dog actually went into ecollar training which he did not like.

He also has the George Hickcox Vol 1-3 on DVD which he found a lot better than that set of "DOGs" DVD. I figure I'd borrow them just to check them out for kicks.

huntoverlabs · Post by **huntoverlabs** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:40 pm

I read and somewhat used his Water dog and Game dog books. I can't say by any means that I followed them, just that I read them and found some good ideas that I could incorporate into my own program. There has been some good advice here already. Every dog is different as well as every trainer. If it's worked for you so far thats good. Are there better or different methods?? Sure, there always are. Just be sure to do the research before you jump into one.